Why is Hook such a divisive character within the fandom?

[ellemo78]

First my answer actually speaks to every single villain on the show but since we’re talking about Hook…I need an acknowledgement that he did do bad things. Even if pro-Hook fans can rationalize them, it doesn’t change the fact that he did do them. So, it would be nice for him to say sorry for leaving Team Princess! in jail. And yes actions speak louder than words and he cam back for them in 222, but I can’t criticize Regina for not apologizing and not expect the same from Hook even if their deeds might be of a smaller/larger degree.

The question in and of itself is also divisive because people on #TeamHook (can I call them that…I hate the idea of “stans” mostly because I have no idea where it came from. What is a Stan? Why Stan? Why not Martha? Or Jim….where was I…) can easily explain the actions that others find as hindrance, just like I can explain away Rumple’s deeds. So for me one of the big things is that I’d like Emma to learn about Hook’s relationship with Bae in its full capacity. And a someone on #TeamHook is going to say that Emma knows and is fine with it. But there’s nothing in universe to suggest FOR SURE either way. And I think that’s a big problem for the fandom. We each accept our headcanons when the show leaves it up in the air.

@RG you’re right, I’m quite happy to rationlise Hook’s actions, just as you said you are happy to defend Rumple. And Regina fans will defend Regina to the death. We see the best in our favourites, just as Robin sees the best in Regina and Belle sees the best in Rumple and perhaps we can have tunnel vision. But I get the feeling that fans/haters aren’t allowing Emma to see the best in Hook. I get sick of the hypocrisy. What I see from fans is that Regina and Rumple are more easily forgiven for their misdeeds and Hook isn’t. But it’s the why I don’t understand. It seems that no matter how hard he tries there is nothing Hook can do that will make up for his past. Any good deed/action he does will always get construed into something bad. Is it because the writers are angling Hook to be a hero when he clearly started out as a bad guy (I’m not using the term villian, b/c he was a rubbish villian), that he has to do *everything* right to be labeled as such? He swapped from side to side, so was Hook harder to place into the black and white world of Hero and Villian? Regina and Rumple still have their darkness and are still classified as villians, Rumple especially so, and Rumple doesn’t want to be a ‘hero’ so is that why he’s more easily forgiven for all the horrible things he’s done in his past, beacuse he’s still in the villian box?

In general, if you don’t like a character, you don’t like a character, that’s fine. No-one’s expecting all characters to be everything to everyone, that’s just not how the world works. What bugs me is the fans that twist and maniupate the character’s actions to get their hate across, to posion them for others’ enjoyment. And this works both ways too. I’ve read some pro-Hook blogs that are just blatantly stretching the truth to get their point across I roll my eyes and laugh.

Re the Stan thing, I’m old so I had to look it up. The definition I found was that it was from Eminem’s ‘Stan’ or the contraction of stalker + fan. In either case if that’s where it came from I don’t want to be called a Stan. And terms like TeamHook or TeamNeal are just devisive anyway. I blame Twilight for all that rubbish (but then I blame Twilight for a lot of things 😉 )

[Myril]

First: I don’t think that Hook is the only divisive character in the fandom. Neal was perceived very different by different people (and that was not just a matter of Neal or Hook), Regina is seen in very different ways ( there are sometimes quite heated debates about her, which often come up in connection with SwanQueen discussions but are really not limited to it), people have very different takes on Rumple and on Belle, and on Henry as well. Even Snow is disputed. There was a bit of dicussion about Charming/David in season 1 but since then he probably is the most accepted character in the fandom. Doesn’t mean all like him, love him, but he seldom even causes anything like a slight wrinkle of people’s noses. But everybody else of the regular, core or lead characters split up the fandom in factions, more or less getting at each other, some less, some more. By now the different fandom factions have mostly sorted themselves out on different forums, and stay mostly in their circles, occasionally crossing swords and magic wands on Twitter and Tumblr.

Hook gets more attention at the moment because of shipping, because of Emma getting more attention, the finale episode of season 3, which put CaptainSwan very much in the middle of everything, and the ongoing focus on them. But more importantly: I think Hook gets in the way of more than one happily ever after ship (and we’re talking here fandom affairs, it doens’t matter at all if it’s canon or fanon), he is THE bad guy in Storybrooke shipping town, having more than one fan faction against him.

(and I will try to walk a bit in everybodies shoes now, sort of…)

a) SwanFire: Some are still mourning, and Neal was the good guy and hero, why should Emma ever feel for anyone more than for him. He had to leave so she could find her parents, he had no choice. And he came back with her and his son despite still struggling with his father clinging to magic. Even with Neal now gone, the triangle is still in a way alive. Thanks to Neal being Henry’s father it will always be an issue. Hook flirting with Emmma, maybe one can overlook that after a while, adults. But think it would heat up badly again if Hook would bond with Henry with even the slightest touch of fatherly care. Don’t think that would be taken well by parts of the fandom. Befriending Henry a bit out of guilt and for the sake of remember Neal might be okay, but daring to take a place even remotely close to fatherly – no way. It might be tolerable (not acceptable) that Emma has some needs, needs a friend, a new shoulder to rely on, but that is it. Everything going beyond that is an offense to Emma’s first love and the father of her son.

b) SwanQueen: Dashing pirate with a questionable behavior towards woman – no way this guy could be any good, or any better ever than Regina for Emma. Regina should be the strong, independent woman she is and protect Emma, shouldn’t she. Emma can’t be seriously into such a fraud and womanizer, she just was too weak and vulnerable and Hook pushed her until he had succesfully cornered and tricked her. Regina was bad, as some say, trying to kill Emma and all her family in the past (except maybe Henry), alright, but this guy is so much worse. If Regina doesn’t get a chance, such a horrible guy should even less get one.

c) RumBelle: Hook is getting in the way of these two as well. For one Hook took away Milah, which scarred Rumple for life and made him disbelief in the power of love for a while. Tough thing for lovely Belle to overcome. Second: Hook attacked lovely Belle, more than once, and came close to kill her more than once. And as just seen in most recent episode, the feud between these two old men is still burning, and poor, lovely Belle might be the victim. Furthermore when people complain, that there is something icky about Rumple and Belle in love, power imbalance, age, evilness, then Hook and Emma are icky as well, they fought each other first, Hook looked Emma up and would have left her to whatever fate in that place.

d) Outlawqueen: what? Yes, indirectly. I find it quite interesting, that a bigger number of Swanqueen shippers them to have little problem with Outlawqueen than with CaptainHook – which, sorry, tells me, they care litte about Emma, little about diversity on the show, and all they care about is happy Regina no matter how. Regina being Emma’s strong white (or is it black?) knight would be the perfect story, but at least Robin is humble and cherishing Regina as the strong, independent woman she is, so they make a second best ending? Maybe it’s, that Hook is taking Emma seemingly away, while Robin is a step for Regina to grow, so that maybe latter she still could find her way to her true soul mate? Whatever. It is faczinating and raising questions. Hook gets a bit in the way of Robin being the good looking, sharming, sassy man on OUaT now, there are just so many alphas a family can take. Rumble – grandfather alpha, David, father alpha, so they have their places secured, but Hook and Robin are direct compitition (good thing the Knave is only a guest, and likely not of any interest for any lead). At least Emma and Hook should be a bit more decent and stay in the back, after all, Regina is the queen of the show, so don’t take away her place in the main spotlight, aka take away screentime, with some fan service for the teenager faction, let an adult show you the real look and meaning of true love.

e) Rumple fans – at least for those believing, Rumple should have a good end, be redeemed, which mostly goes along with shipping RumBelle. Hook hurt Rumple – that is enough to dislike him, isn’t it. Hook tried to kill Rumple even, though Hook was the bad guy, who has stolen Rumple’s wife and mother of his son from him. And he surrendered Rumple’s son to evil Pan. And we haven’t heard him apologize for any of it, doubtful he even regrets anything.

f) Neal fans – aside of taking away Emma. Hook killed Neal’ls mother and betrayed him in Neverland. And he endangered Neal’s son, his whole family when he helped Tamara and Greg because of his obsession with taking revenge on Rumple. Maybe Neal and Hook had sime sort of odd friendship in Neverland, but he surrendered him to Pan.

Plus a few people, who maybe really just dislike Hook anyway for being a dashing pirate, and few others, non-shippers, who think the character is mostly a joke and only eye candy for anyone with teenager mind (regardless biological age).

I haven’t seen any Duckling or fans liking Emma having that huge of a problem with Hook, even though I think not all liking Emma are shipping CaptainSwan (me for example).

Interestingly, Hook as he is portrayed on OUaT, as dashing pirate, charming, sassy, but sensitive and bound to whatever code he feels bound to, but standing outside established norms, is usually in romantic fantasy the guy to get the big price, the beautiful girl and happy ending, the bad guy with the good heart, the romantic hero. Think of pretty much any Errol Flynn character (who played besides pirates and other romantic heroes one of the iconic Robin Hood versions). Normally that is the popular character in a romance, or has been. Emma and Hook are kinda the version of the romance trope of gallant but maverick thief/pirate/detective gets the princess.

Boiling it down from the point of a person being not much of a shipper of any popular pairing (aside from whishing for more diversity, and shipping general the idea of at least one queer couple on the show, but not SQ, most of you I think know my position on that): Hook is such a controverse, divisive character because of shipping wars. Disliking him is common ground where different factions of the fandom can come together, the culprit some can agree on, even if otherwise they have still a lot of different, and maybe sometimes opposing views on other things. The common foe.

I think there a some different views on why viewer numbers decreased in season 2. Overall quality of the writing, the loss of the new sensation factor, the curse been broken so early, and while some blame Hook, other people blame the mess they made of Regina with Cora in second half, other see the whole Tamara – Greg story has big mess up, or the show getting probably more and more confusing for casual viewers. Not one of the many views as profound research, numbers, analysis to prove their point. It’s a matter of what one wants to belief in and thus find more plausible.

Concering these screentime charts. They might show tendency, maybe, but they hardly can be judged as objective or accurate. I can only guess with screentime is meant every moment shown on screen (though for perception of importance as much talking about even if not on screen can be a factor as well). I am sure those who took these screentime are trying to be accurate, but one person alone hardly will be able to be accurate with such a task. To do it accurate you would have to focus on one character each, and I would suggest watch each episode at least twice if not better thrice to get every minute of screen appearance, front, center, supporting, silent background. If taken more seriously probably should keep record of how much time this was in interaction, speaking, maybe solo, or much only as bystander. It’s not as easy as we think to measure exact time for activity, even if it’s recorded, so one can rewatch it multiple times, clocking. I’ve done some study on time use and time perception studies and their methodes, so have a bit of an idea about it. .

If you have to trust just your memory – forget it. We are rather bad most of the times to tell length of an activity, some factors influence our perception, and then even more, our memory. When we think, a character is important but neclegted, we will likely remember seeing that character less than character we think have taken undeservedly space and time in the narrative, regardless what actual measurement might tell.

Personal bias is something that is quite an issue in research in social science, it is unavoidable, so one has to be very clear in their analysis, where they are coming from, which position you had before starting to dig into things, note anything that might influence your view and handle of research while researching, even seemingly unimportant things (seriously, something as a rainy day could make a difference in how people answer questions you ask them, or how you perceive their anwers).

And as noted by others: amount of screentime says not everything about importance in the story line or on the show, not even at a given moment.

But to amuse us more, nevertheless the tip, that there are more charts on that Tumblr, about season 1 and 2 as well, as there is another overview of season1 and 2 on a another Tumblr

The question in and of itself is also divisive because people on #TeamHook (can I call them that…I hate the idea of “stans” mostly because I have no idea where it came from. What is a Stan? Why Stan? Why not Martha? Or Jim….where was I…)

Stan: an overly (dangerously) obsessed fan of a celebrity, be it musician, athlete, actor. Is described as a blend (portmanteau) of stalker and fan. First used for fans of musicians but is spreading to all kind of celebrities, and eventually as well might spread in use to label the most obsessive fans of a character. Said to be based on the song “Stan” by Eminem (recorded 1999, originally with Dido. Song tells the story of a fictional person named Stanley “Stan” Mitchell, who claima to be the biggest fan of Eminem, doing some really crazy stuff)

(I put the explanation in the glossary as well)

¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯

[Phee]

What I see from fans is that Regina and Rumple are more easily forgiven for their misdeeds and Hook isn’t. But it’s the why I don’t understand. It seems that no matter how hard he tries there is nothing Hook can do that will make up for his past.

Hook doesn’t own and acknowledge that his dark side can be bad.

Rumple knows he’s messed up, he’s called himself a monster, he’s said he’s not worthy of love. Though he keeps succumbing to his (massive) flaws, at least he knows he has them.

I take issue with Regina because she said she doesn’t regret anything she’s done. Like Rumple, she can justify whatever she does, but unlike Rumple, she can’t see that what she’s done is wrong from someone else’s perspective, she just thinks everyone else is wrong. But at least she does realise that people see her as being bad, (even if she’s currently going about the wrong way of trying to fix that by trying to change the Book). And at least she did give Emma and Henry the gift of happy togetherness memories, which showed some self realisation because that was like admitting that she’d helped screw them up in the first place so she wanted to try and fix it.

Hook just thinks that whatever he’s done (or does do) is totes fine and he has nothing to repent for as long as he pops an eyebrow and says something witty. And the thing is, knowing his origin, that he used to be an honourable man, he SHOULD be able to reflect on stuff he does now and have a reference to realise, “Wait up, that’s a crap way for me to behave.” But he doesn’t. Honourable!Sailor!Killian would be disgusted at how Hook abused Belle, an innocent woman, multiple times. But the “apology” we got was really just a question, “Sorry?” If they wanted me to buy that he was really changed, something genuine like, “I apologise, you never did anything against me and I shouldn’t have almost killed you more than once when my beef wasn’t even with you,” (throw in some downcast eyes for good measure) would have been much more believable.

Given where he came from, and that he SHOULD have that frame of reference of what “good form” is, I don’t think he’s beyond redemption, but who he was in that flashback ep hasn’t been reflected in anything we’ve seen since. I’d love to see him struggle with it. When you’ve been a certain way for a couple of centuries I’m sure it’s a really hard habit to break, (I’ve had bad habits for far less time that I can’t break), but we just don’t see him struggle with it and realise that sometimes, in present day, he’s acting less than honourably, (we did see it when he remembered his time with Bae telling him he’ll never change, and then turning the ship around, but we’ve had a whole season since then and no other instances of reflection and change of heart…eventually telling Charming about the Dreamshade cure is an arguable inclusion, but he seemed to have an ulterior motive with that, it wasn’t out of pure goodness of his heart IMO). I’m just not gonna buy that he’s redeemed unless and until we see some of that self realisation which can cause present day change.

[sharon]

Sorry if someone has already touched on this – but there was an article floating around out there how they were annoyed that the male villains on the show have easily been redeemed whereas the female villains (i.e., Regina) seem to have to work for it more. It could be one reason why Hook is divisive?

I like the actor a lot…my issue with the character is that his storyline seems to have been fan driven versus story driven. If you re-watch Season 2 – it just really felt like they were setting the story up for Neal to be reunited with Emma. I won’t lie though, that was my personal preference…to see Henry’s parents reunited. Somehow – I still think that should be the end game. It sort of wraps up all the pieces nicely.

[Jenna_B]

I’m sorry, I had to jump over a decent portion of recent posts, simply because I saw they were comparing characters/ships and I just cannot….if there’s one place I don’t go, it’s comparing  the characters to the other.  So when I think of any of them and their arc, I’m not looking at who’s more redeemed or redeemable, Hook/Regina/Rumple, I look at each character’s arc and judge my thoughts on that arc alone (as much as I can, I am, admittedly, human!)

I’ll go this far in regard to a possible ‘comparison’…I would like to think more than a few people like both Hook and Neal, or Rumple and Hook.  I found myself primarily connected to the potential Neal/Hook storyline, and although I love CS, I was just as intrigued by the Hook/Neal relationship, if not moreso.  During S3, it was the story I wanted to know most about, because there was so much setup.  And there was so much potential for character development for both characters.  So I was very upset/angry when the Spoiler of Doom was announced and then came to fruition because it was throwing away a great character in Neal and a potential ‘bromance’ between Hook and Neal.  And I’ve seen many who feel that way.  I’d like to think it’s some of the more extreme fans who have to hate on Hook because they like Neal and vice versa – hating a character isn’t really a quality justification for liking another, it’s like saying you hate apples because you like oranges…

I think people also assume because you’re a fan of a character, you’re going to defend them to the end – which fuels the controversy.  I love my pirate, but I LOVED seeing Rumple hand Hook his own hiney last week.  You do NOT cross Rumple, and I can be a huge fan of Hook and still say he absolutely deserved what Rumple dished out.  It was so delightfully Rumple/Hook – Hook may be very intelligent and manage to work the entire dictionary into everyday conversation, but no one has the cunning Rumple has.

In regard to the ‘Hook hasn’t changed’ argument…I think that’s his entire arc this first half of the season…I don’t think Hook ignores his past by any means, nor do I think he’s not apologetic, and shamed by it.  I think he has great remorse for the person he was, and a great part of his focus is becoming the good man he knows he has the potential to be.  But he isn’t there yet, and he knows it.  Saying Hook is only interested in being ‘good’ because he wants Emma is drastically reducing him to a 1 note character.  It’s not just for Emma – it’s mostly for himself.  It’s because he did have honor, once.  It’s because he is learning how to develop friendships again, as he’s doing with Charming.  It’s being able to recognize what is good and bad.  You have to look past the CS ship and look at Hook on his own to see it, though.  So, no, Hook isn’t redeemed – but that’s because that story hasn’t been told yet!!  They’ve gotten as far as laying the groundwork for it, there’s only so much you can do at a time.

[Keb]

I don’t think it’s that Rumple has no desire to be a hero–he clearly does want to be a better man for Belle on some level, as he’s said so, in private, to his son’s grave, as well as publicly where his motives are more questionable. But even in his most heroic moment, he never believed he actually COULD be a hero–as he was sacrificing his life to save everyone, facing down his greatest fears, he declared that he was a villain and villains don’t get happy endings. He hasn’t believed anyone could truly love him since Cora dumped him (and he still seems to lack faith that Belle truly can DESPITE the bit of hope he’s got that compelled him to marry her etc–if he really believed 100% that he was worthy of her love, he’d quit lying to her. But he doesn’t.)

Rumple knows he’s not a good guy and while he’s happy to hide his crimes in the dark, he seems to recognize that most of them WERE wrong. His rare apologies (at least in the present) come off as sincere. And his worst crimes generally come back to bite him in the end, and we see that–even now, while he’s got his “happy ending,” it’s without his son and with this shadow of the dagger hanging over him like a bomb that’s going to explode it any second and we all know it. He knows it, too–or he wouldn’t have made a single deal with Hook.

Regina, meanwhile, has paid a lot of consquences for her wrong actions, no denying, but is in her own words without regret. Even while she’s saving people and being miserable, she’s still doing evil queen things behind the scenes with Sidney and possibly even Operation Mongoose. But she has apologized believably for at least some of her crimes…

Hook’s recognized that when he tried to go back to piracy it a) didn’t feel right to him anymore and b) he did some bad stuff. But when Emma asked him about it, he just covered it up until she was like, meh, whatever, keep your secrets, you’re still hot. She briefly lost trust in him over the kiss thing (rightfully so), but that’s about the biggest thing he’s had to confess to her, and he didn’t until his hand was forced. (To be fair, Rumple and Regina aren’t exactly forthcoming to their loves either.)

But he also seems to believe, as Regina did in S2, that changing is simple. That seems to be where his arc is right now. Rumple doesn’t believe he CAN change, but he’s at a point where he thinks maybe–just maybe–he can be happy and have it all. Regina’s in  a backslidey place where she thinks she’s changed a lot but it hasn’t done her any good at all, so she’s looking for another way–easy fixes.

They’re all at different points on their individual redemption arcs. And while Hook’s done fewer very horrible things on screen (he’s only successfully murdered 4 people on screen, by my count, compared to literally a whole village for Regina + another ten individuals, and 17 for Rumple now–but he’s certainly threatened and attempted to kill people, including his lady love, a lot more and quite believably), he’s aiming to be the true love of True Love incarnate–he’s got a long way to go yet.

Since I’m mainly a Belle fan, I guess I tend to measure the villains on how they treat her :p All three of them have wronged her, all three have apologized at some point to her. Hook’s was a meh-have-to-cuz-Emma’s-watching apology; I did not get the slightest impression he was at all sorry for hurting & nearly killing Belle. Regina’s apology was a bit desperate–I-need-your-help-so-I’m-sorry but she actually did seem sincere and was offering to actually help Belle in the same moment. Rumple keeps screwing up in ways that hurt her, but when he apologizes his whole dang heart is breaking…so I believe him most even if he’s being a jerk to her right now.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[PriceofMagic]

What I commonly hear from Hook detractors is that while Rumple and Regina have committed so many sins (more so than Hook, and on a larger scale), they can sympathize with them more because they feel that they have faced the consequences for their actions more so than Hook. That’s not to say Rumple and Regina haven’t had actions rug swept, either. I mean I still find it hard to swallow that Belle brushed aside the revelation that Rumple killed his own wife so easily, nor did Belle give Rumple crap about abusing people with his inner darkness when she was being Lacey once she got her memories back.

I guess I should ask this thread what they would like to see of Hook in the future to genuinely buy any redemption arc, if it is even possible? Phee suggested a few vague ideas, but I’m intrigued to see others elaborate. To not start a riot, please don’t simply suggest “Hook can only redeem himself by giving up his life” as an option. I’ve seen it suggested countless of times when the death spoiler of doom was upon us last Winter, and I would rather we don’t revisit that as to not push any buttons. This is something to seriously ponder. Can Hook be redeemed and how far would it take?

I think that’s an interesting question. I think Hook can be redeemed, as can Rumple and Regina, but there are a couple of things I’d like to see happen.

1. Hook stops threatening to cause harm to Belle- Belle is one of my favourite characters alongside Rumple, and whilst I understand the hostility between both men, I wish Hook would stop using Belle as a bargaining chip. Belle has done nothing to Hook so the fact that he is willing to cause her distress just to get at Rumple is a little unfair. I think one of the reasons I liked Hook so much in 3B was because he wasn’t threatening Belle in any way.

2. I’d like for Emma to know about Milah, just so that it doesn’t seem like she only knows half the story. Obviously, a talk about the ex doesn’t come up in every day conversation and I wouldn’t expect Hook to tell Emma about every woman he slept with, but because of the familial connection between Milah and Henry, it would be nice to know that Emma did know about the Milah connection even if it was to just let the audience know she was totally fine with it.

3. Just a general acknowledgment of past mistakes and at least attempts at making up for it, the same goes for Regina. For example, perhaps Hook makes up for trying to kill Belle by saving Belle’s life without it having any obvious benefit for him.

I agree with Phee about Hook’s character being slightly wasted after season 2 when the revenge plot ended. Neverland really should’ve been Hook’s time to shine and he kind of didn’t. We needed to be SHOWN rather than told the stuff that Hook did in Neverland.

I also agree with the Jenna’s interloper theory to an extent. Hook’s introduction to the show wasn’t as bad as MAP’s but as Jenna so rightly pointed out, Hook’s flashbacks are solely about Hook. Whereas Snow, Charming, Rumple, Belle and Regina tend to share flashbacks, Hook’s flashbacks are strongly Hook centric so unless your id your favourite character, those episodes can feel a little light on other characters.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[MatthewPaul]

On the topic of Hook’s involvement in Neverland, I would love a Hook centered Neverland flashback. Maybe one that actually shows the deal Hook made with Pan to escape Neverland? And depending upon if Dylan Schmid still looks young enough to play young Baelfire, we could also see more of the CaptainFire stuff that might have happened during their time in Neverland. Are we really expected to believe that the two never crossed paths again for the hundreds of years they were stuck in Neverland? I mean, Hook even knew where Bae’s cave was. Plus, we also get more Hook vs Pan, and I’ll gladly accept any excuse to get Robbie Kay back on the show for at least an episode.

[Jenna_B]

Honestly, there was so much they could have done with NL and it did go to waste, I agree.  There’s really only so much wandering around the same plants in a studio I can put up with!  And Robbie Kay as Peter Pan was wonderfully creepy…to me, his backstory deserved to be fleshed out better than it was.  I like the season broken up as opposed to episodes scattered but I don’t think that means each half of the season needs to have it’s own villain.  It would’ve been fun to see Pan in SB and to get more on all of the characters that were in NL…but I digress.

MatthewPaul wrote:

What I commonly hear from Hook detractors is that while Rumple and Regina have committed so many sins (more so than Hook, and on a larger scale), they can sympathize with them more because they feel that they have faced the consequences for their actions more so than Hook. That’s not to say Rumple and Regina haven’t had actions rug swept, either. I mean I still find it hard to swallow that Belle brushed aside the revelation that Rumple killed his own wife so easily, nor did Belle give Rumple crap about abusing people with his inner darkness when she was being Lacey once she got her memories back.

I guess I should ask this thread what they would like to see of Hook in the future to genuinely buy any redemption arc, if it is even possible? Phee suggested a few vague ideas, but I’m intrigued to see others elaborate. To not start a riot, please don’t simply suggest “Hook can only redeem himself by giving up his life” as an option. I’ve seen it suggested countless of times when the death spoiler of doom was upon us last Winter, and I would rather we don’t revisit that as to not push any buttons. This is something to seriously ponder. Can Hook be redeemed and how far would it take

Completely redeemed?  Can any of them be completely redeemed?  I don’t really think so.  Of course, we’ve also seen no one can be completely good either.  I think they – and any character – can find a balance between good and evil.  If you’ve gone as dark as Hook/Rumple/Regina have, it’s going to be far harder, and none of them are going to be spewing on and on about hope a la Snowing, but I think all 3 of them are capable of it.  It’s a matter of making a conscious decision, and that’s the difference between the 3, in my opinion.  Rumple would like to be a good man, the man that Belle knows he can be….but he also is struggling with his fatal flaw – his need for power and magic.  He still revels in being the Dark One.  I just don’t think he’ll be able to stay in a truly ‘good’ place until he willingly finds a way to give up the power (I know, not supposed to be able to be done until he’s killed…but this is OUAT, there’s gotta be another way!! 🙂 )  Regina’s gone through her redemption somewhat begrudgingly, to me.  I think, when Emma came to Storybrooke, Regina realized how much she was missing in her relationship with Henry, and I do believe all of her actions to be better for him are true….but I think when it comes to others and playing nice…well, she’s just getting to the point where she realizes the evil doesn’t have to take over.  (I reeeeeally hope this Operation Mongoose stuff causes her to realize she has to write her own happy ending….pleeeeease…’cause otherwise head meet desk).  I think Hook is a bit different because he has reached the point where becoming a good person is one of his primary goals right now.  He has a vision of the man he wants to be, and I think the more connected he becomes to Henry, the Charmings, etc, those connections will fuel his desire to become what he considers a good man.  He needs to get to the point where he’s not just doing it for Emma.  However, we have seen, last week (and many other times before) that Hook is a walking pendulum…and he can snap back into pirate mode at any moment.  But I think part of his redemption arc is going to be realizing that doesn’t necessarily have to be a bad thing – I think the pirate will come out whenever someone Hook loves is threatened – it’s just a matter of controlling it.

 

 

[Phee]

In regard to the ‘Hook hasn’t changed’ argument…I think that’s his entire arc this first half of the season…

And that’s all well and good if it’s what they have planned, problem is it’s the perception of MANY that he’s already redeemed. The moment his season 3 promo came out branding him a hero, MANY people glommed onto the idea before we’d even seen S3, during which in the opinion of MANY he did nothing to earn the hero label. So we ended up with the people who had their minds made up that he’s some sorta heroic Prince Charming type vs the people who sit and wonder what show that other group of people are even watching. The characters (and therefore the writers) seemed to have forgotten that he was gonna leave the whole town to die, but no biggie, it’s in the long distant past of S2, so the rest of the characters can just accept him as one of the good guys now because his promo poster said “HERO”.

And I know you don’t like comparing characters, but when you look at how much someone like Regina had to struggle to even begin to be accepted, that illustrates how little effort they put into attempting to integrate Hook with the good guys in a believable way IMO, considering he’s been no angel either. The writers go hard on Regina, but gave Hook a free pass, (none of the characters even seem curious about his past and who he really is and things he’s done), the writing isn’t consistent. That makes him feel shoehorned in just because they want him there ASAP and all the time, doesn’t matter if they haven’t taken the time to build up to him being properly redeemed and then properly known by and accepted by everyone. When you start looking at a character’s presence like that, resentment grows.

[Author]

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