who’s worse Rumpel or Regina? list all bad things each did

[PriceofMagic]

@Keb wrote:

Hook killed two guards just to get to Belle

I think Hook probably killed more than two guards hence why Regina was so impressed. Belle was an important “chess piece” for Regina, Regina wouldn’t be so stupid to only leave two guards guarding her especially if the plan was to use Belle against Rumple at some point. Since Belle was locked in the tower and there were many flights of stairs, I would think there was at least two guards guarding a set number of stairs.

[Keb]

Oh, I know. But I’m limiting my kills to those we’ve seen on screen, though more than one person can be responsible for a particular kill (and ordering your guards to kill someone counts). Claude and his buddy are the only people we’ve -seen- Hook successfully kill.

He’s come close but failed with:

Cora
Belle
Rumple
and Emma

And could easily have killed Archie, while he assisted both Cora and GOAT in plots to kill Regina.

Likewise, I fully believe that Cora, Rumple, and Regina have all killed more than we’ve seen on screen. But I’m not going to estimate those because we have no actual canonical evidence for more deaths than they’ve shown.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[WickedRegal]

Look, to all Charmings, Swans, Stilskins, and my Fellow Regals, I can never fault any of you for thinking the way you do about certain characters, it’s the show’s fault, I know it sounds illogical as hell, but it’s the truth, it’s the show, Adam and Eddy seem to have been beating down on Regina, trying to show how wicked she is, and also Rumple, they beat down on him a little, but Regina’s been through a lot this past season, both in fairytale land to Storybrooke, from Daniel situation, Cora situation, which let me say my dears, that Cora truly loved Regina in the end, and for those who say Regina tried to kill her all this time, let me clarify something, Cora never apologized, and expressed her love to Regina like she did in 2×11 The Outsider, so take that into consideration, Regina expressed clearly to Cora why she did when she thought she was dead in the coffin, so I will admit Cora’s fault for installing that into Regina, her words nearly came back to haunt her in the end, and correction, it’s 75% Snow’s fault why Cora died, and 25% Rumples.
Now as for the blame on Blue Fairy, dears, come on, despite the show hasn’t shown, every child has called upon BF at least once, and she didn’t answer Regina, but she might have been scared of Cora, and I repeat Regina has made some very terrible choices, some Regals approve, others Regals don’t, but she’s not the only one. And c’mon, of course Rumple couldn’t bring Daniel back, I was referring to Whale, had Rumple allowed Whale to bring Daniel, like he did Gerhardt, it could have worked, and it shows in 2×05 The Doctor, it worked, but the wrong heart filled with darkness caused Daniel a lot of pain.
And on the note of Regina being a coward, dears, let me set this straight, Regina Mills, The Evil Queen is never, and will never be a coward like Rumple was. Regina has faced death more times on this show than anyone else, and stood with her head held high, and dignity intact waiting for the end. Regina has no fear of death, and if you can look death in the face, mock it, and smile, then too me, you’re the bravest of them all. True Regina is far more vicious, but look who her mother was, and look who her teacher was, a combination of the two will make you wildly vicious.
And us Evil Regals have come to the conclusion, it’s going to take a man to drive out all the hurt and pain Regina’s been through, and she has suffered like no one else, and the only person who could probably even relate to her is Rumple, because he’s suffered.
And no matter what anyone says about our Queen, Regina may crack at times, but she will never be broken. Queen Regina is the strongest woman on the show, besides Emma, who hopefully now they can team up to save THEIR son.

"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor

[RumplesGirl]

@WickedRegal wrote:

Look, to all Charmings, Swans, Stilskins, and my Fellow Regals, I can never fault any of you for thinking the way you do about certain characters, it’s the show’s fault, I know it sounds illogical as hell, but it’s the truth, it’s the show, Adam and Eddy seem to have been beating down on Regina, trying to show how wicked she is, and also Rumple, they beat down on him a little, but Regina’s been through a lot this past season, both in fairytale land to Storybrooke, from Daniel situation, Cora situation, which let me say my dears, that Cora truly loved Regina in the end, and for those who say Regina tried to kill her all this time, let me clarify something, Cora never apologized, and expressed her love to Regina like she did in 2×11 The Outsider, so take that into consideration, Regina expressed clearly to Cora why she did when she thought she was dead in the coffin, so I will admit Cora’s fault for installing that into Regina, her words nearly came back to haunt her in the end, and correction, it’s 75% Snow’s fault why Cora died, and 25% Rumples

Adam and Eddy created these characters and they can do what they will with them. To say that how Regina is being portrayed is the show’s fault is faulty logic because this show is about those characters and how they are written, not how the fans want them to be written. You have to look at the show as a text. Regina is wicked. She even admits it in the end of this season. She has done horrible vile things. So has Rumple. So has Cora. That’s what makes them villains. Regina cannot achieve redemption in one season because that is illogical and unbelievable. Her heart is very black and it takes a long time to come back from that. Even after she promised Henry she’d be good, she couldn’t bring herself to destroy the magic book. Magic and power are her weakness, she feels as though she needs them. She was never going to stay on the wagon, so to speak, just as it was illogical to assume that Rumple wouldn’t go dark side again once he felt that he had lost everything. And as to Cora, Snow was manipulated by Rumple, to be sure, but you can’t lay it all on Snow. Cora had done terrible things to this family. She killed Snow’s mother. She killed Snow’s nanny. She threatened the lives of everyone Snow loves. Maybe Cora should have gotten a trial but in fairy tales, justice is swift. And I’m sorry but one moment of truth from Cora does not absolve her of her MANY sins. Her heart wasn’t black because she removed it from her chest before she began to do anything truly wicked.

Now as for the blame on Blue Fairy, dears, come on, despite the show hasn’t shown, every child has called upon BF at least once, and she didn’t answer Regina, but she might have been scared of Cora, and I repeat Regina has made some very terrible choices, some Regals approve, others Regals don’t, but she’s not the only one. And c’mon, of course Rumple couldn’t bring Daniel back, I was referring to Whale, had Rumple allowed Whale to bring Daniel, like he did Gerhardt, it could have worked, and it shows in 2×05 The Doctor, it worked, but the wrong heart filled with darkness caused Daniel a lot of pain.

We have never ever ever ever once seen Regina call for the BF to help her. You cannot assume she did just to redeem your favorite character. Regina did not ask for help. Until that scene is shown on screen, you cannot make these leaps in judgement.

And on the note of Regina being a coward, dears, let me set this straight, Regina Mills, The Evil Queen is never, and will never be a coward like Rumple was. Regina has faced death more times on this show than anyone else, and stood with her head held high, and dignity intact waiting for the end. Regina has no fear of death, and if you can look death in the face, mock it, and smile, then too me, you’re the bravest of them all. True Regina is far more vicious, but look who her mother was, and look who her teacher was, a combination of the two will make you wildly vicious.

Please stop telling me what is “true” just because you’re an EvilRegal and I’m not. I’m reading the text and coming to my own conclusions, the same as you. Cora frightened Regina. Regina was scared of her mother and her mothers magic. Instead of telling her mother that she wanted to be free, she chose to try and run away. And then when she saw what her mother was capable of, Regina was so scared that she placed all her hatred on to a little girl who was not at fault at all. Cowardice comes in many forms. It doesn’t have to be running away. It can also be, like Rumple, trying to amass enough power to make up for your own fear. That’s what Regina did. She was scared of her mother, scared of being Queen, scared of living without love, so she learned magic and became powerful.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Keb]

Oh, I won’t argue that Regina’s a coward, though I think it’s more pride than bravery that carries her through.

And I admit that as a Dearie, Belle, and Rumbeller I am very very partial to Rumple and less forgiving of Regina’s than of Rumple’s faults. No question I’m biased, though there are plenty of times I want to shake Rumple for what he does. (And so many times I just want to cuddle him and make it all better.)

And yes, Cora did love Regina. That doesn’t mean she didn’t abuse her or take away her agency a LOT. She also wasn’t able to express real love until her heart was returned; it was only a partial love. Rumple observed that the people whom you love are capable of inflicting the most pain, and that’s exactly what we see with the Cora-Regina relationship. Regina loves her mother, but she still chose to send her to another world rather than be with her, and then chose to send Hook to kill her, and then chose to help Rumple try to kill her rather than have her come to Storybrooke. Cora loves Regina, but shows it by trapping her with magic when she doesn’t do precisely what Cora wants, and killing her true love in front of her, and forcing her to get engaged to a king who only wants someone to be a mother for his daughter. She frames Regina for murder, knowing that will break her will and make her more susceptible to manipulation, and uses her weakness–her love for Henry–to get her to cooperate in her own plans to seize the DO’s power.

And you can blame all that evilness on her not having her heart; fine. But here’s Cora in 216, with her heart: “I want their knees to crunch on the stones…” “Bloodlust…” “Fifth in line for the throne. That’s a lot of bloodshed.” “I want to rip out his heart.” And then her actions, which are stronger than words–she rips out her own heart so she can reject a person she claims to truly love and break his heart in the process.

That’s how Cora treats the people she actually loves. Rumple didn’t make her that way; he only gave her access to her magical power. (Which Adam has said requires someone to be born with a spark, and then training, so she had the power all along and just didn’t know how to use it yet.) And I see no evidence whatsoever that he was involved in any of her choices beyond teaching her magic, before or after she ripped out her heart.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

Also, as for “all children call on the BF,” um, no. She doesn’t always come, either–Snow TRIED to call her and got Cora instead. (Yeah, Blue didn’t come because Snow never got to actually make her wish, but still.)

So, no, not all children call her and she doesn’t always come to them if they don’t. We don’t have any reason to believe Regina called her EVER and things didn’t get horrible for Regina until Daniel was dead anyway.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[RumplesGirl]

@Keb wrote:

Also, as for “all children call on the BF,” um, no. She doesn’t always come, either–Snow TRIED to call her and got Cora instead. (Yeah, Blue didn’t come because Snow never got to actually make her wish, but still.)

So, no, not all children call her and she doesn’t always come to them if they don’t. We don’t have any reason to believe Regina called her EVER and things didn’t get horrible for Regina until Daniel was dead anyway.

Just to clarify, Snow never wished for the BF. She was confused about which star she was supposed to call for and instead “Blue” came to her instead because had Snow called on Blue, she probably would have come. Cora had to prevent Snow actually calling on Blue.

Snow White: Is that the star? …Or is it that one?

(The Blue Fairy appears.)

Blue Fairy: Worry not, Snow White. I have found you.

Snow White: The Blue Fairy. I knew you’d come, but… I didn’t even make my wish yet.

Blue Fairy: Well, I know when I’m needed. Your mother, the Queen, is sick.

But, yes, Regina never called on Blue. We have never seen that.

@Keb wrote:

Oh, I won’t argue that Regina’s a coward, though I think it’s more pride than bravery that carries her through.

I argued this above, but cowardice is not simply running away , though that’s what Regina tries to do with Daniel because she cannot face her mother for fear of Cora’s wrath and magic. But Rumple remains a coward, no matter how much power he gets, because the sheer act of obtaining power is an act of cowardice. He’d rather hide behind power and magic than be his real self. Same with Regina. She hides behind magic and power because of her fears.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[WickedRegal]

😈 + 😆
Oh dear did we strike a nerve with the Stilskin Dearies, well no offense, but some of you just aren’t listening well to the politeness of my former argument, and dear God, how can you love somebody who is downright wicked? Now in the real world, cowardice is your fault, but thank God the Once Characters weren’t born in the real world because everyone would be in prison for the common crime of murder. But, woo, I don’t want to dwell too deep, but again let me clarify, the show is Adam and Eddy’s, and true I believe it’s a tad bit unfair how Rumpelstilskin was climbing the latter so high, was Regina was spiraling down.
And the fact that Rumpelstilskin, the one who manipulated all of this, and believe me, I’m not making assumptions, look at Rumple’s history, now sounds to me, he would not be sitting around spinning golg, but manipulating, and destroying lives of innocent people so he can get back the son he let go of for powerm, at least Regina was attempting to deal with the Charmings rudeness (Excluding Emma), just for the sake of Henry. Now, TRUE in fact, I have simply no idea why David treated Regina the way he did when he was almost friends with her, before Snow and Emma returned. He allowed Henry to see her, and spend time with her. So much could have been avoided had Emma looked through Regina’s memories instead of a dog, and not lashed out at her the way that she did! But shoulda, coulda, woulda, too late, what’s done is done.
I do believe that Blue Fairy should have helped Regina, with our without her calling, because she came swiftly to Pinocchio without him calling, compared to a girl who was getting abused physically and mentally on a daily basis.
And back on Cora, I will say this one last time, Cora had a very hard upbringing, and seems to me, her father wasn’t that much a father, but a drunk. Cora appareantly always had to fend for herself, while getting humiliated for being the Miller’s Daughter. Cora desired power so she can make a stand for herself, and to bring down the ones who kept her down so long, especially when you’re like 27, and having an 18 year old trip you, and getting away with it just because she’s a princess. Now, did Eva deserve what she got, she might have, they story needs to be explored some more, and it’s in perfect nature of humanity to wish harm on those who did you wrong, so we cannot blame her for those wicked thoughts. Cora fell deeply in love with Rumple, but then a choice has to be made, either I can stay here, be princess with power and money, where my future children can be happy, or go with the man I truly love, but risk always being hunted down, killed for calling off the wedding, and my child be in danger constantly. What would be your choice, her’s was rip my heart out, suck it up, and go for the wedding. And if you want someone to blame for breaking Rumple’s blackened heart, then blame King Xavier for putting those thoughts in Cora’s head.
I will repeat this, Regina is no coward, and she’s not a fool. She knew Cora would never accept her love for Daniel, and she most definetly wasn’t scared to be Queen, she wanted to be free! And even Snow knew that nobody would ever love Regina no more, which she stated in 1×07 Heart Is A Lonely Hunter, so what else to do, run away and have nothing, or stay and be Queen! And again, Regina stared death in the face and laughed! So she is no coward!

"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor

[Josephine]

I think Regina is a coward. Facing death doesn’t mean that you’re brave. It’s something everyone has to do eventually whether you’re brave or a coward. Like Keb, I think it was more pride than anything that caused her to be defiant during her bouts of death. She chose a way to escape her problems, not by solving them, but my obtaining power. Just like her mother and Rumple. They were all cowards. Also, instead of laying blame on her mother for Daniel’s death, she blamed a young child. I don’t care what angle you look at it, Snow was a child and has no blame in Daniel’s death. She did not rip out his heart, she did not commit the crime.

I do like Regina, I’m not a hater. She’s a delicious villain, but at this point I just don’t feel any empathy for her. I want to root for her. I truly do, but until she stops blaming everyone else and begins to repent for the things she’s done, then she’s never going to turn a corner. Her and Rumple really do need to be in a 12 step program.

I think the one big difference between Rumple and Regina is that Rumple knows what he does is wrong. He warns how evil he is and acknowledges that he’s a monster. Regina on the other hand thinks that everyone else is at fault and she’s just misunderstood. Both make great villains, though, and that’s why we all love this show so much.

Keeper of Rumplestiltskin's and Neal's spears and war paint and crystal ball.

[Keb]

Yes, Cora had a hard life. You earlier alleged that Rumple probably made it that way; I don’t see any evidence (yet) for that claim, and refuted it to the best of my ability earlier. Her motivation for seeking power is understanding, and to that extent she is a bit sympathetic.

And yes, Xavier is the one who told Cora that love is weakness, but she chose to act on that. And nowhere is it suggested that she would be hunted down or that her children would be in danger with Rumple; Xavier, like Rumple, offered her a choice. When she debated how many people she’d have to kill to be queen and asked Rumple about going with him, he said he could offer only darkness and isolation–and, when prompted, yes, love. But those things are not the same as danger; Rumple had more than enough power to protect her and any children they would have had at that point.

Xavier told her that love is weakness, and appealed to her inner nature and pride. He then offered her a crown and people bowing before her. She alone made the choice between the two, and her breaking Rumple’s heart was her own doing. She chose power over love, just as he’d done with Bae, but here it’s portrayed as a cold and rational choice while his was a moment of fear that he instantly regretted. (He also does this with Belle but again, though he takes a little time to think it through and smash stuff first, it seems to be more out of fear than a purely cold choice of power over love. And again he regrets it almost right away–you see how eager he is to offer her a home when Regina says she’s in trouble, and how crushed he is to learn she’s dead.) I think the only glimmer of regret we ever see from Cora about it is the “This would have been enough” that might be directed at Gold as she’s dying. Perhaps she can’t regret because she doesn’t have her heart, but regardless…she made a choice of her own free will.

And then proceeded to terrorize Regina. Honestly, I think Regina’s dark doings are more a result of Cora’s manipulations and teaching than Rumple’s, with the exception of the actions leading directly to the Curse.

BF came to help August/Pinocchio because Henry said they needed her (as best I can guess). She didn’t come to Snow because Snow didn’t get to make her wish (as RG clarified). She didn’t come to Regina because Regina never asked. BF has no obligation to help those who do not ask for it, and even when they do ask, her powers to help are limited (she couldn’t help Rumple follow Bae, she couldn’t fix Geppetto’s parents, she couldn’t help August until he died trying to save the town).

And debating with you, while acknowledging our biases, is not the same as ignoring politeness. I don’t think anyone has attacked you personally. Yes, we all love our favorite characters and that colors how we see things in the show. You’re welcome to your headcanons as well, but we’re going to argue back if you try to insist that we’re wrong (or the show itself is wrong) because something you believe happened hasn’t been shown in the show (or at least stated in an interview or something).

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

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