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@WickedRegal wrote:
We have no idea how Cora’s life could have been, Rumple more than likely manipulated it for her family to be poor, so he could seek her, hence when he told Regina: “There’s a lot of history between me and your family, past and future.” Cora could have been filthy rich had Rumple not meddled into her family’s business, and there’s proof he’s stolen a family’s wealth before, wanting to bankrupt King George. Cora could have been rich, still married Henry, probably truly fell in love with him, and loved Regina, who could have married Daniel, but that was not the case, due to Rumple’s meddling. !
I don’t think Cora has been good. I don’t know what her father was like, but she treated him badly. she was ruthless before she met Rumpel (stealing the gown trying to get the prince to marry her) did Rumpelstiltskin really arrange to make her poor? I didn’t see that but who knows. either way she could have chosen love but she chose power instead. I am sure Cora was ruthless without any help. she reminds me of that French girl from the short story “the necklace” where she complains that because she is so beautiful it’s not fair that she is poor. Cora was definitely beautiful and aggressive because of that..
@WickedRegal wrote:
Cora, having ripped her heart out, in all honesty, cannot be blamed for the murders she committed. It’s exactly when people are under hypnosis, they don’t know what they did till they wake up. Yeah, she ripped it out herself, but remember, she was just a girl who was hopelessly devoted to Rumple, just like so many of you here, who wish to name all Regina’s wrongdoings, but give limited on Rumples.
the dagger could have the same effect (hypnotism) but she was NOT a girl when she ripped her own heart out. she knew exactly what she was doing: choosing power over love.
@WickedRegal wrote:
The centuries of murdering and lying just to get to this point, even though we haven’t seen, people, we know he did it!!! He was the Dark One!
you’re assuming he has been killing for centuries. I have a feeling he’s been spinning straw into gold in his own quiet estate and was very lonely for centuries thinking about his son and the prophecies and planning the curse
@WickedRegal wrote:
I love Rumple as much as the next person, but we must tell the truth! Cora was redeemed when Regina placed her heart back, because that’s when love entered her again, which is why her heart was not black as coal, because she was still pure in heart.
the heart thing intrigues me. what would Regina’s heart or Rumpel’s heart look like if someone ripped it out? Hook and Mila’s hearts were both bright red, so I have a feeling that Regina just invented this whole thing to scare Snow.
@WickedRegal wrote:
except, Rumpel, who took those moments of misery, and pain, to install darkness and hate, and especially when RUMPLE, whale, and Hatter tricked Regina with the Daniel incident, when he could have brought Daniel back, and Regina could have been finally happy, but they took that from her, thus creating the Evil Queen finally.
he could not bring Daniel back. Rumpel knew it was not possible that’s why he payed Dr. Frankenstein to keep practicing this medicine he wanted to know if there was really something more powerful than magic that can bring back the dead. he wanted Regina to know that so that she shouldn’t hold on to her past too much but start moving forward and enact that damn curse already. he knew she would do it from the prophecy but he felt bad that he made her a bad person so in SB he tried to help her redeem herself
I think Regina was very evil but I believe that Rumpel should be blamed for it. or maybe Bae. or the blue fairy. but Cora was bad from the start
[adrotate group="5"]@Phee wrote:
Concerning Rumple, we haven’t seen what he did for all of those 300 years, so to automatically say that because he’s been around longer, he automatically has a much higher death count is just an assumption. Obviously, he did enough that he got a reputation, but his title and appearance also helped with the reputation
He got a reputation, but let’s remember, too, that it wasn’t as evil as maybe he believed. Belle tells him in Lacey that no one knows his reputation for killing (like he wanted with RH). Instead his reputation is as a master deal maker. I have always found it interesting that Rumple, the Dark One, made deals with people instead of outright killing them. He manages to manipulate the situation and the people, but he almost never resorts to killing them. When he does kill, it’s out of anger and fear: the maid, Milah. Whatever reputation he cultivated in those 250+ years, it wasn’t as a brutal terror.
@Phee wrote:
She didn’t have to kill him, she could have locked him up in the hospital basement, though granted, that may have still been a fate as bad as death.
Again, I agree. When Regina kills, she kills senselessly. The villagers, Kurt, ect, all of those were very senseless killings. Plus she’s taken how many hearts? Rumple has only ever taken one heart, that we know of, and that was in a fit of rage and hurt. I do not excuse it, not at all, but he finds the act of heart taking distasteful. You can tell when he learns that Young Cora has taken her own heart that even Rumple wouldn’t do something like that.
@WickedRegal wrote:
Let’s go to the very beginning, Regina was the most pure hearted person ever shown on the show, even more pure than Snow, because Snow started out selfish in the beginning.
Alright, I agree that Regina was very pure hearted at the age of 19 (or however old she was supposed to be in the Stable Boy) but I think this is taking it a bit far. Rumple was just as pure hearted and good as she was when we saw him in A Desperate Soul. His only fault was being a coward, and let’s face it, so was Regina. She couldn’t stand up to her mother, and her solution was to run away. Very Rumple. They have always been more alike than different. As for Snow, there is a huge age gap between Snow as selfish (which was for about 20 seconds and doesn’t actually show how she was the rest of the time) and Regina. I don’t think it’s fair to classify Snow as a selfish brat when we only saw her like that for a very brief period of time, and it was instantly reversed by her mother’s speech and then her mother’s illness. If anything, Snow is unbelievably unselfish and kind because she couldn’t kill someone else to save her own mother.
As for everyone’s points on Cora, let’s not forget that she was the one who wanted power. The original deal Rumple purposed had him spin the gold for her, but it wasn’t enough. She wanted the power. She wanted to have the control. She was ambitious and power hungry and proud. Rumple didn’t turn her evil, Cora was already on her way: she lied and stole (the gown). Everything she did she proposed to learn from Rumple, like taking a heart. Rumple didn’t ask her if she wanted to learn, she asked to learn it. Cora in my mind has always been far worse than either Rumple or Regina. And I don’t blame Snow, Rumple, or Regina for Cora’s death: that was all Cora.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Mm, I think all four have a hand in killing Cora, and of the four, Regina is the least culpable because she was manipulated (by Snow, though only because Snow got caught red handed) and didn’t know she was killing Cora when she put the heart back. Cora’s definitely got a share, because she introduced (made?) the candle and must have allowed it to get to Rumple somehow, and also was being so evil that for Snow it was almost but not quite self-defense. (Rumple sees it as absolutely self-defense for both him and the Charmings, but Snow reasonably disagrees with that perception–she did it out of vengeance and motive matters.) Rumple gave the candle to Snow and told her how to use it, though ultimately the choice was hers (which is why he tells Regina honestly (Rumple honesty at least) that he did nothing–but at the same time I think he does feel a bit of sympathy for Regina at least, and perhaps some guilt for his part in her pain).
And then there is Regina who had, at that point, TWICE attempted to kill Cora. She hired Hook to kill her outright, and then she intended to kill her at the well rather than have her get to Storybrooke. She didn’t know she was killing Cora when she actually died, of course, but her understandable sorrow and justifiable anger at how things went down in the end are a little muted against the fact that she already tried to kill this woman–who hurt a lot of people to ruin Regina’s life–twice before. The only person Regina’s spent more time and energy trying to kill is Snow, I think.
Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing
When Cora was dying who was she talking to when she said “you would have been enough” Rumpel or Regina?
Possibly both, but I think mainly Regina. “You” can be plural or singular in standard modern English. So it works either way you want to interpret it.
Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing
@marty mcfly wrote:
When Cora was dying who was she talking to when she said “you would have been enough” Rumpel or Regina?
Great question. The full quote is:
This would have been enough. You would have been enough.
For the first sentence she’s looking at Rumple, indicating the idea of marriage and children with him. The second part, she switches and looks directly at Regina. So I think the “you” is referring to Regina, but the “this” means a life with Rumple and any children they may have had.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Rumple is a master puppeteer- he manipulates situations and plays on people’s hopes and desires, but I think he is far more rational than Regina. Regina is impulsive and reacts on emotion and revenge- probably what Rumple meant when he said that she was even more dangerous than Cora because she *does* have her heart. She didn’t even actually know what the curse was when she threatened everyone at Snow and Charming’s wedding. Rumple is more self-aware than Regina.
Rumple did his most vicious acts in the very early days when the Dark One curse first penetrated his soul, and he had less control and less understanding of it. By the time of the Dark Curse, he has had a lot more time to think. He has calmed down. He doesn’t kill just to kill. Every move is calculated. He has lived so long that he is able to understand how people’s minds work, so he gets his way through carefully planned deal making. He gives people exactly what they ask for.
They have both done terrible things, but I think Regina in many ways is a lot more vicious.
WickedRegal, I’ll grant you we could make more effort to list out Rumpel’s bad acts and include some of Regina’s actions under his column, since he “made” her, the same way we might attribute to Frankie the destruction caused by Gearhart. Still we have watched Regina do more evil things than Rumpel or Cora, whatever one might imagine happened in his life that we have not seen for sure.
Placing the blame on BF really makes me pause in following your logic down the track you have it going to try to make Regina look more innocent than she has been portrayed to be. You ignore the choices everyone made. If you want to ignore choice, then you may as well back it up to Zoso or the Ogres, as BF is not the ultimate source of the dominos falling far as we have seen. What you infer beyond the choices we see is whatever story you as a fan imagine, so that is different for everyone in what we think “must” have happened. So if you tilt the board for Regina, sure she isn’t going to look as bad, and others will look worse, but if you look at only what the SHOW depicts, then she has more screen time doing bad choices than Cora and Rumple.
Whatever manipulations Cora and Rumpel did to Regina, at some point she went from thinking “I don’t want to be like my mother’ to thinking “Yes, my mother is right. Hurt others to get what you want. Might makes right.” Rumpel did give Regina a choice, he didn’t tell her it was the only way. He said if she wanted him to teach her magic, she had to be willing to show dedication. She was the one who chose to rip out the heart of his apprentice, when what he had previously asked her to do was kill a unicorn. He wanted her to cast the dark curse, that’s true, but he definitely did not use his magic to compel or force her to do anything. He is evil for tempting her, for giving her false hope then yanking it away, encouraging her in some of what she did, but not everything.
He did not manipulate her into kidnapping Belle, or Owen, or killing Kurt or trying to curse Emma with the apple, or into trying to send the kids out of town (Hansel and Gretel), attempting to seduce David, or really most of the stuff she does in post-curse SB in season 1. Those actions Regina chose all on her own well outside of Rumpel needing to push her to some result of his own. Cora was not around either. Even when they were pushing her though, Regina had free will. She knew right from wrong. She chose wrong, repeatedly. She said it herself–she does not learn from her mistakes.
For both Regina and Rumpel there are of course those redeeming moments–when they do the right thing, help the heroes, or show love for someone (or get love from someone) good. I think you are right that in terms of adding up “evil” it is not really fair to overlook some of Rumpel’s actions, or his role in her evil, but for me, the overall impression I have is that if you put back Cora’s heart, if you took the curse off Rumpel, neither would have chosen to be as outright evil as Regina has been–though of course, we don’t know for sure. All we know is, she did all these things with her heart in place, without having a magical curse driving her. You can’t even say it is loss of love–Hook is not near her ballpark of evil and he had pretty much the same type of incident of true love’s heart being crushed. True, it wasn’t his own mother doing it, so much less traumatic for him–but he didn’t turn around and pin everything on Bae for some contrived reason (which I’ve seen sort of implied somewhere). Bae did not intend for Rumpel to curse the world to go find him–he cannot be held responsible for that!
In the end, we like the characters we like and we sympathize with them, perhaps overlooking some flaws or feeling some actions were justified, but we aren’t all equally logical about how we do it (like I have seen someone, who perhaps was joking, say Kurt was to blame for Regina killing him since he was rude). Keb has quite the tracking system, so if there are more bad acts for Rumpel that I forgot that Keb did not mention I’d reconsider my opinion, but at this point, that is where I come out too.
I guarantee you this–more people outright hate Tamara and want her to die, than feel that way about Regina, even though Regina has been shown on screen doing more evil things. Most fans say Regina is evil, but they have hope she can be redeemed. I am not sure I have read a lot of that sentiment for Tamara.
So in the end, does it matter if a lot of people think Regina is worse? Most still think redemption will be possible.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Well, I dunno if my tracking is all that accurate…I think my deathcount is as accurate as possible save for the “how much is a village” question, but the attempted killings are harder since motivation matters so much there. Like, do you count Emma and Snow against Rumple there when he wanted to seal the well? He seemed convinced that they wouldn’t be the ones to come through, so at best he probably saw them as unlikely collateral damage…so does that count or not?
It’s also worth pointing out that almost all the “good” guys have killed at this point, too, save for Belle, Henry, and Neal. (So everyone on the ship? Yup, they’ve killed someone. Emma killed Maleficent–okay, a dragon, in self-defense, but it was still Mal, David’s killed plenty of guards, Hook killed two guards just to get to Belle, and Snow bears the primary guilt for Cora. And we’ve already talked about Rumple and Regina.) And all of them have threatened to kill more people than they actually have killed–Emma threatened Regina, David’s threatened Hook and George, Hook’s attempted to kill lots of people including Rumple, Regina (remember Cora’s counter plan?), Cora, and Belle, and even Snow attempted/threatened to kill Regina a few times in the EF.
Most of them have spent some time behind bars, too, though not all justly (like Belle, who’s got the longest record of imprisonment for pretty much the crime of Liking Rumple). Um. Yes. I might have a spreadsheet for that, too.
Point is…the good guys aren’t all so good, the bad guys aren’t all so bad, and everyone’s got the chance to redeem himself if he really wants to. I think Regina and Rumple do and will ultimately. Same with Hook.
Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing
@Keb wrote:
Point is…the good guys aren’t all so good, the bad guys aren’t all so bad, and everyone’s got the chance to redeem himself if he really wants to. I think Regina and Rumple do and will ultimately. Same with Hook.
I think this is the takeaway point of it all. We could debate for pages and pages (and we have in the past) about who is worse but making a list of their bad deeds doesn’t mean there isn’t going to be redemption. Both characters have a long road to travel and for sure they are going to continue making mistakes, their path to redemption has to be believable after all.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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