Time For The Villains To Get Their Happy Ending

[PriceofMagic]

Some may say Rumple is further down the road to redemption even though he has been seen to follow his old ways every now and then but that’s fine since he is changing into a better person and with any sort of change its slow and gradual and there will be bumps along the road. Why can’t the same ‘allowance’ be given to Regina. Why is it that as soon as Regina slips up Oncers seem to forget the ‘good’ she has done and focus on the ‘bad’ meanwhile Rumple is given a different sort of reasoning that places him above her (talking in general terms). If your going to judge one character judge the others in the same way or else it will all be for nought.

The difference between Rumple and Regina is that Rumple takes responsibility for his actions. Regina blames others for her bad deeds. For example, when Regina is massacring villages and burning down homes, she blames Snow for the peasants not loving her. Regina is capable of redemption, she started making progress in early season 2, but since then she has blamed everybody else for anything that has gone wrong for her, instead of taking into account that she may have had a hand in it herself.

Regina’s redemption can’t be based on whether or not everybody loves her and never brings up her past again. It needs to be based on how she chooses to not be the person she was, how she chooses to make the right choice even if she doesn’t benefit from it, and how she strives to be a better person even though it is hard and difficult and sometimes she may stumble. Regina trying to find the author of the book and force them to write her a happy ending is not Regina redeeming herself, it’s Regina trying to take a shortcut. It’s like Little Red Hen Syndrome, Regina wants to eat the bread without helping to make it in any way, or in other words, Regina wants the reward without putting in the hard work required to obtain that reward.

Regina is making progress in some areas of redemption, such as she is rebuilding her relationship with Snow and healing their past, so points to Regina for that. However in other areas Regina isn’t making any redemption progress at all such as in her treatment of Marian. Regina killed her in the original timeline, at the very least locked her up and kept her prisoner until Emma freed her, and Regina is now planning to get rid of Marian because Regina wants Robin all for herself.

Let us not forget the other main villain (of sorts) in this show Hook. The writers have shown a great deal of change and goodness in Regina and Rumple, in Hook it appears to me as if they have barely or partially shown any of this and have decided to fast forward his redemption and just hand him his happy ending on a golden plate. We have not really seen him go through the turmoil Regina and Rumple have experienced and it very much irritates me as it would be good to have an insight into that side of Hook’s character which I think has been skipped.

This I agree on. We haven’t seen Hook struggle as much as Regina and Rumple, though at the moment we haven’t really seen the full extent of his bad deeds yet to determine whether he has done stuff as bad as Regina and Rumple.

Here’s something that I don’t believe has been brought up, but Rumple killing Zelena as vengeance for Neal is actually history repeating itself. After all, Rumple killed Tamara for thinking she killed Neal, too. The main difference is there was no lying to Belle involved. However, Rumple still killed a defenseless woman, and one who was already dying. But of course that will never be brought up because none of the characters mourn Tamara, nor do the writers clearly care to say anything more about her. Heck, fans actually cheered Rumple on once he did that due to Tamara being a very unpopular character. Neal never even found out, and he was the one engaged to her.

This is a good point. Nobody gave Rumple a hard time over Tamara, yet people are giving him the side eye over Zelena. This could all be to do with the fact that Tamara wasn’t fleshed out beyond Neal’s cheating fiancée whereas Zelena got a backstory and was fleshed out more.

Also I thought Neal was present when Tinkerbell revealed that GOAT were dead because she got the watch off the body and spent hours scrubbing blood off of it? It would’ve been nice to see Neal show some sort of emotion over Tamara’s death considering he was going to marry her, instead it seems like his reaction was “meh, whatever!”

We generally are more understanding if we like a person, or a character, more willing to find good explanations, see that they are trying though maybe failing, we usually struggle to call a person out for bad stuff without fuss or quibble if we like them. The more we like a person, even identify with them, the less likely we will convict, condemn them, or at least if then we go for a lenient sentence.

I agree and think this is why Rumple, Regina and Hook can literally get away with murder. We like them, we want them to succeed. We all have our favourites and that is why we don’t like any character that is in opposition to our favourite. For example, we like Cinderella less than Rumple. We like Zelena less than Regina and Rumple. I hated season 2 Hook because Rumple was my favourite.

Eventually though, when pushed too hard to feel sympathy, the opposite can happen as well, it is felt as forced, unearned, the person/character becomes disliked. When disliked a person has to do so much more to get (back) on our good side.

I agree. I think this was Zelena’s main problem. The writers were trying to push us to feel sorry for Zelena in the episode “it’s not easy being green” and it didn’t work. Zelena just came off as whiny and spoilt. However Zelena came across a little more sympathetic in the episode Kansas when Glinda let Dorothy sit in Zelena’s chair. Zelena thought she had found acceptance and instead she suddenly found she was being passed over for Dorothy. It still wasn’t enough for me to care that Zelena was killed because of her present day actions especially towards Rumple.

[RumplesGirl]

Also I thought Neal was present when Tinkerbell revealed that GOAT were dead because she got the watch off the body and spent hours scrubbing blood off of it? It would’ve been nice to see Neal show some sort of emotion over Tamara’s death considering he was going to marry her, instead it seems like his reaction was “meh, whatever!”

He wasn’t. Tink revealed to the gang that in 304, Neal did not join the gang until 306, and even then at the very last bit. And after 304 Tamara wasn’t brought up again.

 

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Epona_610]

First of all redemption is subjective it will never mean the same thing for two people regardless. Most of the terrible things Regina has done that Epona mentioned were committed during the first season of OUAT when Regina was the Evil Queen, since then it is undoubtable that she is ‘trying’ in some way to be a better person like when she was able to use light magic so in that sense is she all bad with no good at all in any way.  

So…they were committed two years ago, so they don’t matter? She’s never taken responsibility for them and she straight-up doesn’t regret them! Trying (at least when people are looking) to be a better person doesn’t mean much when she’s never apologized or expressed any kind of understanding why what she did before was wrong. And look at how she is when no one’s watching, how she treated Sidney in this most recent episode…that doesn’t seem like she’s even trying anymore. We’ve at least seen some semblance of regret from both Rumple and Hook during their pretty heartfelt apologies to Bae and “Ariel” respectively, and in their actions as well.

Let us not forget the other main villain (of sorts)  in this show Hook. The writers have shown a great deal of change and goodness in Regina and Rumple, in Hook it appears to me as if they have barely or partially  shown any of this and have decided to fast forward his redemption and just hand him his happy ending on a golden plate. We have not really seen him go through the turmoil Regina and Rumple have experienced and it very much irritates me as it would be good to have an insight into that side of Hook’s character which I think has been skipped.

Well this should spark quite a bit of debate, haha. My view of this is that first of all, Hook’s crimes weren’t remotely on the same level as either Rumple’s or Regina’s. Unless I’m forgetting something, the only actual murders we’ve seen from him are the two guards in Regina’s castle in 209 (and from what we’ve seen of Regina’s black knights, they were pretty horrible people). He might’ve killed Blackbeard (no body though), but that wasn’t just an unprovoked murder; they both agreed to a duel. The worst thing he did, IMO, was hit Belle and almost kill her in 209. But of course she didn’t actually die, so there’s that, and he technically apologized in 315 (admittedly it was a lousy apology, more of a question than a statement) but then he did follow through and stick around to defend her right after that.

And let’s talk motivation–I honestly cannot blame the guy for wanting to get some kind of justice for the woman he loved, who was murdered by the same man who then permanently maimed him and suffered no consequences. Not that he went about it the right way of course, but at least I can understand and sympathize more with that than, say, choosing power over your son and then throwing an entire group of people under the bus to undo your mistake or blaming a child for something that was not remotely her fault and spending the next who-kn0ws-how-many years tormenting her. And while he did some awful things in pursuit of said revenge, he didn’t murder entire villages or create or cast curses that “devastated an entire population”.

And as for actually demonstrating regret, let’s see…pretty much all of his actions from the end of 222 through Neverland involved him making great personal sacrifices and taking huge risks in order to save a child he didn’t even know in an effort to make amends for wrongs against both Bae and Emma. Of course we did see some backsliding in the EF, in that whole thing with Ariel and Blackbeard. Now personally I don’t understand that situation; it makes no sense at all. But without getting in to that, he gave “Ariel” one of the most heartbreaking and sincere apologies we’ve seen on the show (for not agreeing to give up literally everything he had and most likely the possibility of rebuilding in order to save a stranger’s boyfriend when, it turns out, said stranger was capable of saving him herself all along…right, sorry I couldn’t resist getting into it a bit), which somehow led to his being cursed (another issue I have: how is confessing to something, then apologizing and wishing you could take it back “selfish”?)

So most of that seemed like a fair amount of turmoil to me (and if speculation/rumors are true, there’ll be some more “turmoil” coming up when he and Rumple are at odds with each other again). And he doesn’t exactly have a happy ending at the moment either. So to sum up…it’s far easier for me to accept Hook as having turned around because (a) he has done far fewer and far less severe acts of “villainy” and (b) he has consistently expressed remorse in both words and actions. I guess I see Rumple as farther along the road than Regina because at least he has started to take a bit of responsibility for what he’s done (although apparently he still feels justified in having murdered his wife and mother of his son because she hurt his feelings; I’ve seen no inkling of acknowledgement at all that that was wrong.) With Regina I get no sense that she even believes that her past actions were wrong at all, just that she was and is misunderstood and thinks that everyone she’s done immense and irreversible harm to should forgive her (you know, just like how she forgave Snow for being duped by Cora and doing what she actually thought was right by Regina. Oh wait…)

[RumplesGirl]

The worst thing he did, IMO, was hit Belle and almost kill her in 209.

I won’t dwell because…heh…but I will just point out that he also shot her in The Outsider, 211. That’s why Belle remarks that he tried to kill her, twice.

He might’ve killed Blackbeard (no body though), but that wasn’t just an unprovoked murder; they both agreed to a duel.

They did agree to a duel, but Blackbeard lost and was already defeated. Hook killed him (yes he died, the bubbly sharks ate him) to get back his ship.

As to you overall point: are Hook’s crimes on the same level? Objectively, no. But a lot of that is also because we don’t know the full extent of his crimes. We know that he did something to “Rufio” and that he was doing “Pan’s dirty work” but outside of allusions, we don’t know what those are. It’s only speculation and we will most likely not get into it, in universe.

 

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[PriceofMagic]

As to you overall point: are Hook’s crimes on the same level? Objectively, no. But a lot of that is also because we don’t know the full extent of his crimes. We know that he did something to “Rufio” and that he was doing “Pan’s dirty work” but outside of allusions, we don’t know what those are. It’s only speculation and we will most likely not get into it, in universe.

I don’t blame Hook for keeping his ship and saying no to Ariel, I actually supported his decision. I thought Ariel was being a little unreasonable to expect him to give up everything to help her find Eric when a) that was the first time they met and b) Eric was fine and Ariel was able to find him anyway without Hook’s help. Hook obviously felt guilty about that and he apologised sincerely to “Ariel” but really, he did what any reasonable person would do which is not risk everything on a small chance. Ariel seemed to expect Hook to be like Snow and drop everything to help her.

As for what was the “dirty work” Hook did for Pan, I think Hook may have drowned Tigerlily and killed Rufio on Pan’s orders.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[RumplesGirl]

RumplesGirl wrote:

As to you overall point: are Hook’s crimes on the same level? Objectively, no. But a lot of that is also because we don’t know the full extent of his crimes. We know that he did something to “Rufio” and that he was doing “Pan’s dirty work” but outside of allusions, we don’t know what those are. It’s only speculation and we will most likely not get into it, in universe.

I don’t blame Hook for keeping his ship and saying no to Ariel, I actually supported his decision. I thought Ariel was being a little unreasonable to expect him to give up everything to help her find Eric when a) that was the first time they met and b) Eric was fine and Ariel was able to find him anyway without Hook’s help. Hook obviously felt guilty about that and he apologised sincerely to “Ariel” but really, he did what any reasonable person would do which is not risk everything on a small chance. Ariel seemed to expect Hook to be like Snow and drop everything to help her. As for what was the “dirty work” Hook did for Pan, I think Hook may have drowned Tigerlily and killed Rufio on Pan’s orders.

I didn’t pass any judgement on Hook for it. I was merely pointing out the events as they happened on screen.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[PriceofMagic]

I wish Neverland had been a full season arc because then they would’ve had time to show more Storybrooke and also answer all the unanswered questions.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[RumplesGirl]

I wish Neverland had been a full season arc because then they would’ve had time to show more Storybrooke and also answer all the unanswered questions.

*twitch* Where did Pan get the scroll of Henry *twitch*

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[PriceofMagic]

PriceofMagic wrote:

I wish Neverland had been a full season arc because then they would’ve had time to show more Storybrooke and also answer all the unanswered questions.

*twitch* Where did Pan get the scroll of Henry *twitch*

What did Baelfire do in Neverland?
How did Tinkerbell get to Neverland?
What is Felix’s story? How did he get that scar?
What was the dirty work Hook had to do for Pan?
How did the darlings get back to Neverland?
What was the deal with the shadow? Why could it talk in 308 but not in any other episode?
Why did Hook kill Rufio?
Why was Tinkerbell supposedly trusted by Pan?
Why did Felix hope he’d never see Baelfire again?
Was Wendy locked in the cage the entire time of her stay in Neverland?
Why was it always dark in Neverland during present day but not in flashbacks?
How did Hook and his crew end up in the echo caves?
What was Ariel doing in Neverland?
How did Baelfire escape Neverland?
How did Baelfire not know Wendy was in Neverland?

All of these questions could’ve been answered if the Neverland arc had the time of a full season or a spinoff.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[Epona_610]

I won’t dwell because…heh…but I will just point out that he also shot her in The Outsider, 211. That’s why Belle remarks that he tried to kill her, twice.

Ah yes…I don’t think he was trying to kill her. Immediately after it happened, he said “Oh fear not; she’ll live!” It seemed like he fully intended to shoot her only so she’d fall over the line and forget Rumple. (Not that that’s okay, of course! As far as I’m concerned, he still has a lot of work to do to make amends to Belle at this point. However, I don’t see the two of them hanging out a lot since she’s married to someone he hates with a passion.)

They did agree to a duel, but Blackbeard lost and was already defeated. Hook killed him (yes he died, the bubbly sharks ate him) to get back his ship.  

Well sure, but Blackbeard told him to “finish it!” It seemed to me that they both went in with the full understanding that this was a fight to the death…I mean it still wasn’t the right thing to do, but I understand it. Oh, and I say “might have” for two reasons–first of all, Ariel went right in after him and I think it would’ve been smart of her to save him and get him to tell her where Eric was, although I guess Zelena said she just went and looked for him? I don’t remember for sure. Secondly, I like the popular theory that it was Blackbeard to whom Hook traded the Jolly Roger for the bean–mostly just because as far as I can recall, he’s the only person who we know wanted the ship pretty badly. Also he did show up again in 321, like they didn’t want us to forget about him. Or they just thought it was fun to have someone look and dress like Disney’s Captain Hook again. Also though…why the heck were those sharks so bubbly? Haha.

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