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Everyone knock it off with the ad hominem attacks– no snarky or back handed remarks about the person. I don’t care what side of this divide you’re on; that’s not how this place rolls.
Also, at some point everyone is going to have to agree that this is going nowhere. And it never will. While I, broadly speaking, agree that debate for the sake of an exchange of ideas is a good idea and what this forum has always been about, that’s not what this is. You’re not debating facts or making any sort of headway. This is emotional truth arguing and the only thing that happens in emotional truth arguing is that people get more and more entrenched in their own ideas and what they “know” to be true. You’re never going to sway someone to the other side; your case is never going to be heard, your viewpoint never understood and the longer this goes on the more likely it becomes that tempers are really going to flair and we’ll have an all out ship war.
This always happens when there’s a long lull because people are in the habit of coming here everyday and right now there’s nothing going on with filming or spoilers in general so these types of arguments tend to break out. But, seriously, it’s the height of the holiday season—take a break.
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[adrotate group="5"]"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Hook and CS are widely loved in the GA
Because a good portion of the people still watching this show are 1) only here for Hook and captain swan and more than likely nothing else 2) are too invested with other characters to leave (like myself) after having spent so much time on the show or 3) are just casual watchers who just genuinely don’t care. The people who wanted to stop watching have stopped watching. And it was a lot of people.
Girl he was killed 3-4 times in one season and came back. He’s never gonna die.
Okay…? How does that make him a well written character? How does that give him plot?
So…..for the 100th time, Michael, you are okay with Hook just being Emma’s boyfriend and nothing more to the story? You keep seeming to overstep this question. Are you afraid to answer? I am really trying to level here and understand but that seems to be about all you’ve got to say or defend with.
Hook is popular. Okay. Lots of characters are on this to lots of different fans. No issue here.
Hook is Emma’s boyfriend. Okay. So was Graham. So was Neal. Heck, so was Walsh. She’s with him and can stay with him all the writers like. Congrads.
Now what else? Because you said Hook was more than a ship yet this is the only side of the argument you are bringing out and quite frankly its getting a bit tiring because I genuinely do want to have this discussion, but it keeps going back to a ship war with you.
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICWhile I, broadly speaking, agree that debate for the sake of an exchange of ideas is a good idea and what this forum has always been about, that’s not what this is
You are right.
Look guys, I’m just trying to see what everyone else wants to see from Hook in order to be happy with his character or at least to be interested in something he’s doing for the coming seasons….
If you love Hook and ship CS, that’s fine. Nothing wrong with that, but outside of that, what else do you want for HOOK specifically? I am just curious, @Michael.
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC1. So we’re just ignoring that he says “it will be because you want me”? He’s not forcing her, he’s not taking away her agency. He’s making his intentions clear but like with everything that has happened in the CS relationship it’s at Emma’s pace. Emma makes all the decisions and Hook is fine with that.
Despite Emma rejecting both Hook and Neal in Neverland, Hook is still telling her that she’ll end up with him and its only a matter of time.
2. I’m not going to entertain it because it’s your headcanon and not based on actual canon of the show. Hook screwed up because he wanted to be able to hold Emma with two hands on their date and so he bit off more then he could chew. Meanwhile Rumple was being Rumple.
Hook tried blackmailing Rumple for personal gain (his hand) and it backfired on him spectacularly. That was actual canon of the show. Hook basically said to Rumple unless you give me what I want, I’ll tell Belle you have the real dagger. That is blackmail. Hook had already pulled that card once on Rumple, this was his second time of doing it.
3. How do I explain the sudden change with Hook? The fact that Zelena gave him back the memories of what happened to him. They were all mindwiped but she waved the Dreamcatcher in his face and he was able to regain everything that happened. That’s why the change was so sudden, and that’s when the Darkness took over again. Because of Zelena giving him back his memories. I will never excuse DO Rumple for the crap he’s done especially ever since he made Hook’s sacrifice in vain and became the DO once again. In the beginning I did, but not anymore. It’s not a double standard either, he just loves power more than everything else and people just have to accept that about him.
The writers have character assassinated Rumple because they need someone to be their substitute villain for when the seasonal villains are defeated. The excuse about Hook being memoryless doesn’t fly since he still should’ve been able to see Nimue because he was still a dark one. He might not know why he was seeing her, but he still should’ve been able to see her. If a memory wipe can stop a dark one being a dark one then why doesn’t someone just do a memory wipe on Rumple? The writers completely botched the DO mythology.
4. Well they are the creators of the show, and from the show that just gave us the disgusting Rumple and EQ pairing it would not surprise me.
So you’re saying you would accept that Sneezy and Granny were true loves, despite not being shown anything to hint to that, all because A&E say they are?
5. Yeah after she asked Charming if he wasn’t pushing her towards Neal because he wanted to keep her away from Hook.
Cause that’s what she said. If that wasn’t enough the following episode Going Home made things pretty clear that it was CS. They got the meaningful goodbye.Charming let Emma make her own decision. She chose to go meet Neal until the shadow attacking the blue fairy side tracked her.
6. No it was not, it was Hook’s. (x)
If you look at the background you can clearly see Hook’s grave. That’s where Hook popped out from then he walked a couple of feet where Emma ran to him. Killian and Robin were buried less then 50 feet apart but that doesn’t mean they were at Robin’s grave. They were not.
Hook’s grave looks like this.
You can’t see Hooks grave in the background in the pic you posted. However, Emma is wearing the same clothes so his grave is somewhere but it’s certainly not where Hook appeared. And they are at Robin’s grave because his coffin is right there when Hook appears.
7. I am saying this is what the show said, this is what the writers said, this is what the actors said, and if people choose to accept it or not is not my problem. It’s canon, it happened, they’re true love, it’s done.
Again you’re ignoring the fact that we’re being TOLD it’s true love outside of the show rather than being SHOWN it is inside of the show. By that logic Emma and Neal were true loves because Belle said the swan pendant were born of true love.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of Felix1. So…you point blank admit you’re ignoring the shows canon and just coming up with headcanons and then try to defend those headcanons as fact? ….Alright. You do you, but…you have headcanons whereas I have what is stated specifically on the show. Also Jane Espenson stated when Going Home aired that the reason that kiss did not work was because Emma had her memory wiped. And TLK will never work with a memory wipe. And what drained her magic was Emma giving Hook CPR after Zelena whom cursed his lips tried to drown him. I’m sure you would have loved for Emma to let Hook drown but that is not what was gonna happen
No, I’m not ignoring the show. I’m looking at the events that took place, and I’m analyzing them; it’s just different from how you analyze them. Other fans choose to dig below the surface because there might just be more going on than meets the eye. You claim to already know the outcome of the entire show, whereas I don’t, so the burden of proof is more on you than anyone else. The fact remains that Emma and Hook haven’t shared TLK. Many CS fans try and convince themselves and others that Hook and Emma share true love, despite the evidence to the contrary (many failed TLKs). However, the thing that would most convince other fans that CS does indeed have true love is the very thing CS keeps not getting: TLK.
I look below the surface. You can call it “head-canon” if you want, but I call it reading between the lines. For example, there were the middlemist pink flowers in the field were CS shared another failed TLK, and those were the same kind of pink flowers that Arthur gave Gwen (not a great sign). It’s a way the writers can show that CS and Arthur/Gwen are similar kinds of unhealthy romantic pairings. While there might a standard way that CS fans have to explain it away, it’s a symbol that’s really hard to ignore. Also, if we’re going strictly by canon, Emma told Merlin in Nimue that not seeing Rumple in her head was probably a bad sign.
Emma: When I was seeing Rumplestiltskin in my head, he said he would only be with me until I embraced my dark powers. So recently, I’ve been thinking maybe not seeing him, maybe that’s a bad thing.
Interesting, seeing how it was Hook taking Emma to the field of pink flowers that quieted the voice inside of Emma’s head. Could it be that the closer Emma and Hook got, the closer Emma got to embracing her dark one powers? I’m thinking that is a resounding yes, seeing how Merlin also warned Emma that she would stain her very soul if she chose to embrace the darkness. Merlin warned it was the darkest path that she could take.
Merlin: I see two paths for our journey, Emma. On one, you resist the darkness and we succeed. On the other, you succumb to the darkness and I do not return. I die….If I die, it means that you lost your battle and the darkness stained your soul. Everything and everyone that you know will be at the mercy of the most powerful dark one ever… Yourself. No pressure.
Emma darkened her very soul when she saved Hook with Excalibur. To Hook’s credit, he resisted and wanted Emma to go on and have a future without him. Instead, she gave into the darkness to save him. She was ready to use the Promethean flame to rid the world of the darkness forever when Hook started bleeding. Emma showed how love can be a weapon by choosing to tether Hook to an actual sword. That is some very obvious symbolism, and there probably couldn’t be a more telling way to show Hook and Emma’s love is like a weapon with the ability to break their hearts. I call it choosing to read all of the revealed symbols and not just take someone’s word for it.
2. Probably because if she shared her heart with him at the beginning of the season then we wouldn’t have had a S5B. They had to go to the Underworld for a reason. The writers also absolutely show that CS is very much like Snowing. Hence why Emma says the Snowing catch phrase “Hook I will find you, I will always find you”. That was a straight up confirmation that CS=Snowing.
Emma said her father’s line when she was going to the UW, but that does not mean CS is the exact same as Snowing. My take on it is that Emma desperately wanted to believe her relationship with Hook is the same kind as her parents’ marriage, but there’s nothing to back it up. Unlike Snowing, who’ve shared TLK dozens of times, CS doesn’t have anything to show for it. If anything, CS has multiple failed attempts at TLK . It’s only natural that Emma would desire to have the same kind true love as her parents, but that doesn’t mean she’s found it yet with Hook. Again, it’s a matter of interpretation.
3. Clearly since you basically stated you ignore canon and think your head-canons are somehow more canon than what actually happens on the show and what comes out of the creators and actors mouth that know way more about the character than you do.
Please don’t put words in my mouth. I never said I ignore canon nor that my way of seeing things is “more canon” (those were your words). Everything I wrote is based on my interpretation of canon events. CS fans love to try and dictate what is the correct interpretation of canon and what isn’t and look for the writers and actors to back them up. Well, what is canon is that CS has never shared TLK. CS fans will do verbal acrobats to try and convince themselves and others of why their favorite couple still hasn’t shared TLK, but they haven’t. The writers have had ample chances to convince fans like me that CS share TL. They shouldn’t have to tell fans like me it’s the case; they ought to show me and give me clear reasons.
Of course, the showrunners will tell CS fans what they hear because Hook and Emma are are couple in the show, and they want you to buy their product. ABC’s advertising department promotes CS as an “epic” love story because it keeps CS fans watching. But is all the while, the writers might just be showing a different kind of story, at least to viewers who have the eyes to see it. Fans of CS don’t want to see it that way, and probably nothing will convince them of any other possible conclusion than CS is great. They can praise Hook’s deeds and call his relationship with Emma amazing and romantic, but it won’t change the way many other fans see it: unhealthy and selfish.
It’s like @RumplesGirl wrote: it comes back to emotional truths. You want to prove to everyone that CS is the greatest thing ever, but most people have already made up their minds over the past five seasons about Hook and his relationship with Emma, the same way they have formed opinions about Henry, Regina, Snowing, Rumple and the rest of the characters. At the end of the day, you have your set of beliefs about Hook and other people have theirs, and probably nothing anyone writes will sway anyone else.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Fourthly, the fact that you claim Neal dying is the only reason people don’t like CS because they’re “bitter” implies that the thought of SF still bothers you. SF was probably the biggest hurdle to CS and, despite two and a half seasons passing since then, you don’t seem to accept that people can dislike CS for other reasons beside Neal. Ironically killing off Neal was the worst thing to happen to CS because Emma never chose Hook over Neal. Neal was taken out of the equation, leaving Hook as the only option left. It does beg the question as to WHY Neal was killed off instead of having Emma and Neal move on from each other.
Man, this has certainly spiraled a bit. I will choose to comment on the one thing above. You cannot say SF fans are not bitter but then finish your thought with the last sentence implying that the CS relationship does not have what the SF relationship had, and that Hook was simply the only other option for Emma once Neal died. And then implying that the writers killed Neal off only so that Hook would be the only other option. That seems pretty damn BITTER to me. And I’m sorry, but I’ve seen the SF thread on here. I’ve been kindly asked to leave it a few times. You guys are very bitter and it shows in your explanation of things regarding Hook and specifically Hook and Emma’s relationship. It’s so painfully obvious and yet you guys don’t see it. You can disagree all you want, and perhaps CS fans are bias with there own stuff too when they try and justify the relationship, but as someone who really liked SF, and someone who enjoys CS as well, I see way more bias and ridiculous things coming from you guys.
Man, this has certainly spiraled a bit. I will choose to comment on the one thing above. You cannot say SF fans are not bitter but then finish your thought with the last sentence implying that the CS relationship does not have what the SF relationship had, and that Hook was simply the only other option for Emma once Neal died. And then implying that the writers killed Neal off only so that Hook would be the only other option. That seems pretty damn BITTER to me. And I’m sorry, but I’ve seen the SF thread on here. I’ve been kindly asked to leave it a few times. You guys are very bitter and it shows in your explanation of things regarding Hook and specifically Hook and Emma’s relationship. It’s so painfully obvious and yet you guys don’t see it. You can disagree all you want, and perhaps CS fans are bias with there own stuff too when they try and justify the relationship, but as someone who really liked SF, and someone who enjoys CS as well, I see way more bias and ridiculous things coming from you guys.
I think my annoyance comes from the fact you had Hook say to Emma in Neverland “You have to choose” (which led to the line “I choose Henry”) between Hook and Neal, then in 3B the writers took away Emma’s choice by killing Neal off. I’m not saying Emma and Neal should’ve got back together, I’d even say it would’ve been a much more ballsy move to have them not together but co-parenting Henry in a united way. (When I say “united way” I don’t mean together, I mean both share the same views and are a united front instead of trying to one up the other). I wasn’t an SF fan so that’s not the reason for my annoyance with CS, I just think they could’ve done more with Neal instead of killing him off and had CS come together in a way that doesn’t seem like Hook is constantly pestering Emma to return his affections. The early days of CS before they actually got together could be summed up like this:
Hook: Will you go out with me?
Emma: No.
Hook: Will you go out with me?
Emma: No.
Hook: Will you go out with me?
Emma: No.
Hook: How about now?
Emma: No.
Hook: Now?
Emma: No.
Hook: What about now?
Emma: Fine. Just quit asking.
Hook: Yay!
I actually don’t mind Hook in 6A. He’s showing behaviour that actually shows he’s changed such as genuinely apologising to Belle and trying to help her. In that scene he was much more likeable than Emma. If I had to rank the regulars from favourite to least favourite, in 6A Hook has gone from the bottom of the board/near the bottom of the board to at least midway up the board if not slightly higher. I used to absolutely despise Hook and now, in 6A, I actually kind of like him.
I just think the set up to CS was sloppy and lazy (though not as bas as OQ) and could’ve been written, not only differently, but better. That is my complaint on CS. We needed to see 6A Hook several seasons ago.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixI really wanted to stay out of this thread, but after so long rolling eyes and laughing at some of the things said here, i have to come and say something.
I have to say i dont even know why this thread returned again, @RumplesGirl and @Slurpeez already said it, is too late to change any fans opinions about characters, people will not be sudden saying to each other, “you are right about this character and i was wrong”.
I have to admit that at 1st i had a longer post, especially to @thedarkonedearie, but then I thought what is the point in that, no matter what i say to him, he will still call me and all of you bias and ridiculous, so i decided to take the higher ground and simply say nothing.
Finally, the show will end soon, if not this season, most likely next year, also, is Christmas, next week we will be in 2017, i have to make the same question again, why are you all still losing time with this? Go buy gifts, go eat some christmas food, go outside and have fun with your friends, go read a book, go spend some time with your family, etc. You are still alive so go enjoy that, instead of arguing( yeah, bc at this point is not even about giving your opinion, is more say to each other im right and you are wrong) with people that will never agree with any of you about a fictional Tv show, is not even about real life issues, you are getting all crazy over a tv show, now using Elsa words “Let it go”, Im sure @RG and @MP would appreciate that, in order for them to have some peaceful holidays regarding the forum, since this holidays season is already stressful enough, without a bunch of people arguing the same thing that has been argued in the past 5 seasons, without getting any result.
"I offended you with my opinion? Ha, you should hear the ones I keep to myself".
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