Why is Hook such a divisive character within the fandom?

[RumplesGirl]

Re chart: I do agree that the chart doesn’t help the situation. But it sadly does exist out there in the wilds.  And just to clarify, it wasn’t created by anyone here at the site.

But it does help to illustrate some frustration. If you’re a Belle fan you might feel like you’re getting cheated out of a story when the time is so vastly skewed. Even if it wasn’t charted, it’s obviously noticeable on screen each week.

[darkones1fan]

My personal feelings on Hook…I like him…but I will say I like him more now then I did in season 2. Season 2 Hook was well, I wasn’t that invested, I could see some charm but he was still a Villain, but now I like Hook a lot more now as a good guy, although again after the Apprentice it ain’t looking good but I feel he won’t enjoy his work. But again I’m not much of a shipper and I’ve stayed out of that war for OBVIOUS reasons. So, yeah I look Hook, especially ever since Season 3.

[TheWatcher]

So I came to add my two cents but everything I would have ssaid has been said sooo I’ll ask this instead:

Is Hook a divisive character because of his character (actions, motivations, character development, etc) or because of his relationship to Emma?

I mean, would hook mean as much if he were the same person he is now, doing the same things he is now, but he was in a relationship with Tinkerbell, red, or regina, or archie? Would we be so critical of him (or be hooked on him for some…. 😛 yes,  I said it)?

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[darkones1fan]

So I came to add my two cents but everything I would have ssaid has been said sooo I’ll ask this instead: Is Hook a divisive character because of his character (actions, motivations, character development, etc) or because of his relationship to Emma? I mean, would hook mean as much if he were the same person he is now, doing the same things he is now, but he was in a relationship with Tinkerbell, red, or regina, or archie? Would we be so critical of him (or be hooked on him for some…. yes, I said it)?

 

I’m sure that plays a factor in some people’s cases. I can’t speak for anyone, but I’m sure for some people it does

[Keb]

I often feel like the rare person who likes both Hook and Neal. I suspect there IS a strong correlation between Neal fans and Dearies–if one loves Rumple, it’s hard not to have affection for the people he loves (how many Dearies aren’t also Rumbellers? Seriously?)

But I’ve always found Hook to be a fun villain. He is handsome, played by a talented (and utterly adorably geeky) actor, and tends to bring out interesting (if sometimes frustrating) sides of Rumple. He’s also got excellent brochemistry with David that’s just fun to watch. The way he switches sides makes him less predictable (unless he’s being a puppy for Emma) and so I generally enjoy having him on the show.

But I also love Neal, and still hold out hope that he’ll return somehow. Neal’s death felt like the end of Rumple’s possibility of a happy ending as well as Henry’s–and it really did feel like the only in-show purpose was to force Emma to choose Hook when she would have chosen Neal given enough time. (One reason I hate the current OQ plot is that the most likely resolution seems to be kill off Marian so Robin doesn’t have to choose anymore. Ew.) It takes away from Emma’s choice if, you know, one of her choices is dead. (And he was her true love at least once. Belle said as much.)

Beyond that, Nealfire’s story was one of the most tragic in the series–a good man who was willing to sacrifice everything, multiple times, for the people he loved, and he couldn’t find a happy ending? That hurt a lot–which is why I’m still clinging to a thread of hope that his story isn’t really finished.

I think there’s likely a split between Rumbellers and CSers (I’ve seen something like that on Tumblr here and there), partly because Hook and Rumple are set up as enemies from the start and both have seriously harmed the other in, let’s face it, cruel and violent ways. For those who like Hook and dislike Rumple, killing Milah was probably unforgiveable; for those who like Rumple and dislike Hook, shooting Belle–okay, that was pretty bad.

So for someone who likes both characters, that’s a lot to resolve (and I find both those moments difficult and cringeworthy to watch). Bad Hook. You tell Belle you’re sorry. Again. Now. (And maybe if it’s Hook talking to her, they’d let her be on the show? Oh, that’s another reason that Rumbelle fans might not be CS fans–Hook’s screentime vs Belle’s when they joined regular cast about the same time and are both beautiful, fascinating characters so what gives?) Ahem.

The love triangle was a big deal but I think it maybe comes down to what other characters you really like in the show and whom you identify with. I identify most with Rumple and Belle (no question) so maybe picking Neal or Hook over the other isn’t as important to me as it is to others…though I definitely like Hook better when he’s not kissing Emma. (Constantly. Get a room, guys.)

I do think that there is a lot of discussion in the fandom of various character’s relative badness–Regina, Rumple, and Hook often get compared. I don’t quite get how Neal gets compared to any of them (save for some fairly set up parallels between him and Rumple and him and Hook during the stupid triangle), but if they were normal people in our world just about everyone in Henry’s family would be in jail. Like, still in jail. (Almost all of them have been at some point, as it happens–I have a spreadsheet on it.) Everyone but Belle & Neal has killed someone, including Emma if Mal’s actually dead, half of them were professional thieves at some point in their lives, and Emma and David seem to think that being co-sheriff means they are exempt from even Storybrooke’s laws.

Mind you, they’ve also fought ghosts and trolls and dragons…so…

But I think Hook is divisive because he’s set up to be rival to a third of Henry’s family, in love with another third, and used by the last third. Hate and love are both really strong feelings, and no matter what other characters you like…well, they’ve had reasons to love or hate Hook (or both). So it’s really easy to have polarized feelings about him.

Even within one fan like me (loving Hook, disliking CS).

 

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[obisgirl]

I struggled with writing my initial post and re-wrote it like three times before posting what I did and this thread ends up on three pages in less than 24 hours. I’m impressed.

I’ll address a few posts first:

It’s hard to write for a ensemble cast to give them all equal screen time, it all comes down to storyline.

I’ve been saying this forever.

I don’t think Adam and Eddy and the other writers look at charts and say, ‘Hey, X character hasn’t really had a lot of screen time this season, so let’s base our story for next season around this character.’ They write where the story takes them and that’s the way it should be. It goes back to that interview A&E gave awhile back that you can’t write a TV show like Once based on polling. It just doesn’t work that way.

No offense to the chart, but I’ve seen them before, and I think stuff like that fuels the animosity toward characters.

I 100% agree with this.

I think this is a very good discussion to have (as long as it stays polite and friendly and doesn’t disintegrate into something nasty).

[RumplesGirl]

I don’t think Adam and Eddy and the other writers look at charts and say, ‘Hey, X character hasn’t really had a lot of screen time this season, so let’s base our story for next season around this character.’ They write where the story takes them and that’s the way it should be. It goes back to that interview A&E gave awhile back that you can’t write a TV show like Once based on polling. It just doesn’t work that way.

I agree that’s not how A and E write but it’s natural for people to want to see their favorite character. And when your favorite is maybe only on screen for 3 second each episode and not uttering any lines…it can get disheartening and frustrating.

I can’t say this enough. It’s very easy to feel that the chart and the screen time isn’t an issues when you’re seeing your favorites. And this has nothing to do with Hook or CS. I loved so much of S2 because I got a lot of Rumple-y goodness.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Phee]

My point in the above paragraph (I may have rambled a bit) was that I disliked Hook when he was attacking or threatening my favourite characters but liked him or didn’t mind him so much when he wasn’t. How much does Hook’s actions towards certain characters affect how the fandom feels about him?

Rumple’s been my fave since the moment I saw him…and I really enjoyed Hook in “The Crocodile”. I happily called myself a Hooker when he first joined the show. He was doing some horrible things, he was being an *expletive* to characters I loved, but I thought he was an interesting, vivacious new character who shook things up a bit and I was looking forward to seeing more of him. Then…

Once Hook abandoned his seek for revenge at the end of Season 2,

…the moment Hook started going to waste IMO. His exchange with Rumple about how they were dropping the grudge against each other, I remember feeling terribly disappointed with how simple that was for both of them, I may or may not have even rolled my eyes. It felt like they were tossing aside the story they’d established, and so soon after the fabulous flashbacks of Hook and Bae on that very ship too. They’d set up such an emotionally layered past where Rumple/Bae/Hook was concerned and then they did nothing with it.

I enjoyed seeing Hook’s antagonism with Rumple being brought up again in 404. I loved that they had Hook try and stab Rumple with his hook exactly like back in the day, and I love seeing them trade insults and threaten each other. Thank you writers for remembering that these two have a lot of angry baggage between them and it hasn’t just evaporated. (If only this is how they’d handled their interaction BEFORE this though, because where it’s placed in the story now makes me want to veer off on a whole different rant about what they’re doing with Rumple at this point in his (de)evolution.)

One of the big wasted opportunities was Hook and Neal sorting their crap out, because just like Hook and Rumple have angry baggage, so did Hook and Neal. The flashbacks to Hook and Bae on the ship were wonderful, heartbreaking, but wonderful, and Hook toasting to his memory at the very start of S3 was heartbreaking and wonderful…then they did NOTHING with it when Hook and Neal were face to face again. Props to Neal for not holding a grudge, but seriously, there should have been issues, and apologies, and two men coming to terms with their past and seeing if they could be friends now and make up for all the hurt, and how that could have influenced Neal’s growing relationship with Rumple if he also had a growing relationship with Hook. Just, so much wasted character growth potential for all three of them.

Another big wasted opportunity was Hook in Neverland. Captain Hook. In Neverland. And he only spoke to Peter Pan, like, twice? It honestly kind of astounds me that they didn’t explore their past because Hook and Pan is like a major thing but it felt like they couldn’t be bothered with it. Why even take their Hook to NL if they weren’t gonna tell us their version of the Hook/Pan story? I wanted to see Hook’s history in NL, dammit!

So basically, I feel like the potential for the character has gone more and more to waste, and as that’s happened, the negative things he’s done in the past have annoyed me more because it feels like the writers just want us to forget all those things that make him layered and dangerous and interesting, and it pisses me off that they seemed to have rug swept it all and I’ve become more adamant that no, those things DID happen, so can we actually have them acknowledged please. It just frustrates me to no end how they always have him THERE but don’t use him to his actual potential. I just don’t care about him any more, as a result of feeling like the writers don’t really care about who he is and things he’s done and experiences he’s had, so there’s no characterisation for me to invest in, yet the character is still shoehorned into so many scenes. His presence now irritates me more often than not, which is a bummer because like I said at the top, I really used to enjoy him.

Honestly, I feel like Colin does his best work when he’s given darker, morally dubious material to work with. That’s when he seems to be revelling in playing the character IMO, so I wish they’d give him more of that. That’s not to say that the character should be a baddie for forever, but addressing his dark side, (which thankfully they seem to be doing again a bit after having largely ignored it for for a whole season), would allow for some actual internal struggle for him and make a proper character growth arc possible and likely make him interesting to me again.

[MatthewPaul]

Honestly, I feel like Colin does his best work when he’s given darker, morally dubious material to work with. That’s when he seems to be revelling in playing the character IMO, so I wish they’d give him more of that. That’s not to say that the character should be a baddie for forever, but addressing his dark side, (which thankfully they seem to be doing again a bit after having largely ignored it for for a whole season), would allow for some actual internal struggle for him and make a proper character growth arc possible and likely make him interesting to me again.

You make for some interesting points. I do actually like that the feud between Rumple and Hook is back on track. They’re not trying to kill each other, but old habits die hard, so they are still trying to get the upper-hand over one another. Personally I think Hook’s current arc this Season will be to explore his inner struggle, while paying the price of his mistakes along the way. Hook does genuinely want to become a better person and he is slowly learning, but of course he has a ways to go.

What I commonly hear from Hook detractors is that while Rumple and Regina have committed so many sins (more so than Hook, and on a larger scale), they can sympathize with them more because they feel that they have faced the consequences for their actions more so than Hook. That’s not to say Rumple and Regina haven’t had actions rug swept, either. I mean I still find it hard to swallow that Belle brushed aside the revelation that Rumple killed his own wife so easily, nor did Belle give Rumple crap about abusing people with his inner darkness when she was being Lacey once she got her memories back.

I guess I should ask this thread what they would like to see of Hook in the future to genuinely buy any redemption arc, if it is even possible? Phee suggested a few vague ideas, but I’m intrigued to see others elaborate. To not start a riot, please don’t simply suggest “Hook can only redeem himself by giving up his life” as an option. I’ve seen it suggested countless of times when the death spoiler of doom was upon us last Winter, and I would rather we don’t revisit that as to not push any buttons. This is something to seriously ponder. Can Hook be redeemed and how far would it take?

[RumplesGirl]

I guess I should ask this thread what they would like to see of Hook in the future to genuinely buy any redemption arc, if it is even possible?

First my answer actually speaks to every single villain on the show but since we’re talking about Hook…I need an acknowledgement that he did do bad things. Even if pro-Hook fans can rationalize them, it doesn’t change the fact that he did do them. So, it would be nice for him to say sorry for leaving Team Princess! in jail. And yes actions speak louder than words and he cam back for them in 222, but I can’t criticize Regina for not apologizing and not expect the same from Hook even if their deeds might be of a smaller/larger degree.

The question in and of itself is also divisive because people on #TeamHook (can I call them that…I hate the idea of “stans” mostly because I have no idea where it came from. What is a Stan? Why Stan? Why not Martha? Or Jim….where was I…) can easily explain the actions that others find as hindrance, just like I can explain away Rumple’s deeds. So for me one of the big things is that I’d like Emma to learn about Hook’s relationship with Bae in its full capacity. And a someone on #TeamHook is going to say that Emma knows and is fine with it. But there’s nothing in universe to suggest FOR SURE either way. And I think that’s a big problem for the fandom. We each accept our headcanons when the show leaves it up in the air.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

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