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Regina lost not only her true love a second time, her mother was killed, her sister was killed, she had to give her son up more times than I can count, sacrificed her own happy ending to save the people she cursed, then lost her soul mate, her very last chance at happiness! The Villains have PAID their dues! An eye for an eye, well all of that is paid now….Storybrooke has seen them suffer for their sins! Now it’s the time to cut print and move on! Villains deserve their chance at happiness, since they’ve clearly paid a heavy price for their wrong.
Wait, really? You think everything is settled in terms of “an eye for an eye”? While I don’t think that that’s the right way to go about redemption or justice in the first place (to quote Gandhi, “an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind”), Regina would have to die many, many times over for that to be the case. I mean, you really think she’s made up for this?:
Or this? (The bones of the children she sent in to get the apple from the blind witch):
I could go on, obviously, but those are, as far as I recall, the largest death tolls she’s wrought in terms of sheer numbers. “An eye for an eye” would entail her being murdered as payment for every murder she’s committed, so it’s really not even close there.
Okay, I had a couple more paragraphs here, but I got rid of them because that’s the crux of what I’m saying. I just don’t know how you can make up for all of that (and so much more), I guess.
[adrotate group="5"]Regina lost not only her true love a second time, her mother was killed, her sister was killed, she had to give her son up more times than I can count, sacrificed her own happy ending to save the people she cursed, then lost her soul mate, her very last chance at happiness! The Villains have PAID their dues! An eye for an eye, well all of that is paid now….Storybrooke has seen them suffer for their sins! Now it’s the time to cut print and move on! Villains deserve their chance at happiness, since they’ve clearly paid a heavy price for their wrong.
Wait, really? You think everything is settled in terms of “an eye for an eye”? While I don’t think that that’s the right way to go about redemption or justice in the first place (to quote Gandhi, “an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind”), Regina would have to die many, many times over for that to be the case. I mean, you really think she’s made up for this?:
Or this? (The bones of the children she sent in to get the apple from the blind witch):
I could go on, obviously, but those are, as far as I recall, the largest death tolls she’s wrought in terms of sheer numbers. “An eye for an eye” would entail her being murdered as payment for every murder she’s committed, so it’s really not even close there. Okay, I had a couple more paragraphs here, but I got rid of them because that’s the crux of what I’m saying. I just don’t know how you can make up for all of that (and so much more), I guess.
Oh…yes! What Regina has done, and what she was willing to do has made up for that! It’s Oncers who have such a high expectation line such as Regina having to die over and over, makes it seem like there is nothing she can do to ever make up for what she has done! If self sacrifice won’t do it…then what’s the point in redemption anyway? Might as well go out with a bang if people will always bring up the past, and never look at the many great deeds you’ve done to try and make up for it.
The moments where Regina was willing to sacrifice her own life to save the very people she cursed/terrorized should have been where the line of redemption was halfway met! However, the moment Regina sacrificed her happy ending to save the very people she cursed/terrorized, was when the road to redemption to Evil Regals was completed! She’s paid for her sins in more ways than ANY one else! So yes…Regina made up for the massacre…which as far as we know until shown otherwise, could have been her only one.
Also….For the last time….Regina didn’t bind the children up and shove them in the Witch’s House!!! She gave them an option that they could’ve said NO to. Because believe it or not, Regina never killed children, hence why we don’t see any in that Massacre photo! Regina offered the children something they couldn’t refuse because if they had, they’d be alive today. And before anyone bring up Hansel and Gretel…nine times out of ten, Regina would have released the children had they politely declined her offer, but nooo….Gretel and Hansel had to mouth off and call Regina a “monster” after she gave them one of the highest rewarding offers. She may would have even given their father had they just asked for that, while politely declining her offer. Had those children shown any form of respect, and in a polite manner…they wouldn’t have landed where they did!
And by the way…an eye for an eye did happen to Regina, as just as she took away true loves, mother, father, siblings….her own mother, father, sibling, true love taken away twice, and now her soulmate was taken from her, not to mention she suffered being hated by her only son, So yeah…Regina paid the price for her sins! And like Ruby said….the Dark Curse took away more bad memories than good for some people, and Regina did some people a favor…hence everyone loves Storybrooke.
Oh yeah, and @Epona….just read your comment on the last page so here, watch the scene!
“It Was Prophesied!”
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
Regina has been through a lot of pain, but she caused a lot more. Her idea of a happy ending was to tear families apart (Jefferson & Grace, the Charmings and Emma, Abigail and Frederick, and yes, Hansel & Gretel and their father, Geppetto and Pinocchio–all were separated by the curse for 28 years, and if she’d had her way, it would have been perpetual). She may not have killed kids directly, but she definitely orphaned Owen–and that’s a kid she liked. She also killed Snow’s father, orphaning her own stepdaughter. Her parents died, yes, but recall that she actively killed her father and sent Hook as a hitman for her mother–and then tried to kill Cora again when she discovered Cora was trying to get to Storybrooke. Yeah, her sister was taken from her, but she spent a year of her life trying to, in her own words, destroy Zelena first, and suggested that she’d happily kill the woman multiple times–including during their last meeting when she offered Zelena a second chance.
In her time as the Evil Queen, she killed rather indiscriminately. She’s hurt just about everyone in town in one way or another, many of them on flimsy excuses about their hurting her first, but many just because. (Like, her insurance policy with Belle–who never did anything to her.)
Yes, she has changed significantly and grown a lot, and the heroes who matter to our story (our main cast) have mostly accepted her as a fellow hero at this point. That’s a lot to ask of people she hurt, lied to, tried to kill, killed relatives/friends of, imprisoned, tortured, etc etc etc. Her spurts of heroism are indeed worthy of admiration, but they alone do not atone for all her evils. Redemption is a bumpy road. Obviously, reality is not much of a barrier in this world of Once and there’s no reason not to love Regina (or Rumple, whose rap-sheet is just as bad) in spite of her flaws, or even because of them. But if she were properly tried for even one of the many murders she’s committed, the death penalty would be considered quite reasonable in many real societies (and even was almost applied in her own at one point).
She’s going to have to go a lot further than a few sacrificial moments of heroism and a couple of apologies to truly atone for her crimes. And I want to see that happen. I’d like to see her really earn a happy ending. She can’t earn it by taking it from someone else, though–that was always her mistake, believing that was the only way to get one.
Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing
That’s a lot to ask of people she hurt, lied to, tried to kill, killed relatives/friends of, imprisoned, tortured, etc etc etc. Her spurts of heroism are indeed worthy of admiration, but they alone do not atone for all her evils. Redemption is a bumpy road. Obviously, reality is not much of a barrier in this world of Once and there’s no reason not to love Regina (or Rumple, whose rap-sheet is just as bad) in spite of her flaws, or even because of them. But if she were properly tried for even one of the many murders she’s committed, the death penalty would be considered quite reasonable in many real societies (and even was almost applied in her own at one point). She’s going to have to go a lot further than a few sacrificial moments of heroism and a couple of apologies to truly atone for her crimes. And I want to see that happen. I’d like to see her really earn a happy ending. She can’t earn it by taking it from someone else, though–that was always her mistake, believing that was the only way to get one.
And alas…the line never ends. Nothing never seems good enough…and if what Regina has done so far isn’t enough to get her the redemption badge, then nothing never will be. This is the exact reason Regina even wants to rewrite the book in the first place, it’s not just because of Robin, it’s because people will never let her past go, and accept her for who she is now in present day! As long as that book labels her as a villain, that’s what everyone will forever think of her as no matter what she does!
#ReginaChangeTheBook!
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
As long as that book labels her as a villain, that’s what everyone will forever think of her as no matter what she does!
Not the book is labeling Regina a villain, her doings qualified her as such. That will never change, unless someone goes back in time and stops Regina from doing any of the terrible things she did. The book only records what has happened. Regina has been a villain. Will she stay a villain? That is up to her, what she is doing now. Can she have a happy ending of some sorts? Yes, she can. Again, that is up to her and what she is doing. It might not be quite the happy ending she is dreaming of, not a living happily ever after with Robin maybe, or maybe it will even, but that is nothing the book or fates destines, that is what she will make of whatever life is throwing at her.
Will others ever see anything different in her than the villain? Snow quite sure doesn’t see her just as villain, nor does Emma. They see either a woman who suffered as well or one of Henry’s mothers. Do they forget Regina has been a villain? No, and why should they. Forgiving doesn’t mean one has to forget. Have they forgiven? I am not sure about that, and not sure if they should, but that is sure very open for different views.
I prefer it to be Regina’s own ability, powers, insights to take her to a happy ending and not let some pixie dust, book or fate be responsible for it.
¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯
Also….For the last time….Regina didn’t bind the children up and shove them in the Witch’s House!!! She gave them an option that they could’ve said NO to. Because believe it or not, Regina never killed children, hence why we don’t see any in that Massacre photo! Regina offered the children something they couldn’t refuse because if they had, they’d be alive today. And before anyone bring up Hansel and Gretel…nine times out of ten, Regina would have released the children had they politely declined her offer, but nooo….Gretel and Hansel had to mouth off and call Regina a “monster” after she gave them one of the highest rewarding offers. She may would have even given their father had they just asked for that, while politely declining her offer. Had those children shown any form of respect, and in a polite manner…they wouldn’t have landed where they did!
I disagree. The children didn’t have a choice. This wasn’t a choice of “do you want fries with that?” this was “do as I ask or you’ll never see your loved one again”. Regina kidnapped Hansel and Gretel’s father to force them into working for her. They tried to run away from her but she went after them. Regina had a reputation as “the evil queen” amongst the peasants. You can bet your bottom dollar that the children knew this, that it would’ve been instilled in them to stay out of the evil queen’s way and that if you ever crossed her path be as polite and courteous as possible and she might just let you live. Hansel and Gretel were not at fault, Regina was. Regina is not an innocent victim.
Regina can’t erase her past but she has to take responsibility for it. She can’t ever truly redeem herself if she always blames others and doesn’t own up to her past mistakes. Regina had a choice, she always had a choice. She may have been tempted by others to choose one path over the other but they didn’t force her down that road. Regina CHOSE to follow the path of vengeance, she CHOSE to learn magic from Rumple, she CHOSE to send children into the blind witch’s house without telling them exactly what awaited them in there. Do you really think any child would’ve willingly agreed to set foot into a house where it’s inhabitant was likely to eat them? None of the children had free choice.
I do think the heroes need to treat both Regina and Rumple better. Whenever something goes wrong, they always blame those two first. Their line of thinking seems to go: “Something bad has happened, it must be Regina! Oh it’s not Regina?…. in that case it must be Rumple! Oh it’s not Rumple either?………Well we’re stumped” The heroes never seem to consider someone else could be to blame.
Regina can redeem herself but it is something she has to work for, she can’t just demand a quick fix. She also has to understand that she’s not going to be loved by everyone. She has done terrible things in her past and hurt people, they’re not going to be so loving and forgiving towards her. Regina has to strive to be a better person regardless of what those around her feel, she needs to be good for the sake of being good, not because she expects something in return. Redemption is not like a game of monopoly where she can pass go and collect £200, she can’t just tick off a bad deed by doing a good deed. Regina needs to stop flip flopping just because someone says they don’t like her. Regina shouldn’t get points just because she hasn’t killed someone for x number of days.
Regina’s redemption is an ongoing thing and probably something she will have to continue striving for for the rest of her life, Rumple too. Both of them have done terrible things but there is no clear finish line for them. They can make amends for their past misdeeds, they can prove themselves to be better people than they were in the past, but whether or not they are forgiven is up to their victims not themselves. They can’t cash in sympathy points and declare themselves redeemed.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixNote: This post ended up being way longer than I expected…sorry about that! 😛
Oh yeah, and @Epona….just read your comment on the last page so here, watch the scene! “It Was Prophesied!”
To get this out of the way first, I guess my interpretation of that was that it was prophesied that Regina and Robin were soul mates, but not necessarily that they would definitely end up together. Like if they did they’d definitely be happy, but not that it would absolutely happen. But I can definitely see what you mean too.
Oh…yes! What Regina has done, and what she was willing to do has made up for that! It’s Oncers who have such a high expectation line such as Regina having to die over and over, makes it seem like there is nothing she can do to ever make up for what she has done! If self sacrifice won’t do it…then what’s the point in redemption anyway? Might as well go out with a bang if people will always bring up the past, and never look at the many great deeds you’ve done to try and make up for it.
I didn’t say I thought she had to die over and over, I was just pointing out that the idea that Regina has paid for her crimes “an eye for an eye” was simply not true. I also said that that’s not a good way to go about expecting justice anyway–I think most of the characters would be dead by now if that were the standard! 🙂
The moments where Regina was willing to sacrifice her own life to save the very people she cursed/terrorized should have been where the line of redemption was halfway met! However, the moment Regina sacrificed her happy ending to save the very people she cursed/terrorized, was when the road to redemption to Evil Regals was completed! She’s paid for her sins in more ways than ANY one else!
Yes, I think that part at the end of season two was her best moment; however, she was only in that position because she had retrieved and planned to activate the failsafe (taking Henry and leaving everyone else to die). She got herself into that mess. And when she let Henry go in 311, it was because that was the only way to save everyone–including herself–from Pan’s new version of the curse. She didn’t choose to make a sacrifice; that “price” was again the consequence of her having cast the curse in the first place.
Also, I take issue with the idea that she’s paid for her crimes more than anyone else–Rumplestiltskin lost his son after all, and Regina still has hers. (Although apparently that’s not good enough anymore.)
So yes…Regina made up for the massacre…which as far as we know until shown otherwise, could have been her only one. Also….For the last time….Regina didn’t bind the children up and shove them in the Witch’s House!!! She gave them an option that they could’ve said NO to. Because believe it or not, Regina never killed children, hence why we don’t see any in that Massacre photo! Regina offered the children something they couldn’t refuse because if they had, they’d be alive today. And before anyone bring up Hansel and Gretel…nine times out of ten, Regina would have released the children had they politely declined her offer, but nooo….Gretel and Hansel had to mouth off and call Regina a “monster” after she gave them one of the highest rewarding offers. She may would have even given their father had they just asked for that, while politely declining her offer. Had those children shown any form of respect, and in a polite manner…they wouldn’t have landed where they did!
Okay, now I have lots of problems with this statement…first of all, if your defense for having massacred an entire village is “that was the only one”, well, that’s not much of a defense. And just because you don’t see any children’s bodies (which I imagine would get rid of the show’s PG rating) doesn’t mean there aren’t any–there had to have been some children in the village (and in fact we see some at the beginning of the episode) and her exact words to her black knights were “Kill them all. No mercy.” Oh, and she had every intention of murdering newborn Emma; she only failed because of the wardrobe. (“Well, it looks like getting rid of a baby just made my to-do list,” ep 309.)
And as for the Blind Witch and all of the children’s bones–you said that Regina “didn’t bind them up and shove them in the witch’s house”. No, but she might as well have. She kidnapped Hansel and Gretel’s father, and would’ve had them all killed if they didn’t go in after the apple–she said as much when they ran from her and she said that was foolish but brave “and that bravery may just have saved you and your family’s lives”. Then she said she’d only “find” their father (in her dungeons…) if they did her a favor. And then instead of actually keeping her promise (a pattern with her), she sends the children and their father to separate areas of the woods when they choose family over her material rewards.
She also says “you aren’t the first boy or girl I’ve sent into that sticky sweet house, but you are the first to emerge.” She’s pulled this coerce-children-into-the-cannibal’s-house stunt many times before, and she knows full well what happens to them if they fail (we saw her watching in her mirror). Oh, and in Storybrooke, she was perfectly willing to send Hansel and Gretel to Boston with Emma when she knew full well that “bad things happen” when you try to leave the cursed town and that they and Emma could’ve been hurt or killed.
Also, just as Keb said above, she’s done a whole lot of harm to children besides the actual killing, such as separating them from their families. And the children who have actually been in her care–Snow and Henry–she used her power to hurt them as well. She hurt Snow in too many ways to count, and emotionally abused Henry by gaslighting him through the whole first season (oh, and trying to kill his biological mother, resulting in his near-death).
And by the way…an eye for an eye did happen to Regina, as just as she took away true loves, mother, father, siblings….her own mother, father, sibling, true love taken away twice, and now her soulmate was taken from her, not to mention she suffered being hated by her only son, So yeah…Regina paid the price for her sins! And like Ruby said….the Dark Curse took away more bad memories than good for some people, and Regina did some people a favor…hence everyone loves Storybrooke.
For some things…but for the murders, a murderer would have to be killed. She may have paid for some things, but in the strictest sense, no “an-eye-for-an-eye” price has been paid for the rest of her many crimes. And let’s see, Keb already covered why it’s not the same that her family dies since she either tried to or did kill them herself. And when was she ever hated by Henry?! Personally I think he has every reason to hate her, but he clearly doesn’t. Even at the beginning of season two, he begs Emma not to let her get killed by the mob. Even walking in on her literally in the process of strangling his grandfather (after his mother and grandmother were pulled into a portal saving Regina from the wraith) doesn’t make him hate her.
But here’s the main problem I have–Regina doesn’t regret any of it! “I did cast a curse that devastated an entire population. I have tortured and murdered. I’ve done some terrible things. I should be overflowing with regret, but I’m not…because it got me my son.” She’s admittedly done all of these terrible things, but because it ended well for her, she isn’t even remotely sorry! She shows no contrition for anything; she’s still cruel to everyone else. If she’d truly changed, she’d be sorry for what she’s done. Have we seen her apologize to Snow for having tried to kill her for years, and then taking her child away from her? Have we ever seen her apologize to Emma for making her grow up miserable and alone, and then murdering the first person she connected with in years? How about Hansel and Gretel, or Jefferson and Grace–has she apologized for ripping apart their families, before and after the curse? We did see her apologize to Belle, but that was only because she needed her help.
Her whole interaction with Snow in “Bleeding Through” exemplifies that. First, when Snow apologizes (again) for having killed Cora, Regina does acknowledge that Cora “did kill your mother”, but she says nothing about what should’ve been the other elephant in the room: that Regina killed Snow’s father, and she never apologized for that! Also worth noting here is what Snow says about killing Cora: “I don’t take it lightly. I think about it every day”. That’s what someone who’s actually sorry would say (and that was for killing someone to defend her whole family). And then at the end of the episode, when Snow mentions having been “such a brat”…well, (a) it looked like her mother had gotten rid of the worst of her brattiness before she died, and (b) yes, children can be brats–but the adults in their lives are supposed to teach and correct them, not make them orphans and then spend the next 30+ years trying to end or destroy their lives. If she’d really changed and felt any remorse, surely Regina would’ve said something like “No, it’s not your fault. I was supposed to be your stepmother, to take care of you. There’s no excuse at all for what I did to you and your family, and I’m sorry.” But nope, she just nods and smiles–no acknowledgement that she is the one who’s in the wrong.
So no, I don’t think Regina is entitled to or has earned anything more than what she has. In fact, she should be thanking her lucky stars that the Charmings are such forgiving people that they not only didn’t kill her for what she’s done in the past or jail her in the present, but they’ve also taken great pains to make her happy. Honestly, it kills me to see Emma so concerned about Regina after all of the terrible things she’s done to her and her loved ones. Regina really should be THRILLED with how things are now–she’s not dead or in jail, she has Henry back in her life–but it’s not enough so she’s scheming about how to force some mysterious author to give her what she “deserves”. I’m sorry, but if she got what she actually deserved, I don’t think she’d be too happy.
1. The children were given clear instructions by Regina: TOUCH NOTHING! Again…Regina probably kidnapped Hansel and Gretel’s father after they agreed to work for her, and probably would have reunited them had they not been so rude and disrespectful to her. Again, Regina didn’t push those children into the Witch’s House….Regina didn’t kill children! We have no proof that Regina ever killed a child….and knowing her character who had a very soft spot for children, the most she’d probably punish them is a week in the dungeons. But again…the children had a choice that they could’ve said no to, but instead they willingly accepted Regina’s offer.
2.Regina has taken responsibility for her past which is why she’s constantly reminding herself that she’s a villain. She knows what she did, she was there! She’s owned up to it, but the more she tries to move on and redeem herself, everyone keeps pushing her back into the Villain category! Regina and Rumple are two people who are being drowned by their past, because the people around them won’t let them up for air.
3. And once again…how much work will it take for Regina to redeem herself? Where does the road end! Where is the finish line! Because after all she’s done…she’s redeemed herself and more.
4. The people of Storybrooke will always wave the villain sign, and talk about her and Rumple behind their backs. Many people will cheer at their persistence, but secretly pray for their decline! Storybrooke isn’t Anti-Hero friendly…you’re either 100% goody two shoe like those sneaky Charmings, or you’re nothing but dirt beneath their feet. That’s how Storybrooke feels!
5. Regina or Rumple could sacrifice their lives again for Storybrooke, and die the next day, and only be remembered in light heart by their fans and the Charmings, however those who are against them(such as Storybrooke and other Oncers) will dismiss any good deed they’ve done, and say…”they got what they deserved”. They are not given a fair chance if people keep throwing the past in their faces.
And if Regina and Henry succeeds, God I hope they do, Regina can write herself a new story with a much happier ending. And not just her…she can give the villains their own happy ending….all Rumple was his son and love, all Cora used to want is money, but before she died she realized love is more important. And I think deep down…all Zelena wanted was Cora’s love. Chances of this happening is zero to none, but the point is….if Regina rewrites history and gives every villain what they wanted….everyone ends up happening. Because so many lives could have been spared had Bae not encountered the Blue Fairy, Johnathan not lied to Cora, and Snow not telling Regina’s secret.
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
1. The children were given clear instructions by Regina: TOUCH NOTHING!
You have children. How often does that work? Especially when there is candy involved and they are starving
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Boy we keep going back and forth…. 😛 But that’s alright! This is a little fun!
6. If Regina regrets any decisions she’s made…then she regrets Henry. And that’s something she does not regret! That’s why she doesn’t regret anything! Had Regina not done what she had done…Emma would have never met Neal, and Henry would never be born! Nine times out of ten, Zelena would have came along and destroyed everything, and actually win because Regina would have no love to pull from to defeat her. And Emma would have been more than likely the baby Zelena would have sacrificed. So in a way, it’s a good thing Regina doesn’t regret anything because it’s how her and her family has survived this long. I know it sounds strange and weird but it’s the truth…it was her having no regrets that helped Regina defeat Pan who would’ve surely killed them all.
7. The death of Leopold, you all know how I feel about that, and Regina should NOT have to apologize for killing the man who imprisoned her in a castle, and showed her off as only a trophy wife before locking her back away. Regina could not step foot outside the kingdom unless she was with him, and Leopold knowingly married his ex-fiancée’s daughter, who was three times younger than him, and accepted his ex-fiancée’s answer instead of the woman he was proposing to. Leopold sought out a trophy wife/mother and babysitter for Snow/bed partner. Yes, it may not have been shown, but I’m quite sure by Leopold’s jealousy in the Forbidden Fruit that he didn’t want NO other man after his young, fairest of them all, wife. Leopold may have been a good king, but he was a terrible husband with some sick problems!
8. And another thing,…..it should be the Charmings who are happy Regina was in a good place, and trying to be good. Because she could have killed them all and been done with the entire situation, and forced Henry to love her with that curse, but Regina decided against it. Regina willingly let Henry go to give him his best chance with the Charming Family, but I can guarantee, all Henry had to do was say he was ready to come home….No Charming or Ally in SB could have held Regina back from her son. And because of Snow White….Regina missed out on her first love which she did not deserve, and actually showed some form of mercy because if Regina really wanted Snow to suffer back in the EF….she could’ve just swiftly killed David and showed Snow the pain she caused her. And for killing Regina’s mother….Snow really deserves another death in her own family if we’re discussing who deserves what, but Regina left it at that, and is moving on. Right now….what Regina deserves, has earned, and long since been denied is a Happily Ever After.
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
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