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I agree RumplesGirl. Regina will never ever be able to go back to the Regina she was before Daniel’s death. Regina has done so much, literally killed hundreds of people, that can’t just be wiped away with her saying “I want to be good now”.
Rumple, even with Belle’s help, can never fully go back to the “good” man he was before he became the dark one. Belle can help bring out the goodness in him but she can’t change his past and neither can he. What makes Rumple and Belle true love is that Belle knows Rumple is no saint but she accepts him for who he is, past and all. She inspires him to be the best person he can be.
Regina needs someone who doesn’t judge her on her past actions but on her present day ones. Cora’s abuse of Regina will affect Regina for the rest of her life even though Cora is dead.
Because Cora couldn’t love Regina without her heart, Regina grew up with the warped definition that love was obedience. Cora “loved” Regina by forcing her to be obedient and Regina did as Cora said because she “loved” her.
Regina/Daniel- There are slight elements of love=obedience with Daniel and Regina because of their difference social status with Daniel being of lower status than Regina. Because they were trying to keep their relationship secret, Daniel had to obey Regina in public both to keep up the illusion that there was nothing going on and also because otherwise Daniel would have no job. For Regina, if love=obedience then Daniel loved her so she loved him. Because of her higher social status, Regina had the power in the relationship. That must have been a great feeling for her, to be the one in control, in contrast to submission to Cora. That’s not to say Daniel didn’t have genuine feelings for Regina, he did, but their relationship was one of inequality where potentially Daniel could have lost his job if he didn’t keep Regina happy.
I can understand why Regina was so angry at Snow for what she did. Not only did Snow telling Cora result in Daniel’s death but it also meant that Regina lost that little bit of power she did have. She had to go back to being submissive to Cora and then to Leopold. She was in her own eyes powerless once again because of Snow. When Rumple showed up, he played on Regina’s feelings of powerlessness because he understood that feeling so he knew exactly what to say to manipulate Regina. He was building Regina up so that she would think his ideas were her ideas for example using the curse to transport everyone to Storybrooke.
Regina/Graham- This relationship is majorly love=obedience for Regina. She had control of Graham’s heart so he had to do what she wanted. Regina wanted to be loved, and since Graham obeyed her every whim, it meant he loved her and Regina was happy. However, when Emma came to town, Graham started disobeying her such as appointing Emma as his deputy without Regina’s say so. When Graham broke up with Regina, Regina was upset because once again she was not the one in control. She crushed Graham’s heart because he didn’t “love” her anymore and that was her way regaining control. Also crushing his heart may be Regina’s version of destroying photos of her ex-boyfriend and erasing him from her life.
RegalHood would never work because, other than the reasons I’ve listed in previous posts, Robin would not let Regina have the control she craves in the relationship.
[adrotate group="5"]All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixMaaaannn, RG, you had to go and write a philosophical Regina post right when I was re-watching The Doctor, of all the eps. 😆 That’s the one ep that actually kinda makes me feel really sorry for her, (for most the ep, until she kills the random gypsy).
Is it not our experiences that shape us? No matter what, she was the Evil Queen and even if she gives up the power that got her to that place, her emotional state has changed wholly from when she was a little girl.
Absolutely it is our experiences that shape us, but does that mean that all of our mistakes tip the scales irreversibly in the negative? Or can we take what we learn from those mistakes, and resolve to not make the same mistakes again? Now, granted, Regina hasn’t exactly shown that she’s one to learn from her mistakes thus far, but that’s not say that it can never happen.
As for it being the power itself that got her to that EQ place, I’m not sure that it was actually the power that corrupted her, and here’s why…
Rumpelstiltskin: Stop wasting my time! What is it you want? Come on. You’ve done all your soul searching. Now tell me.
Evil Queen: Can you teach me how to use magic to bring back the dead?
Rumpelstiltskin: That’s what this is about? The stable boy?
Evil Queen: I want true happiness.
Rumpelstiltskin: Then find it elsewhere, dearie. Magic can do much, but not that. Dead is dead.
Evil Queen: Then I am lost.
Bringing back Daniel was the reason she wanted the power in the first place, and it wasn’t until bringing back Daniel had officially been eliminated as an option that she went all EQ and decided, “If I really can’t get him back, then I’ll just use the power to destroy Snow instead and maybe that will make me feel better.” If Victor bringing back Daniel in SB had actually worked, I reckon she’d have mellowed out a fair bit. It wouldn’t have erased her past actions, but I daresay it would have stopped her from doing more serious evil in the future.
His dying words to her were to honour her love for him, by loving again. As a Daniel fan, I think it’d be really sad if she found love again but it was a dysfunctional love with someone just as broken as she is, that would still enable her to do bad stuff. Would sorta be like her spitting on Daniel’s grave. If she wants to honour Daniel’s pure, honest, good love from the past, she has to find a similar type of love in the future.
And it’s not a matter of not developing her character; if she stopped being even the tiniest bit the Evil Queen, or missing her power and the magic, it wouldn’t be believable. That role defined her and identity negotiation is tricky. Better character development would show the constant struggle to stay “good” even in the face of her more evil/cunning desires. That’s believable.
But haven’t we already seen that with Cora? Regina is an EPIC FAIL at the struggle to be good when she’s got evil tempting her. I don’t really wanna sit through another season of that. I think that from here on in, the more interesting storyline would be for her to have the genuine option of moving beyond all her darkness, but she struggles to let it all go and move forward in a positive way, because you’re right, it is something that has wholly defined her for a very long time. Making that big of a change would feel like walking a tightrope across the Grand Canyon with no safety net. But if they write in a character who will be there to catch her if she falls and actually support her, instead of exploiting her weaknesses like Cora did…that’s the makings of a romance, right there.
Also, I feel the need to mention Henry here again. Regina’s endgame must include a functional relationship with Henry, (unless she dies). K&H already get all sorts of crap for how people perceive them discrediting the relationship between Henry and his adoptive mother, (I don’t agree with people who give them crap for that, because it’s not about her not being his bio-mother, it’s about her being the freaking EQ), and if the show ends without a joint custody arrangement between Regina and Emma, all hell would break loose, and I doubt K&H have that sorta death wish. So I don’t think there’s any way she can keep on the path she’s currently on, because the Charmings just won’t trust her with Henry unless she makes a massive change for the better at some point. Even though the EQ shaped who she was, and is, I really think they’re gonna find a way for her to move past the EQ mindset in the future.
The trauma of NL could well be the point where she finally stops to get some perspective. If she sees all the Lost Boys, being held prisoner by PP, and how utterly distraught they are being kept from their parents, maybe she’ll see a bit of a parallel there with how she’s controlled Henry and made him feel trapped, and how he’s caught between her and Emma, constantly being kept from one of his parents no matter which one of them he’s with on any given day, just like the Lost Boys are kept from their parents. She may actually, finally, no longer be able to ignore the legitimately painful position she’s put Henry in, and she may resolve that she does want to legitimately make an effort to get along with everyone better. Then in swoops the new guy to encourage her when she’s too scared to do it all on her own, and can’t trust anyone she already knows to support her.
What I take from that is that magic is all about the intent. It can come from a twisted place, or from a pure place, but either way, it has the same origin. So it’s really the intent of the individual magic user that determines if it’s light magic, or dark magic.
I agree that magic itself isn’t the problem; it’s a question of intent. Yet, what I question is Regina’s ability to entirely disentangle herself from using magic for dark reasons. Every time we’ve seen her use magic for good, like when she saved Emma and Snow at the well in 2×11 or the town of SB in 2×22, she turns around and uses dark magic again. All it takes is an enabler, such as Rumple, Cora, or even Peter Pan, standing in the wings to push her over the edge of using dark magic again. We know she’s going to go a little crazy when she gets her hands on Henry’s kidnappers.
Regina’s been using her magic in all the wrong ways, with the wrong inspiration. But if she changed her intent, I believe her magic could potentially be used for good instead. Instead of throwing fireballs at crops, she could enrich the soil and make crops flourish. She could use her magic to help the community in general be more productive, which results in more wealth and prosperity for all the regular folks, and I reckon a guy like Robin would be totally fine with that…
Regina is addicted to magic. She’s like she’s an alcoholic. Many adults learn to drink sparingly, and when done in moderation, wine can actually have added health benefits for the heart. While most people can just have a glass without getting drunk, a true alcoholic can’t even risk having a sip. One sip is enough to send an alcoholic over the edge to binge and get drunk. Any person who has been through AA will tell you how hard it is to be restrained even while others are drinking in front of them. You never stop being an alcoholic; all that person can do is abstain. The same is true of Regina and magic.
Archie’s solution for Regina was for her to quit using magic altogether, and that seemed to work for a bit. Regina did it per Henry’s request, and yet she never really wanted to give up magic for her own sake. Regina used magic when Henry was having bad dreams and Prince Charming asked to be put under a sleeping curse instead. It was interesting that Rumple had Regina “do the honors” of administering the dark magic to David, since we all know he could have done so himself. Rumple tempted Regina to use her magic for dark purposes again when the threat of Cora was there. While Regina did save Snow White and Emma at the well, Cora’s arrival was enough to send Regina over the edge and cause her to go completely mental again. Regina would have destroyed all of SB and murdered Henry’s blood relatives just so she could have Henry to herself. She did end up saving the town again at the last moment but only when she realized she couldn’t escape with Henry.
It’s just a matter of her truly wanting to change, for the right reasons, and I think that if they never give her any sort of genuine change of heart, she’ll just never get her happy ending. She won’t ever end up with any kind of custody of Henry, unless she actually changes, and I can’t see this show ending with Emma officially having sole custody, and Regina being shut out of his life completely. Unless K&H have a death wish.
Even if Regina truly desires to do magic only for good in the future, using magic even with good intent could be enough to send her over the edge to do bad magic again. We’ve seen it happen over and over. For Regina to have her happy ending (and I believe she will), Regina needs to resolve for own sake not to do magic. If someone like Robin really loved Regina and wanted the best for her, he’d keep her from doing magic entirely, for her own sake and everyone else’s. I believe Daniel would have done the same. When Regina was with Daniel, she never wanted to be queen or to have power. All she wanted was him. For Regina to have any semblance of being that girl again, I believe she really would need to choose love over power. That seems to be a repeating theme in this series.
The source of magic is still an interesting question. As the product of True Love, Emma’s source of magic is the “purest” form of good magic that there is. True Love magic can break any curse. I’ll be very interested to see Regina trying to teach Emma magic, potentially motivated by dark revenge, and Snow and Charming trying to persuade Emma not to give into hate. Back in “The Miller’s Daughter” we saw Snow give into her temptation to use dark magic with the enchanted candle. Even though Snow was “protecting” the ones she loved, she still used dark magic to take the life of Cora to spare Rumple. Again, Rumple was the one tempting a person to give into dark magic.
Slurpeez108 wrote:
The reason I doubt Regina could maintain her power and do good with it long-term is that Rumple said he would use his power to help free the children from the Ogres War and then lust of power consumed him as the Dark One.
Well, what were the emotions he was tapping into for all of those years? Yes, he had goodness in his heart of hearts, and yes he did it all to initially help his son, and then to reunite with his son, which is a positive thing to aim for. But his quest was fueled by self loathing, by the need to save face, by shame, by regret, by cowardice, by desperation, and by the need to control everyone. Even before he lost Bae, he was trying to over compensate for how everyone had previously seen him, and then after he lost Bae, it just got a billion times more intense. So for that one good act where he used his power to save children from war…overall, the way he conjured and wielded his power came from a dark place.
I agree with you here. Rumple is cursed as the Dark One to do dark magic. I believe the only way he’ll ever be rid of the temptation to do evil is if True Love wins the day. While we’ve seen him do the “right thing” by saving the children from the Ogres War and spare Robin Hood for the sake of his unborn child, Rumple’s curse keeps in enslaved. Yes, Rumple has love in his heart for Belle and for Bae, which keeps some of his humanity in tact, but until he’s ready to let True Love rule the day, he’s stuck with his curse.
Slurpeez108 wrote:
Yes, I agree with you here. Since this show is all about hope, I think Regina can become good again. She was willing to die as Regina, rather than as the Evil Queen. I just fear that the events of S3 might delay/put off that possible outcome for a bit.
Oh I agree, she’s gonna start out the season bad and she’s gonna relish in it. When I think about her being able to be with a good man like Robin, I’m imagining it being a season long struggle for her to get to that place. You quoted the article about how maybe she won’t be willing to accept any love that’s offered. That plays into how I imagine this unfolding pretty perfectly, because I imagine that after she goes all EQ in NL, killing again and all, because the end (saving Henry) justifies the means, I doubt she’d feel deserving of any kind of affections from a good man. So even if someone like Robin was willing to give her a chance, she’d resist it. That would actually be some progress for her, because she’s always believed that she deserves the good stuff, even though she does bad stuff. If she does bad stuff and has the regret of that influence her in that she talks herself out of grabbing onto something that’s offered to her, then YAY character development!
I agree that someone like Robin could be a great motivation for Regina to turn the corner and experience real growth. However, I think Robin could only exert his good influence over Regina if he was her rock and foundation to abstain from the lust for power and magic vs being her enabler to do magic again.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Regina/Daniel- There are slight elements of love=obedience with Daniel and Regina because of their difference social status with Daniel being of lower status than Regina. Because they were trying to keep their relationship secret, Daniel had to obey Regina in public both to keep up the illusion that there was nothing going on and also because otherwise Daniel would have no job. For Regina, if love=obedience then Daniel loved her so she loved him. Because of her higher social status, Regina had the power in the relationship. That must have been a great feeling for her, to be the one in control, in contrast to submission to Cora. That’s not to say Daniel didn’t have genuine feelings for Regina, he did, but their relationship was one of inequality where potentially Daniel could have lost his job if he didn’t keep Regina happy.
The way I see Regina and Daniel’s relationship is that when she was with him, that was the only time when she didn’t have to worry about any sort of pretense or power struggle. I think they were equals, because he’s the sort of person she was herself, and so with him, she could feel safe and free. If they coulda lived in a shack in the woods together and just ridden horses around all day, I think Regina would have been perfectly satisfied with life. Situations where Regina may have to tell him off in front of her mother were just a necessary part of keeping their secret, and they both understood that. It wasn’t a way for Regina to feel like she had power over him IMO.
Regina/Graham- This relationship is majorly love=obedience for Regina. She had control of Graham’s heart so he had to do what she wanted. Regina wanted to be loved, and since Graham obeyed her every whim, it meant he loved her and Regina was happy. However, when Emma came to town, Graham started disobeying her such as appointing Emma as his deputy without Regina’s say so. When Graham broke up with Regina, Regina was upset because once again she was not the one in control. She crushed Graham’s heart because he didn’t “love” her anymore and that was her way regaining control. Also crushing his heart may be Regina’s version of destroying photos of her ex-boyfriend and erasing him from her life.
Her relationship with Graham was most definitely about control. Dunno that she ever felt any genuine affection for him though, or expected him to feel any for her in return, (people without hearts simply aren’t capable of that). Having lost Daniel, she believed that the only way to guarantee to have a companion who could never be taken away was to enslave someone the way she did him. It wasn’t about wanting love IMO, it was just about not wanting to be alone. And when Emma threatened that, Regina lashed out because no one was supposed to be able to take away her pet, and if she couldn’t have him, neither could anyone else.
Don’t think Robin Hood’s the guy for Regina. Also don’t think Regina can fully give up magic especially if she can solve a problem using it. For example, If Henry really wanted the lead part in a school play and another kid was standing in his way, I could see Regina using magic to make the other kid a little bit ill so that Henry would get the part he wanted.
Also, Regina can’t escape Rumple now that they are both related to Henry. They may hate each other at times, but they also understand each other the most on the show and the Neverland experience will most likely strengthen their bond. Their two addicts together so neither one will be getting clean from magic anytime soon.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixIs it not our experiences that shape us? No matter what, she was the Evil Queen and even if she gives up the power that got her to that place, her emotional state has changed wholly from when she was a little girl. Part of her may forgive Snow but the other part of her may always look at Snow and see the death of Daniel, even if she does love again and moves on. Her being, her core, changed in such an extreme measure that even she gets to a place emotionally where she no longer uses her power, she will always feel the need for it, even if she can temper her desires. And it’s not a matter of not developing her character; if she stopped being even the tiniest bit the Evil Queen, or missing her power and the magic, it wouldn’t be believable. That role defined her and identity negotiation is tricky. Better character development would show the constant struggle to stay “good” even in the face of her more evil/cunning desires. That’s believable.
They have shown us that magic is an addiction and I know there are a lot of philosophies on if addiction is “curable” but I, personally, don’t think it is. Alcoholics can be around alcohol eventually, many many many years down the road, but it’s always a battle. The Evil Queen will always live inside Regina even if she becomes more like her old self. The same can be applied to Rumple. Even if he loses the Dark One’s Curse, he has been changed so much that he can’t ever be the humble spinner he once was. He will probably always miss his power and the courage he thought it gave him, even though he is gradually acknowledging that the desperate clinging to of that power is itself an act of cowardice.
It’s for that reason that I think Regina needs someone who is equally tortured and not “good” as RH is often depicted. Unless he has been radically changed by the death of Marian, which might be a great guess, I don’t think he and Regina will have common ground. So for that reason, and for the larger reason of messing with my beloved “Tamara is the daughter of RH” theory, that I can’t fully get on board team RegalHood.Yeah, that’s pretty much what I was trying to write in my reply before you beat met to it, RG. You said it even better than I could. While I think Regina can love again and move on, and thereby find her redemption, she’s going to have to give up practicing magic completely. For Regina to have a solid love, she needs someone who can understand the pathos Regina has been through and can help her resist giving into her lust for power. Otherwise, whoever is in a relationship with Regina will just end up being an enabler for Regina, which isn’t going to be good news for either party or anyone else for that matter. When Regina dives into magic, she dives head long into a heap of it and everyone else suffers.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
But, in my opinion, putting Regina with someone that we would label “good” and thus turning her into this “good” person and negating her Evil Queen-ness almost makes her like Snow and Charming and it isn’t true to her character. Even when she was Regina in “Stable Boy” she was still somewhat defiant. She was willing to defy her mother, go against class and social norms. And yes, it was in the name of love, and thus commendable, but still wasn’t a compliant person. She wanted what she wanted. Snow, on the other hand, generally puts people before herself. That’s one of her character traits. Even when she wanted her mother to live, she couldn’t bring herself to kill another person. Snow was willing to die because she felt that she had ruined Regina’s life. Snow and Regina were vastly different even before all their own drama together. We can’t expect Regina to convert to being Snow, which is almost what is sounds like Phee is proposing, a sort of sweeping character development that takes her to saint-like status, such as Snow it.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"The way I see Regina and Daniel’s relationship is that when she was with him, that was the only time when she didn’t have to worry about any sort of pretense or power struggle. I think they were equals, because he’s the sort of person she was herself, and so with him, she could feel safe and free. If they coulda lived in a shack in the woods together and just ridden horses around all day, I think Regina would have been perfectly satisfied with life. Situations where Regina may have to tell him off in front of her mother were just a necessary part of keeping their secret, and they both understood that. It wasn’t a way for Regina to feel like she had power over him IMO.
What I mean is the power imbalance is there but Regina wasn’t in the relationship just because she thought she had power over Daniel. Daniel seemed to be Regina’s first romantic relationship so that kind of sets the standard for future relationships. Because of the social status difference, Regina was the one in power in that relationship.
Her relationship with Graham was most definitely about control. Dunno that she ever felt any genuine affection for him though, or expected him to feel any for her in return, (people without hearts simply aren’t capable of that). Having lost Daniel, she believed that the only way to guarantee to have a companion who could never be taken away was to enslave someone the way she did him. It wasn’t about wanting love IMO, it was just about not wanting to be alone. And when Emma threatened that, Regina lashed out because no one was supposed to be able to take away her pet, and if she couldn’t have him, neither could anyone else.
I think Regina felt something for Graham but I don’t think it was love. Graham must have had some sort of feeling for Regina, not love (don’t shoot me) but he continued to be with her even though she had his heart stored away and wasn’t in direct control of it, and he was unaware that she had his heart, so what did he think his feelings towards her was?
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixBut, in my opinion, putting Regina with someone that we would label “good” and thus turning her into this “good” person and negating her Evil Queen-ness almost makes her like Snow and Charming and it isn’t true to her character. Even when she was Regina in “Stable Boy” she was still somewhat defiant. She was willing to defy her mother, go against class and social norms. And yes, it was in the name of love, and thus commendable, but still wasn’t a compliant person. She wanted what she wanted. Snow, on the other hand, generally puts people before herself. That’s one of her character traits. Even when she wanted her mother to live, she couldn’t bring herself to kill another person. Snow was willing to die because she felt that she had ruined Regina’s life. Snow and Regina were vastly different even before all their own drama together. We can’t expect Regina to convert to being Snow, which is almost what is sounds like Phee is proposing, a sort of sweeping character development that takes her to saint-like status, such as Snow it.
I agree.
I just can’t get on the RegalHood ship not until 1. we find out what happened to Marian and 2. whether or not Tamara is RH’s daughter.
If Tamara is RH’s daughter then RegalHood is sunk for me.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixEven when she was Regina in “Stable Boy” she was still somewhat defiant. She was willing to defy her mother, go against class and social norms. And yes, it was in the name of love, and thus commendable, but still wasn’t a compliant person. She wanted what she wanted.
That is an excellent point. It’s consistent with how she’s conducted herself since becoming the EQ, where once she’s got her mind set on something, if it’s something she’s passionate about, she’ll go for it.
We can’t expect Regina to convert to being Snow, which is almost what is sounds like Phee is proposing, a sort of sweeping character development that takes her to saint-like status, such as Snow it.
Ack, no, I don’t believe in Saint Regina, (and sometimes I wanna reach into the screen and give Snow a good hard shake)! I just think, basically, she’ll be redeemed to the point where people who currently don’t trust her, will trust her. The Charmings will be able to let Henry live with her part time, because they won’t fear for his physical and/or mental safety any more when he’s in her care. She’ll never be a saint, but she doesn’t have to remain evil, either. And if she’s in a relationship with a “good” man who is influencing her, that’s gonna make her redemption to that point of being trustworthy more believable IMO, because we already know she can’t be trusted if left to her own devices.
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