who’s worse Rumpel or Regina? list all bad things each did

[WickedRegal]

Keb, I do so thank you for your politeness, true indeed, I did not mean to offend any of you, I didn’t even plan on commenting on this continuous charade of who’s more wicked, but I also wanted to set the record straight, being that even though Regina has many flaws, some created by Rumple, others by Cora, it’s not right to simply exploit all of her wrongdoing like so many, when people like Rumple, did just as much, or more evil, or when Snow killed Cora, and “accidently” told Regina’s secret, I’m personally waiting on a sincere apology for that mishap in Season 3, David and Emma, okay with me, and Henry just became okay. And they are family, all trying to find their happy ending. But always remember, just because we haven’t seen it, doesn’t mean it’s not there.

[RumplesGirl]

The problem here is that your “setting the record straight” is that your interpretation is just that..an interepretation that is colored by your own subjective filter, in this case your love of Regina. Just because you’re an EvilRegal does not mean that you have a deeper understanding of Regina anymore than my being a Dearie means I have a deeper understanding of Rumple. It means you have a greater capacity for sympathy for Regina and I have a greater capacity for sympathy for Rumple. The only two people who truly know and understand these characters are Adam Horrowitz and Eddy Kitiss. That is what I was trying to say and I’m sorry if you took that as fighting with you but we must must must always acknowledge our own agendas and personal stances. There is always room for healthy debate but we have to acknowledge that our love of one particular character always skews our arguments.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[MysteryKat25]

@RumplesGirl wrote:

The problem here is that your “setting the record straight” is that your interpretation is just that..an interepretation that is colored by your own subjective filter, in this case your love of Regina. Just because you’re an EvilRegal does not mean that you have a deeper understanding of Regina anymore than my being a Dearie means I have a deeper understanding of Rumple. It means you have a greater capacity for sympathy for Regina and I have a greater capacity for sympathy for Rumple. The only two people who truly know and understand these characters are Adam Horrowitz and Eddy Kitiss. That is what I was trying to say and I’m sorry if you took that as fighting with you but we must must must always acknowledge our own agendas and personal stances. There is always room for healthy debate but we have to acknowledge that our love of one particular character always skews our arguments.

RG – I agree with your last statement 100%. Loving one more the other is perfectly fine and you’re right, it does just show the capacity for be more forgiving of them and their mistakes than others might be. We all have different filters and are entitled to our opinions, but they are just that: opinions.

Let me start off by saying I love both Rumple AND Regina. They are both deliciously complex and I can’t wait to see what happens with them because while they’re both on the road to redemption, they still have a long way to go and are very compelling characters.

I’m glad that pretty much every character has people who are so willing to passionately defend them above all others. Everyone needs someone in their corner. I think part of the problem with this particular thread, other than the two characters in question having such passionate fans, is that some of the wording is coming across as very patronizing and “I’m right, you’re wrong” and it’s ruffling a lot of feathers. Some may be more familiar with Regina’s side of things, others with Rumple’s, but that doesn’t make anybody “right” or “wrong” about their OPINIONS on the matter. To each their own, it’s not worth tearing other fans apart. Love what you love & be happy about it, but we really don’t need more chances to rip each other to pieces for no reason. BOTH characters are complex and wonderful and are backbones of this show and I can’t wait to see what they do in the future.

As for what we haven’t seen but can guess at this is one of the problems. Just because we know versions of the stories doesn’t mean we know how OUAT will handle them. Likewise, a good general rule of thumb with these writers in particular is if we haven’t seen how it actually happened yet, don’t assume we know exactly what went down in any given situation. We can guess til we’re blue in the face and blame certain people, but there is always the chance that they throw us a curveball and shake up everything we thought we knew before. Let’s just wait and see.

Having said all that:

Nobody on this show is a saint and some characters (especially Regina & Rumple) have done some awful things along the way. (Not one or the other; BOTH). I don’t see much point in trying to debate who is worse, when both are set up for (long, drawn-out) redemption arcs and are at least trying to be better people than their pasts would lead you to believe. Defending one and condemning the other is silly & makes the arguments laughable and takes away from any serious discussion on the matter because of it.

The nice thing about a show like this vs real life is that in real life they’d all be locked up or killed by now and we wouldn’t have a story. The shades of grey with these characters and watching them struggle to redeem themselves is what is so compelling about this show. Regina & Rumple both were good people once and trying to become that way again (with the right motivation).

For some of us, it’s actually quite easy to be open to both of their arcs and see them both happening. Loving one more than the other is fine, but defending one and ridiculing the other is hypocritical. What’s good for one is good for the other. They have both done truly awful things. I don’t believe for a second that the show has any plans to give only one or the other a happy ending. They are not setting up Rumple to have Belle & Bae and kicking Regina to the curb with nothing. She has an equally long arc but they have set up more than enough to show it moving in that direction.

Loving the character and wanting to root for them doesn’t mean putting blinders on and defending absolutely every stupid mistake they’ve ever made either, regardless of what led them to make them in the first place. Every person on this show has done something stupid at some point in time and declaring them perfect or excusing every awful thing they’ve ever done gets us absolutely nowhere.

In loving a particular character, it’s easy to defend them (especially when it feels like they’re being attacked – believe me, I know the feeling) but while each character has been manipulated by something (yes, BOTH Regina & Rumple have been manipulated into being who they are), blaming one for the other doesn’t get us anywhere either. There’s always someone higher up the ladder to blame for why they are the way they are and BOTH can be defended in this manner. It’s not nor will ever be as cut & dried as “Rumple made Regina the way she is so clearly he’s worse, stop defending him” because as was pointed out, a LOT of things went into making Regina the way she is, going back to Cora & Xavier as much as Rumple.

With regards to Rumple, we can also blame the other Dark One, the Seer, not to mention that technically none of the events we know of with Regina would have happened if Bae hadn’t wanted Rumple to change back to being who he was when he wasn’t ready to do that.

If you look hard enough, you can probably place blame on just about anybody for anything and we still don’t know how Peter Pan/NL fit into everything since they have a picture of Henry long before he’s born so we may not yet know WHO is at the top of this chain of events yet.

As with anything, there is always a choice: Rumple made the choices he made and was led down those paths by Zoso and the Seer. Regina made the choices she made. Was she directed down a certain path? Sure she was, it’s what Rumple wanted. Did she HAVE to do the things he wanted her to? No – she had a choice as her father reminded her right before she killed him to enact the curse.

As far as the BF goes, it seems that she needs to be wished for or called. I don’t think she’s out patrolling say “oh look, that person might need me even though they’ve never heard of me and don’t know how to reach me.” Do the upbringings for a lot of the characters on the show suck? Yes. Does that mean that every little thing is the BF’s fault because she didn’t step in and stop it all from happening? No.

I love the complexity of these characters and look forward to how they’re dealt with but some have a longer road to redemption/love/whatever it is than others do. These are H&K’s characters, their babies if you will, and they love them all. Just because we haven’t seen things happen for them soooo quickly doesn’t mean that they don’t have wonderful plans for them down the line. There’s lots of story left to tell and I look forward to seeing everyone be happy but if that happens right this second, we have no more show.

Believe me I get what it feels like to have your favorite characters on the backburner and feel like everything is going soooo well for others and yours is getting ignored, but as a writer myself and more importantly as a FAN I am sick of seeing people attack Adam on twitter because they feel their character is being underserved or treated horribly. They love all the characters and have big plans for them (and Regina got a lot more airtime this season than most). Let’s let it play out the way they want it to and stop tearing their baby apart. They have said repeatedly how much they love Rumple & Regina. They are not trying to destroy them or play favorites, there are story arcs and things that don’t involve them sometimes or show them taking a step backward when they were doing well before that, but that’s realistic. Nobody is going to recover from being a magic-addict overnight and just because Rumple has found his family (even though he has a long way to go at solidifying those relationships) doesn’t mean that they hate Regina and just want her to suffer. They love her too and I’m sure she has a great path ahead of her just like everyone else (and she made HUGE steps forward in the finale).

It is absolutely pointless to bring character goggles into it because obviously when you love a character, you see things from a different angle and don’t get why others can’t see that, but the same is true of people on the opposite side of things. There are pros and cons to both Rumple & Regina and both are well-loved for a reason.

Why people feel the need to pit people against each other or ridicule people for daring to like something different is beyond me. I thought the shipping stuff was getting out of line this summer, the last thing I expected was to go back to S1 arguments of Rumple vs. Regina. Both have made progress, and taken steps back, and that’s OK. We have a lot of story left to tell and ripping other fans to shreds over something that can’t and shouldn’t really be answered because they’re trying to become better people now is pointless.

Maybe I’m a bit touchy because all I’ve seen lately on a variety of characters are things like “but they did ___ therefore they are unredeemable” and with this show, never say never. What’s worse to me is saying “___ did this and it’s unredeemable but it’s perfectly fine for this other person who has done equal if not worse things too but they’re OK now because they’re not like that anymore.” This show is all about HOPE and watching these very complex characters, some who have truly awful things, find their way back and become the people they always wanted to be. Otherwise what is the point of watching?

I really don’t buy the argument that the show itself is putting down Regina and I find it rather insulting to both the writers and myself to be told that the show is telling me to hate certain types of things / certain characters, and I find most of that is specifically brought up with regards to Regina. Her story is SO much more complex than that but we aren’t taught by the show to hate her or put her down. Yes she has been through a lot this season but all of that will help her GROW in the long-run and bring her closer to being the person she wants to be who can be accepted by everyone she alienated when she was doing horrible things. She took a HUGE step in the finale and I’m sure will continue to build off of that in the future. If she hadn’t gone through a lot this season, it wouldn’t have felt realistic and we wouldn’t have seen her much if there wasn’t a point to what she went through.

For the record she is not the only character who has been through a lot. Many others have as well but it is easy to pay more attention to and think more deeply about what a character you relate to is going through and feel like nobody else is feeling that way about their character (we are all guilty of doing this from time to time) but they have ALL been through a lot. I certainly don’t see it as the show telling us not to root for her because we’ve seen her go through a lot. What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, right? And she needs to be stronger to give up her magic crutch to prove to Henry that she can be just Regina like she wants to be (I LOVED her comments to Emma in the finale).

So as a fan of Regina’s and wanting her to grow and get the things she wants in the future (and in the right way) then we should be celebrating that. Just like we celebrate Rumple getting closer to having what he wants as well (not to mention every other character on the show).

Man, I thought the shipping wars were bad *shakes head & walks away*

Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.

[kfchimera]

I typed a lot of this before some other posts were finished, but it took me so long I’m posting it anyway.
@WickedRegal wrote:

😈 + 😆
Oh dear did we strike a nerve with the Stilskin Dearies, well no offense, but some of you just aren’t listening well to the politeness of my former argument, and dear God, how can you love somebody who is downright wicked?

I’m not the type to get in character defending any character, but I cut you some slack on the politeness of your posts, since I thought that was what you were doing (getting in character).

@WickedRegal wrote:

I believe it’s a tad bit unfair how Rumpelstilskin was climbing the latter so high, was Regina was spiraling down.

The Charmings do seem to be a bit soft on Rumple, but I think it has to do with the fact that Rumpel didn’t make it obvious to them that he was out to get them–because he wasn’t out to get them. He just wanted to find Bae, and anything he did that harmed them or anyone else was collateral damage to him, or in the case of a few, an exaggerated and wicked response to an injury the person did (or he thought) they did to him (Milah, Moe, Sheriff, Robin Hood, Regina). Regina on the other hand, it was her goal to harm them, and anyone who wasn’t outright against them (and even then she would). She said she wanted to be the ONLY one with a happy ending. So she defined happiness in terms of others unhappiness–and that is a level of wickedness that I don’t think any other character has reached.

At the start of Season 2, she realized this was not a good path to happiness. She began to change. She started to realize that happiness might be found in Henry’s love, if she could just stop using magic. Then Cora came, and Regina wanted that shortcut to Henry’s love, and well, fell off the path. I don’t think she is back to defining her happiness as other’s suffering, but I do think her willingness to activate the fail-safe meant she still hadn’t gotten to the point that “the happiness of others, will also bring my happiness.” I think she just felt she couldn’t get a clean start if anyone knew of her past–so she had to kill them all. Pretty sad and lacking empathy, but growth from wanting to see others suffer.

@WickedRegal wrote:

And the fact that Rumpelstilskin, the one who manipulated all of this, and believe me, I’m not making assumptions, look at Rumple’s history, now sounds to me, he would not be sitting around spinning golg, but manipulating, and destroying lives of innocent people so he can get back the son he let go of for powerm, at least Regina was attempting to deal with the Charmings rudeness (Excluding Emma), just for the sake of Henry.

Fair enough, Rumpel might have done more than just hang out in his estate–but it still was not shown to us exactly what he did. Whatever he did though, earned him a pretty scary reputation, but not so scary that desperate people feared to deal with him. Belle’s father looked to Rumpel as a potential savior against the ogres. He’s like a mob fixer or something–he’ll take care of your problem, but the offer is one you probably should refuse.

How exactly were the Charmings rude? I must have missed the part of the ettiquette book where you are supposed to be nice to the lady who crashed your wedding, cursed you, tried to have you framed for murder (twice), tried to kill you (but couldn’t because of a protection spell), and a host of other things. When Regina called a truce, she expected them to just welcome her back with open arms, and she should have realized Hallmark doesn’t exactly make a card for that situation for a reason.

@WickedRegal wrote:

So much could have been avoided had Emma looked through Regina’s memories instead of a dog, and not lashed out at her the way that she did! But shoulda, coulda, woulda, too late, what’s done is done.

Trouble is, trust is earned, and Regina had not really earned any. Yes Emma should have looked at Regina’s memories but maybe the spell did not work that way on a human or they realized that Regina could have manipulated it. Cora might still have found something else to make Regina isolated, as that was what Cora wanted.
@Wickedregal wrote:

I do believe that Blue Fairy should have helped Regina, with our without her calling, because she came swiftly to Pinocchio without him calling, compared to a girl who was getting abused physically and mentally on a daily basis.

We saw one instance of Cora using her power on Regina, and it seemed obviously hinted that it was not the first time, but it may not have been daily or even an old habit for all of Regina’s life. So we don’t know when Cora’s treatment of Regina became “abuse” rather than strict parenting. We don’t know if Cora warded off BF from helping. We just have to imagine an awful lot, and if you want to imagine that BF has enough magic and the duty to help every suffering kid in FTL and is evil because she does not–then you are once again,rewriting the story. We know fairies have a limited amount of dust and that the kid has to wish–and there’s probably something else defining when BF can help and when she cannot. She may be sneaky, she may just be held down by the magical equivalent of “red tape”. Plus you are downplaying the importance of free will. Cora chose to do evil things, and Regina suffered, but Regina still could have been a good person–her rescue of Snow shows that. Even after Daniel died, Regina didn’t want to be like her mother. So BF did not need to have helped her, even if she could have, because Regina wasn’t so damaged that she had no idea of right or wrong.

@WickedRegal wrote:

And back on Cora, I will say this one last time, Cora had a very hard upbringing, and seems to me, her father wasn’t that much a father, but a drunk. Cora appareantly always had to fend for herself, while getting humiliated for being the Miller’s Daughter.

Yes, she did, but you know who else had a hard life? Emma, Bae and Cinderella. The worst things Bae and Emma did was steal, and Cindy tried to sell off her own baby, but none of them went all crazy bloodlust, serial killer, child abuser like Cora. Some people rise above, some sink below.

@WickedRegal wrote:

,Cora desired power so she can make a stand for herself, and to bring down the ones who kept her down so long, especially when you’re like 27, and having an 18 year old trip you, and getting away with it just because she’s a princess. Now, did Eva deserve what she got, she might have, they story needs to be explored some more, and it’s in perfect nature of humanity to wish harm on those who did you wrong, so we cannot blame her for those wicked thoughts.

Yes, we can blame Cora, because she didn’t have just “wicked thoughts”–she carried out a murder years later after such a minor insult in the scheme of things. If you want to imagine and write more into the story that somehow justifies Cora killing Eva, then others are free to imagine and write more that makes that killing even more cruel and unjustified.

Let’s imagine that Eva married Leopold, and after seeing his kind example, she realized how bratty she had been. She reaches out to Cora, apologizes profusely, and Cora rebuffs her because, as we know, Cora has no heart. Undaunted, Eva vows to change Cora’s mind, and become a truly good person. So Eva sets out to do many good works in her own kingdom. She becomes so beloved by the people of her kingdom, that Cora gets jealous. People are singing Eva’s praises, and hardly anyone likes Cora (who continues to be mean and petty). It gets to the point that despite all Cora’s gold and wealth, that it becomes hard to get people to trade with Xavier’s kingdom. Queen Eva offers aid–but Cora sharply refuses. Nobles and Peasants begin to flee the tyranny in Xavier’s kingdom. Despite Eva’s offer to grant nobility & a safe haven from the angry mobs in Xavier’s kindom, –Cora refuses out of pride. She uses her magic to create an estate of her own far from anyone, out of the royal loop, but Cora vows to topple Eva one day, because Cora just won’t let her grudge go. So in this bit of fan fiction, Eva does everything possible to make amends and Cora just won’t let it go. Because she is too prideful and wicked to have empathy for others.

@WickedRegal wrote:

Cora fell deeply in love with Rumple, but then a choice has to be made, either I can stay here, be princess with power and money, where my future children can be happy, or go with the man I truly love, but risk always being hunted down, killed for calling off the wedding, and my child be in danger constantly. What would be your choice, her’s was rip my heart out, suck it up, and go for the wedding. And if you want someone to blame for breaking Rumple’s blackened heart, then blame King Xavier for putting those thoughts in Cora’s head.

Xavier was a piece of work, no doubt. He said of his own son, Henry, there wasn’t much to love. He seemed ruthless. The thing is–we all must take responsibility for the thoughts we allow in our heads, and so must Cora. She didn’t have to agree with the guy who humiliated her so much and treated her like dirt. If anything, I’d think that would be a reason not to trust that guy’s reasoning on anything. Xavier didn’t suggest he’d hunt her down either. Even if he had–Rumpel was THE DARK ONE. Who the heck was going to find them? She was safe as houses if she stayed with him–but she wouldn’t have been admired and revered by all those who had looked down on her. THAT is what drove her, and nothing else. She wanted that power more than she wanted love.

@WickedRegal wrote:

I will repeat this, Regina is no coward, and she’s not a fool.

Thinking she can get her people to love her after she slaughters an entire village, is kind of foolish. Regina may be clever, she may be intelligent, and probably a far more capable administrator /mayor than Snowing–but she lacks people skills, so she’s a bit “emotionally unintelligent” as it were. She admits she doesn’t know how to love very well, and it shows. She’s learning though, we hope.

@WickedRegal wrote:

She knew Cora would never accept her love for Daniel, and she most definetly wasn’t scared to be Queen, she wanted to be free! And even Snow knew that nobody would ever love Regina no more, which she stated in 1×07 Heart Is A Lonely Hunter, so what else to do, run away and have nothing, or stay and be Queen! And again, Regina stared death in the face and laughed! So she is no coward!

She could have run away, and started over with Henry.Sr. He tells her this in “The thing you love most.” She kills him right after he says it too. She, like her mother, didn’t want to give up power once she had it. Yes, Regina stared death in the face–but you know what she’s too cowardly to face? Until recently, she was too cowardly to face her own responsibility for the misery in her life. She kept trying to blame others until that very last scene where she owns up and decides to sacrifice herself to save others. I give her props for that–but it is not enough to completely redeem her, since she caused the mess of the fail safe in the first place.

I have hope she’ll get redeemed–she did have a horrible mother, and a manipulative imp of a mentor. Plus people like her character, unlike some other evil characters (Tamara as I said). Regina remains quite sympathetic despite everything I have pointed out. That is what makes for a good story. Her flaws get us to care about her, because we see glimmers of the strengths she could have–her toughness, her love for her son, her wounded soul loyally reeling from the loss of true love decades ago, and want her to overcome the flaws. If you totally think she is fine, that it is the rest of the world /show that has to change–well, I’ll agree to disagree and say, Good luck with that.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[Phee]

@KFChimera wrote:

I typed a lot of this before some other posts were finished, but it took me so long I’m posting it anyway.

I’m glad you still posted that post, because I think I wanna marry it. 😉 Well said.

[kfchimera]

😆 🙂 Thanks Phee!

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[WickedRegal]

Bravo, KFC, Brava! Now, I do have a little to say, on what you and others might think, but I’m going to make this short as possible! Indeed most of us may very well be on different sides of the Once playing field, but we are all Oncers nonetheless, most refuse to see the evil they’re character is doing, not saying you persay, but others like majority of you will see, but defend them nonetheless. We have mad respect for both KFChimera and RumplesGirl, because no matter what argument we threw, they retaliated with one of their own, and vice versa.
And in all complete honesty, the Charmings really aren’t the ones carrying this show, but it’s Regina, Emma, Hook, Rumpelstilskin, and Belle many Oncers watch for. We have our own personal disregard for Snow’s character, and it’s not completely for the Daniel thing, I love Ginny G., but Snow White just seems like she’s hiding something big, maybe it’s the EvilRegal getting the best of us. David, I’ve become lenient toward only because he was truly the first Charming to really give Regina the chance she deserves while Snow and Emma was away.
Now, the rudeness I was referring to, is that yes, Regina had made it her life’s work to destroy them, not necessarily kill them, as seen in 2X20 Evil Queen, she could have ended Snow, but her love for her little girl got the best of her, and I think there is so much to be told about Leopold, because I just “think” their had to be more to this story with Regina wanting to kill him besides wanting to break off her mother’s weird tree curse. He sounded pretty sure that no other child would come after Snow during his speech to her. But back to the rudeness, after this woman just saved you from the jaws of death, I mean taking wave after wave of electricity for you, and we know that it had to be painful and torturous, that you wouldn’t even think to invite her to the celebration. Thank God, Emma asked her, and was at least nice to her, while everyone else greeted her with knives and smart remarks. True they have reason to have paranoia, but that dinner could have went way better without everyone ignoring the one woman who saved their precious Snow yet again.
We don’t know much else on Cora story, Emma, okay I can say have some sort of similarity, Cinderellie, hmm, not too much, I mean she fell in love with the prince, the one thing that could have changed this entire thing was if Cora fallen in love with Prince Henry that night they briefly danced, but can’t worry about what could have, or should have anymore. Now, it’s time to press forward on, and the reason Regina is “emotionally unintelligent” is because this woman has been hurt by everyone she has ever met, so she builds up walls around her heart to not get hurt, and she hides her hurt sometimes with wickedness, but like I said, it’s going to take true love to drive away all that hurt and pain.
And well put RumpleGirl, we applaud you on the last note of that our love of one particular character always skews our arguments, but might I also add it will skew our judgment. Dearies can go on with the excuse of Rumple manipulating and destroying countless lives just to get back to the son he ran off, just as us EvilRegals can use the excuse of Regina murdering, and destroying countless lives just to get vengeance on a little naïve girl, who meant well, but actions cost Regina much. Both characters are far from perfect, but they’re not irredeemable, as both have come from a hard pasts with bad parenting, and thank God Rumple didn’t turn out to be Regina’s dad, because that would be another arguing discussion. But this has been fun. We aren’t even in season 3 yet, and we’re already having heated discussions, because more bad deeds are going to come from Regina and Rumple, while hopefully more good deeds come out of them. The common interest is Henry, but how to go about it, I feel Regina, Rumple, and Hook might team up considering their the three reforming baddies, and do it the way they know best, by whatever means necessary, while the Charmings will follow the normal code of Honor. An interesting Season 3 is ahead, so let’s stop all this arguing, and get back on the common goal of writing letters to our favorite actors, making youtube videos, merging pictures, writing fanfic, rewatching season 1 and 2, or whatever else my fellow Oncers do during summer hiatus. Now I ask you what’s the next subject at hand?

"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor

[Josephine]

One of the first things you learn in any psychology class is that the biggest predictor of future behavior is past behavior. We are creatures of habit and don’t change for the most part. We’re capable of change, but it rarely happens. So when Regina spends years trying destroy Snow and others, one good deed isn’t going to change the Charmings’ perception of her. She’s been given so many chances and she always reverts. I’m rooting for Regina, but she’s got to take responsibility for her own actions before she can seek forgiveness and redemption. When push comes to shove, she made those decisions, no one else.

Same goes with Rumple. I’m a die-hard Dearie, but the man is a broken record. He needs to stop using magic to solve his problems. He’s so scared of being a coward, but doesn’t realize all the power and magic he’s acquired is just masking the problem.

Keeper of Rumplestiltskin's and Neal's spears and war paint and crystal ball.

[kfchimera]

Thank you WickedRegal–Your perspective is interesting, even though I disagree with some things, to me that is the the value of forums like these. Out on twitter, out on tumblr, there’s just a bunch of people each stating opinions but no chance to really fully discuss why. This leads to people settling into camps, thinking there is a “war” between groups when really there is not. More on that in a moment.

@Josephine wrote:

One of the first things you learn in any psychology class is that the biggest predictor of future behavior is past behavior. .

Josephine brings up psychology, but though it has been years since I studied it, it prompted me to remember something. Social psychology also tells us, that people can do bad things in certain circumstances, but absent those circumstances, they no longer have the frame of mind to make that same choice and may even be horrified that they did. (Milgrim experiments , used as an explanation for how soldiers can do certain things in war). I think this may apply to Greg and Tamara on some level, as well as to Regina’s soldiers, perhaps also, Regina’s reactions in some situations set up by Cora and Rumpel.

Perhaps it also applies to fan groups in discussing the characters. My favorite branch of psychology, was cognitive psychology and thinking and decisions. There are a good many concepts that I hazily remember that apply to fandom, “group think” and “ad hoc groups”, hostility to those perceived as being outside even hastily formed groups–all of these come into play. We should just remember that each of us are individuals just stating (and hopefully being polite about it) our opinions, so instead of having to shut down any discussion where there are likely to be very different opinions, we can have a good discussion.

Marty just wanted to talk about this subject because it seemed interesting–not to set up a war between the fans of one character than the other. I think we all just responded with our thoughts, none of us truly speaking on behalf of any fan group, for the purpose of antagonizing another fan group. I really love hearing the different sides of things on these forums. I already know what I think. I come here to see what everyone else thinks, and yes, to express what I think. Some people really do not like any disagreement–but not all disagreement needs to be unpleasant or put down to the work of trolling to create animosity. The only thing is, there was a similar thread, but I know some people don’t like the longer threads, and they also do get lost time to time, so yes, we will repeat our discussions sometimes. Sometimes, too, there are new things to add as new episodes go by and new elements of the story are revealed–so some things will come up even if it seem “settled” by some fans. There’s always new people who want to express and discuss too, and may have missed a previous conversation.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[Marty McFly]

They both redeemed themselves completely in the end. Regina was going to die, not for Henry, but for all her enemies to be with him. She also trusted that Emma wouldn’t lie to anyone about it.
Rumpel was knowingly giving into the prophacy and allowi.g Henry to be his undoing.
In fact, in this last ep Regina did a tougher redeeming

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