Was Rumple a Lost Boy? (spoilers!)

[RumplesGirl]

Ok, so based on the scene witnessed at D23 this weekend (see this thread which will hopefully have video soon]) it was STRONGLY hinted that Rumple was in NL as a Lost Boy! Some questions to ponder:

1) When was he in NL? We know his father left him and that he was raised by Spinsters. So when did he go to NL?
2) How long was he there?
3) Why are he and PP enemies?
4) How did Rumple get out?
5) Is PP and Rumple’s past have anything to do with why PP wants Henry?

[Josephine]

I think Pan is Rumple’s older brother. We talked about this in chat last week, and it’s a stretch but it makes perfect sense! I do have a reason for my madness…

Peter Pan makes his first appearance in a book called The Little Bird.  A few chapters are devoted to the character Peter Pan and his early life. They were later extracted to make the story Peter Pan in Kensington Gardens.  Very few know that Peter has a younger brother.  At the end of the story, a very young Peter decides to return to his mother and coming back to the house finds the window closed and her holding another baby.  He think’s she’s replaced him and so he flees to live with the fairies.  Here is an excerpt. 

 “I wish now to go back to mother for ever and always,” they had to tickle his shoulder and let him go.

He went in a hurry in the end because he had dreamt that his mother was crying, and he knew what was the great thing she cried for, and that a hug from her splendid Peter would quickly make her to smile. Oh, he felt sure of it, and so eager was he to be nestling in her arms that this time he flew straight to the window, which was always to be open for him.

But the window was closed, and there were iron bars on it, and peering inside he saw his mother sleeping peacefully with her arm round another little boy.

Peter called, “Mother! mother!” but she heard him not; in vain he beat his little limbs against the iron bars. He had to fly back, sobbing, to the Gardens, and he never saw his dear again. What a glorious boy he had meant to be to her. Ah, Peter, we who have made the great mistake, how differently we should all act at the second chance. But Solomon was right; there is no second chance, not for most of us. When we reach the window it is Lock-out Time. The iron bars are up for life.

 

So now we have a history of Peter having the existence of a brother.  Eddy and Adam are twisted enough to include this little detail.  They would definitely be aware of it since Peter Pan is their favorite story.  So we have a boy, with no mother and a brother who had taken his place.  I’d say he might be a little bitter about that and want his revenge in some way.  So my theory is all this is an elaborate plan…from the seer, to the Dark One curse, to the taking of Henry, to destroy the brother who took attention away from him.

Rumple also fits because we know next to nothing about his early life.  We know his father was killed for fleeing and he was raised by spinsters.  We know nothing about his mother.  It’s possible that either/both of his parents had a previous child.  A brother that Rumple would now nothing of. 

I had more on the theory last week, but I can’t remember it at the moment…but it was brilliant. 😛  Hopefully, I can eventually remember it.  I used to come up with sound theories and now everything is outlandish and cracktastic.  I think I’ve cracked.

Keeper of Rumplestiltskin's and Neal's spears and war paint and crystal ball.

[obisgirl]

but wasn’t Peter from the same world as Wendy in the original?  I guess, Adam and Eddie could twist it around and say Peter was actually from fairytale land.

Maybe Rumple could have run away to Neverland when he was a boy but knowing that he’s there alone without his family, he probably returned to EF.

[RumplesGirl]

Yesterday, I would have said this is a stretch but today…it’s incredibly possible.

We know Rumple’s father was sort of a bad parent but what if he wasn’t always like that? What if what made him a bad father to Rumple was losing his first son just after he lost his wife?

I wonder if Tink rescued Peter from FTL after Rumple’s father began to fall apart?

How did Rumple get to NL then? And why? Going in search of his brother? To bring him home? What changed Peter into a dark character then?

Why is not Sept 29th?

I would wager that Rumple was not in NL very long and that PP let him go because he does love his little brother, but they are enemies after this point. He wants Henry for something very specific and maybe he needs family blood but can’t turn to Rumple. Bae won’t work because Bae isn’t a believer in the power of magic. He sees it as evil. Henry is the true believer.

Why is not Sept 29th?

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[RumplesGirl]

Here is a full description of the scene in question. Thanks to @kranen!!!!!

Full description:

The scene opens in the forests of Neverland. Mr. Gold comes out from behind a tree wearing Rumple’s classic outfit. He calls out to someone to reveal themselves; it’s the blonde Lost Boy from the season two finale (who carries the name Felix). Felix tells Rumple that Pan will allow him to remain in Neverland as long as he likes, but if he has come for “the boy” then Rumple and Pan shall remain enemies, to which Rumple replies, “So then nothing has changed” between clenched teeth.
The two of them discuss a possible confrontation between Rumple and Pan, wherein Rumple acknowledges that he would die if it should happen. He then says that death isn’t the real issue; the real issue is how many Lost Boys he (Rumple) takes with him. Rumple says this as he grabs Felix and pulls him right up to his own face, it’s very heated and tense.
The two of them separate and (I think) Felix tells Rumple that Pan has a message for him. Felix throws a rather voodoo-looking doll down, it is white with a blue jacket that has white trim. Felix says “Isn’t it amazing how the things we haven’t thought about in years…can make us cry?” Rumple falls to his knees and breaks down crying as this occurs. STRONG implications that Rumple was a lost boy. It ended there.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Josephine]

Okay, we were theorizing in chat and I brought out my parallel to the movie Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves.  I think I posted this elsewhere, but I’m reposting it.  It’s conversation between Will Scarlet and Robin Hood.  Imagine replacing those names with Peter Pan and Rumplestiltskin and there we have the basis for my theory of Rumple=Peter Pan’s brother:

Robin Hood: Did I wrong you in another life, Will Scarlett? Where does this intolerable hatred for me come from?

Will Scarlett: From knowing that… that our father loved you more than me.

Robin Hood: Our father?

Will Scarlett: We are brothers, Robin of Locksley. I am the son of the woman who replaced your dead mother for a time.

I could see it turning out much like this passage.

Keeper of Rumplestiltskin's and Neal's spears and war paint and crystal ball.

[Phee]

So we have a boy, with no mother and a brother who had taken his place. I’d say he might be a little bitter about that and want his revenge in some way. So my theory is all this is an elaborate plan…from the seer, to the Dark One curse, to the taking of Henry, to destroy the brother who took attention away from him.

I’m starting to like the potential for this theory. Wasn’t instantly on board the Brothers train when I first heard it, but especially after D23, it’s looking likely IMO.

but wasn’t Peter from the same world as Wendy in the original? I guess, Adam and Eddie could twist it around and say Peter was actually from fairytale land.

Yes, he was. However, Barrie’s version of London had fairies living in Kensington Gardens, and K&H’s version of London is in a land without magic. If PP is gonna end up associating with fairies, he’s gotta come from a world that is capable of having fairies.

We know Rumple’s father was sort of a bad parent but what if he wasn’t always like that? What if what made him a bad father to Rumple was losing his first son just after he lost his wife?

My heart hurts just thinking about it, (and how it would mirror Rumple’s own eventual situation with losing his wife and son and how it changed him). So it’s probably exactly what they’ll do.

I wonder if Tink rescued Peter from FTL after Rumple’s father began to fall apart?

I could see that happening. But then, why wasn’t Rumple also taken away from their father by Tink at some point? Unless…

How did Rumple get to NL then? And why?

…maybe he was? Maybe Peter was prepared to be BFFs with his baby bro in NL, but baby bro wanted to go home, which made Peter feel rejected by family all over again, which is how this whole hot mess got started.

Why is not Sept 29th?

This right here is the most important question of all!

[kfchimera]

I am doubtful that the doll was a clue Rumpel had been there before as  a child.  I think it has to do with Bae having been there, and Rumpel having been clueless that he was at the time.  Now Pan has Henry, and Rumple realizes once again his Dark One powers don’t work in NL.

That is a weakness for Rumpel, the belief that without his Dark One powers he is helpless.   (Obviously, he is capable of physically beating people with his cane, and is clever, so he is not helpless, but it goes back to why he brought magic back to SB–it is about his belief).  I think it will pick up that theme of love is strength, and he will have to realize he is not helpless without his powers, and believe in the others (because let’s face it, Rumple has had some trust issues).

As to  why Rumpel is powerless in NL, I think it has to do with Nl running on belief. Pan has magic that negates other magic, because it is based on belief not just emotion.  That is how the cuff/taser things worked.  It amplified the disbelief of Greg and Tamara  (or their belief in the superiority of science) to the point it cut off Regina’s powers.

Until Henry, Pan was the truest believer, but Pan only believes in himself.  Henry has belief just as true, but it is in those he loves as well, and that is why Henry is stronger.   All Pan knew was Henry was a threat, and that’s why he wanted him.  So he won’t be able to kill Henry right away, when Henry has hope of rescue.

So Pan’s threat to Rumpel is, if Rumpel keeps trying to get Henry, he will “believe” away the Dark One curse.  Rumpel then has to be strong enough to choose to give up the power, to be undone.  It’s a threat because of course, for Pan to summon enough disbelief to kill some magical thing, especially one capable of inspiring irrational fear, is not easy, that’s why he has all the kids.

On the fear point, it is like a kid can give up believing in the easter bunny and Santa, yet still be afraid of the dark/monsters basically, bad things.  Fear can bypass reason that might get in the way of belief.  That ties into why NL is so dark.

Now that I wrote that all out it feels like that can’t possibly be what the writers are doing.   So maybe it is just Rumpel was there as a boy.

 

 

 

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[Phee]

and Rumple realizes once again his Dark One powers don’t work in NL.

He must have some magic in NL though, otherwise he couldn’t be able to conjure up his costume change.

Pan has magic that negates other magic, because it is based on belief not just emotion. That is how the cuff/taser things worked. It amplified the disbelief of Greg and Tamara (or their belief in the superiority of science) to the point it cut off Regina’s powers.

Ooooo, I like this! Magical creature killing taser physics 101.

Until Henry, Pan was the truest believer, but Pan only believes in himself. Henry has belief just as true, but it is in those he loves as well, and that is why Henry is stronger. All Pan knew was Henry was a threat, and that’s why he wanted him. So he won’t be able to kill Henry right away, when Henry has hope of rescue.

I also love this stuff about Henry being more powerful than PP because he’s the bigger believer. However, if I can flip the last sentence on its head, is it also possible that he needs to sacrifice Henry when he’s at max level of belief, so him having hope of rescue could actually be a death sentence?

So Pan’s threat to Rumpel is, if Rumpel keeps trying to get Henry, he will “believe” away the Dark One curse. Rumpel then has to be strong enough to choose to give up the power, to be undone. It’s a threat because of course, for Pan to summon enough disbelief to kill some magical thing, especially one capable of inspiring irrational fear, is not easy, that’s why he has all the kids.

Egad, I think you’ve cracked it! *giving you all the cookies* Seriously, that just blew my mind a little bit.

Now that I wrote that all out it feels like that can’t possibly be what the writers are doing. So maybe it is just Rumpel was there as a boy.

I think it’s both. That situation and environment that exists in NL in present day is what transpired after Rumple’s visit there as a child.

[RumplesGirl]

As to why Rumpel is powerless in NL, I think it has to do with Nl running on belief. Pan has magic that negates other magic, because it is based on belief not just emotion. That is how the cuff/taser things worked. It amplified the disbelief of Greg and Tamara (or their belief in the superiority of science) to the point it cut off Regina’s powers.

Phee already pointed out that Rumple has his powers but I love this idea about the taser.

So Pan’s threat to Rumpel is, if Rumpel keeps trying to get Henry, he will “believe” away the Dark One curse. Rumpel then has to be strong enough to choose to give up the power, to be undone. It’s a threat because of course, for Pan to summon enough disbelief to kill some magical thing, especially one capable of inspiring irrational fear, is not easy, that’s why he has all the kids.

My mind. It is blown.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

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