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I know a lot may not agree, but I fully believe A&E always intended us to see Adult Lily at some point. Everything about the episode and the way she was introduced says she was important,the scar on her wrist being the biggest clue. I dont think its poor planning at all. Lily was never intended to be a one-off character, and I think in some interviews they may have said we “might” see her again in the future and here we are now. The only thing we are asking is that a&e be consistent. They casted a young Latina to play her, they should gave casted a Latina adult actress. I’m pretty sure there is no shortage.
I agree. I pegged Lily as being an important, returning character from the instance she was introduced in 4×5 (comparable to Neal being Baelfire). There’s no way the casting department was unaware that Lily would be a returning character. It’s all the more shame then that the casting department didn’t cast someone as Adult Lily who was (1) the same heritage as the actress who played young Lily and (2) looked so different from Nicole Muñoz. If the casting department had just cast a dark-haired actress of Latino or even of Mediterranean (rather than Northern or Eastern European) heritage, then I doubt we’d be having this conversation now.
[adrotate group="5"]"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
I think I said this before, but I think when Breaking Glass aired, Adam and Eddy might have been working through the details of 4B but nothing concrete.
I suspect adult Lily and Zelena returning are examples of last minute story ideas. They might have wanted to bring Lily back but were still working on the details for how.
Last minute story changes happen a lot in soaps, which often film stuff three weeks before actual air date. Story line change all the time for whatever reason, there could be an issue with the actor or the writers got a last-minute bright idea they really wanted the pursue.
Which the latter would explain why mini Lilly and adult Lily look different.
whitewashing is whitewashing regardless of “explanation” tbh
They had to be aware of what they were doing.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
Hispanic is an ethnicity and not a race. Over 50 percent of US Hispanics consider themselves to be caucasian. Nicole Munoz’ ethnicity is Canadian and she is caucasian. Her Canadian ethnicity doesn’t mean that a Canadian has to play an older Lily nor does it make the character Lily Canadian anymore than it makes her Hispanic.
Keeper of Pandora's Box & The Yellow Brick Road.
Hispanic is an ethnicity and not a race. Over 50 percent of US Hispanics consider themselves to be caucasian. Nicole Munoz’ ethnicity is Canadian and she is caucasian. Her Canadian ethnicity doesn’t mean that a Canadian has to play an older Lily nor does it make the character Lily Canadian anymore than it makes her Hispanic.
Race is such a fuzzy concept concerning differentiation of humans into groups, that it is rather useless, and there is no single clear definition in science, different from what most of you probably have been led to believe even at school. In biological taxonomy the term race plays by now not much of a role. As used for the differentiation of humans it has rather little to do with biological, genetic variation, with genotype and phenotype. Race is a social construct, one focusing to differentiate people on assumed genetic differences based on more or less visible differences in appearance, and it is very idiologically charged.
Ethnic group is the less narrow and taken as a less problematic term, as a group of people identified (or who identify with each other) on grounds of shared ancestral, social, cultural experience. Sometimes used aligned with nationality or people, but that is difficult seeing the changes of borders and national entities over time (like in Canada would have at least to differentiate between Euro-Canadians and aboriginal Canadians, First Nations, when talking about ethnic groups). Ethnic group is the term used usually by social scientist. But it has to be noted, that the distinction between ethnic groups is as wide open for debate, and that how outsiders, like social scientists or anthropologists identify people’s or individual’s ethnic group might differ from how these persons identify themselves.
The United States Census Bureau uses 5 categories for “race” (American Indian or Alaskan Native, Asian, Black or African American, Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander, White) and for those not sure or not finding themselves in one of these, the additional category “some other” and a category for mixed. And there are 2 categories for ethnic groups (Hispanic or Latino, Not Hispanic or Latino). Quite confusing, but they stuck to it for a while to have a certain comparability of data over the years and decades. What is important, those are no scientific categories but of self-identification. The Bureau describes the category White for example as “person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa”, Black/African American as ” person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa”. (source), which is a bit of a mix of “old” racial definitions and more modern regional approaches. It leaves though out anyone with origins in Middle or South America, which have a mix of ethnic origins as well, to make it more complicate. Thus the Census offers additionally to define as either Hispanic/Latino or not regardless the answer in the categories of “race. It was noted by the Bureau, that among those marking the category “some other” in “race” most defined themselves with Hispanic ethnic group. But also people with Arab background or people of mixed ethnic background find the existing categories of “race” not representing them. Hispanic as ethnic group might not be that good for discussing social issues though either, it indeed puts people with some very diverse backgrounds into one big box and is itself ignorant to social and ethnics issue in the societies of Middle and South America. I highly doubt that people would think of someone with a more obvious native ancestry background at first or of someone with more African ancestry when hearing the word Hispanic.
In other words: In biology race is no scientific proved classification as subcategory of the human species, and barely used anymore. In social science Hispanic/Latino is as much an ethnic group and social construct as is Black/African American. In political discussions it depends on what position you want to take, if someone thinks, that reactions to people perceived as Hispanic/Latino might very well have signs of racism, or if someone doesn’t see it as that.
If we would live in a post-utopian world, where such social concepts as gender and race would be things we’d known only from history books, I might agree, that it wouldn’t matter much. Aside of course that anyway it might be difficult to see in the chosen adult actor the teenage actor they first cast playing the character, because of difference in expected looks. But we don’t live in a post-utopian world. In our present world a lack of diversity, of representation is an issue on screen, in entertainment, behind and before the cam, in TV and movie business (and in other places, but let’s stick to screen for here)
The casting of adult Lily is remarkable – and not in a good sense. They have cast a different type in looks for young Lily than they now did cast for adult Lily, and yes, looks do still matter, despite that ethnic group is a social concept. Right, makeup can do a lot of wonders, but why make that effort.
The casting can be perceived as whitewashing. I don’t care that much, why the casting and show runners actually might have made the choice they made, if it was some time pressure or short term planning, lack of available actress, whatever. I think it is mostly save to assume they didn’t do it out of openly practiced racist reasoning, but racism is something working subtle, often enough not directly intended but nevertheless happening. It’s working as social bias likely no one is all free of, that’s why it is even more so important to become aware of where this social concept can take hold in subliminal ways.
I didn’t understand pointing out the issue people have with this casting as saying, the show runners did it all on purpose even, but they obviously didn’t care enough about it to stay closer to the looks of young Lily in their casting. Ignorance is here problematic on its own, doesn’t have to be plain open racism.
Not to mention it could have given an actress with Hispanic self identification, who sure is used to some stupid typecasting and would be happy to get a different role, a chance to play a different role, and I am sure there a plenty good ones. They struggle enough to get good jobs. It’s no just about representation on screen, it is as much about more diversity in the cast and crew.
¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯
I’m not going to get into paragraph upon paragraph when the facts are very straightforward.
Nicole Munoz identifies herself as a Caucasian Canadian who is fluent in our two languages, french & English. We don’t get to redefine her based on hypothesis. If she identifies her biology as Caucasian and her ethnicity as Canadian, then who are any of us to question that?
How about we stop looking for problems or issues where there are none.
Keeper of Pandora's Box & The Yellow Brick Road.
It’s possible that when the casting department were given the description of adult Lily, they were only told she was Maleficent’s long lost daughter so they looked for an actress that bared a resemblance to Mal’s actress which is how they found Agnes then realised after hiring that adult Lily was supposed to be the same Lily from Emma’s past hence why they then tried to make Agnes look more like young Lily.
The casting department has made mistakes before. For example, with Cinderella’s baby. They had to find an “Alex” not realising Alex was short for Alexandra and produced a boy baby instead of a girl.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixPersonally, from what I’ve seen of the sneak peeks and the pics, I think they’ve done a great job making Agnes Bruckner look like an adult version of younger Lily. Seems to have the same feisty attitude as well.
Keeper of Pandora's Box & The Yellow Brick Road.
For what its worth, Nicole Munoz is referred to as a Canadian Latina in this interview.
Again, for what it’s all worth to the thread.
How about we stop looking for problems or issues where there are none.
I….we……hmm.
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICIt’s possible that when the casting department were given the description of adult Lily, they were only told she was Maleficent’s long lost daughter so they looked for an actress that bared a resemblance to Mal’s actress which is how they found Agnes then realised after hiring that adult Lily was supposed to be the same Lily from Emma’s past hence why they then tried to make Agnes look more like young Lily.
The casting department has made mistakes before. For example, with Cinderella’s baby. They had to find an “Alex” not realising Alex was short for Alexandra and produced a boy baby instead of a girl.
Wouldn’t be surprised if that was what happened, especially when they use code names for these casting calls. In this case, Adult Lily was cast under the name “Autumn.” If this is the case, they clearly need better communication between the showrunners and casting department.
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