Why is Hook such a divisive character within the fandom?

[thedarkonedearie]

i get that. My issue is that his character doesn’t extend far beyond that.  When he does its always shortlived or makes it way to being about romance and emma. I disliked the dark Swan arc near the end for this reason. They took an amazing plotline (emma becoming evil, Hook becoming a dark one, the very thing he hates) and made it into CS centered plot. Snowing often has this issue as well where they do the majority of things in stories that center around their relationship. But Snowing still has many more connections to other other characters outside of each other and have for many seasons.

I think that’s fair.  One question though.  How exactly did they turn the dark swan/dark Hook plotline into CS centric?  I mean they were together as a couple when all that went down.  So like if you make both of them DO’s, it’s going to affect the relationship.  But it wasn’t just that.  Emma ended up being able to fight it.  Hook couldn’t fight it and turned into a monster and tried to kill the whole town.  It was’t necessarily just about the CS ship.  At least that’s not how I felt.

To give an example: Let Hook find out his ship was actually cursed by Ursula and now Davy Jones will come to claim his soul. And he has to do something about that. Let Hook find out that not being in Neverland anymore will cause him to age rapidly and die, and he has to get Rumpel to help him despite them hating eachother. I mean, these all sound stupid, but they can make it work. Let Hook do something. Emma can be there for support, sure, but let the dude have a goal again!

All of this sounds amazing honestly.  I think you proved they could certainly write a story around Hook that doesn’t have to do with Emma.

The entire episode where Henry and Hook went down to the sub was pretty much Henry disliking Hook. They were better off at the end then the beginning, but they still weren’t friends. Charming has never been Hook’s friend. He just in this half said something like he just wants Emma to be happy, which is the party line for the group. They just want Emma to be happy. They are not friends with Hook. Belle has no one and is barely a character in her own right, so her talking to Hook is meaningless. They are never going to be friends in any real sense. They have conversations. They are not friends.

Oh man it seems there is a strong bias against this character from you.  Henry didn’t love Hook, but he certainly didn’t despise him.  And when the EQ twisted the shears situation and put Hook in a dark light to create chaos and to make Henry hate Hook, Henry fell for it.  That’s why he was upset with Hook in that episode in the beginning.  And by the end of it, he understood why Hook kept the shears and even basically said he accepted him as part of the family…oh and you know saved his life after Hook sacrificed his own so Henry could escape.  To boil it down and say the whole episode was Henry disliking Hook is so ridiculous to me.  It’s like you don’t even want to see the character progression.

And as far as Charming goes.  Even if they aren’t friends, I think it’s say to say that if you’ve watched the last couple seasons, you can see that Charming no longer dislikes Hook.  It’s not just because he wants Emma to be happy so he accepts it.  He has grown to like him.  You can grow to like somebody and still not be friends with them.  Again, there has been character progression here as well that you simply are choosing to ignore.

And to say Belle is barely a character to begin with is….well that’s just silly.  She has her father Maurice, she has Rumple, she has Snowing, she has Mother Superior, she even has bonded with Zelena.  And to once again boil there interactions down to just having conversations is also ridiculous.  Have you forgotten he let her stay at his place (his boat) so she could be safe from Rumple?  You chalk that up to just conversation?  What about when Rumple’s plan backfired and Hook saved Belle and Gideons life (and Rumple’s) by killing Jekyll and thus killing Mr. Hyde?  Is that just conversation too?  You are ignoring all of it bc it fits your anti-Hook agenda.  It’s really quite remarkable.

He is not only just Emma’s boyfriend and completely unconnected from all the other characters, he is a terrible boyfriend. He has treated Emma like crap and on multiple occasions almost been responsible for her death and the death of her family. Also, he is sleazy and a rapist and characters don’t come back from that on a tv show. They don’t come back from that and then date and marry the protagonist. He is a terrible character and should have died a long time ago.

 And without going into this, because I could, I would like to know what he ahs done to Emma that was bad other than when he was a DO.  When he was a DO, everything that he did and said is under everyone’s own interpretation.  I happen to think the darkness grabs the worst part of you and then your hatred comes out.  And since Hook had more darkness from his past, he was a much meaner DO than Emma was.  Also Hook was just plain weak and enjoyed the tasty darkness as if it were a drug.  But my point is I don’t blame him for anything he did as the DO.  That wasn’t him.  The darkness took over him.  But again, that is up for interpretation, but what else has Hook done, other than when he was the DO, within the last few years that was in poor taste towards Emma?  I just think you hold how he was before he started dating Emma (a womanizer) and still hold it against him.  But it seems you give other characters a pass (like Regina’s old self and how she used to be, or Rumple).  And that’s the double standard that really rubs me the wrong way.  If other characters can be redeemed, why can’t Hook?

[Grimmsister]

This is actually interesting.. I didnt know Hook was a more divisive character than so many others, but from this convo Im assuming he is. Perhabs its different because he isnt one of the main characters. And then, because he is so intertwined with Emma’s story, fans want to “figure him out” so to speak… and then if you dont like what you see you speak up more loudly if you are a Emmma fan and you want to look out for her. Also Hook fans are trying to look out for him.

I think the writers arent very interested in him and, Im sorry but I can relate to that, because what I think is the problem for him is- That the writing only sees him as someone to relate to Emma’s overall storyline. Because “she needs happiness and that means a boyfriend” (well appearently)… Then the writing doesnt care about Hook as a character on his own,, but they still are trying to “pretend” he is a main character, by giving him central storylines/episodes centered on his “very impportant” story…..

I never was a Hook fan Ive always found him boring.. there was nothing for me to latch on too in his story. But to some fans there was that factor to latch on too.

I really doo think it comes down too- the writers, I think they, like me and others, havent latched on to Hook,, so the writing didnt give him a story that would bring in the “other side” that is why he is so divisive within the fandom.

[Michael]

This is actually interesting.. I didnt know Hook was a more divisive character than so many others, but from this convo Im assuming he is. Perhabs its different because he isnt one of the main characters. And then, because he is so intertwined with Emma’s story, fans want to “figure him out” so to speak… and then if you dont like what you see you speak up more loudly if you are a Emmma fan and you want to look out for her. Also Hook fans are trying to look out for him. I think the writers arent very interested in him and, Im sorry but I can relate to that, because what I think is the problem for him is- That the writing only sees him as someone to relate to Emma’s overall storyline. Because “she needs happiness and that means a boyfriend” (well appearently)… Then the writing doesnt care about Hook as a character on his own,, but they still are trying to “pretend” he is a main character, by giving him central storylines/episodes centered on his “very impportant” story….. I never was a Hook fan Ive always found him boring.. there was nothing for me to latch on too in his story. But to some fans there was that factor to latch on too. I really doo think it comes down too- the writers, I think they, like me and others, havent latched on to Hook,, so the writing didnt give him a story that would bring in the “other side” that is why he is so divisive within the fandom.

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It may not seem like it but out of all the males Hook has the most screentime still with over 90 minutes. It’s not fair though cause aside from 4 episodes he along w/ Emma and others has been mostly background but you would think Rumple would be the one with all the screentime. What with how many times we’ve had to see disgusting scenes feat. EQ and him making out.

[TheWatcher]

I think that’s fair. One question though. How exactly did they turn the dark swan/dark Hook plotline into CS centric?

When I say CS centric, I mean specifically about their romantic relationship. The way it was setup to us was entirely different from what it ended up being. So the writers setup that Emma has taken in darkness incarnate, becomes an evil dark one, the very anti-thesis to herself, and at the end of the first episode it sets up that something horrific happened causing everyone to lose their memories and emma to embrace the evil and darkness…..and then we find out that’s not true. Emma was never evil at all. She was just pretending because she…didn’t want Hook to find out that she saved his life by turning him into a dark one and that this was all a ruse for him so that she could save him…without him knowing…despite that if he were a dark one, he would have to have seen the appartions of other dark ones…and not be able to sleep…and hear the call of the dagger but…..what? That arc was really not well written now that I recall it.

And don’t get me wrong, I’m actually perfectly fine with Hook’s half of that. Him becoming the dark one was awesome, very enjoyable for me and clearly Colin was having a  great time. But the entire thing just seemed so contrived, as if its something they came up with last minute. I don’t think it was even setup at all… With this arc they had so much potential if Emma had actually genuinely been evil, just as Hook was genuinely evil and willing to kill everyone as the Dark One, but they just watered it down to another love struggle story for them. I was not here for it. It could have gone so many places.

But my point is I don’t blame him for anything he did as the DO. That wasn’t him. The darkness took over him. But again, that is up for interpretation,

But that’s the thing, Emma didn’t become truly evil as the dark one. Hook did. Emma was able to fight  for what she saw as a noble cause even with the darkness. Even Rumpel, who was significantly more evil than Hook ever was, was able to do that too at points. But once Hook found out what she had done, he was prepared to literally send her and her entire family to hell because he was angry at her. If Emma had enough of herself within her to know what she was doing,  Hook did as well. It’s like when Hook believed Rumpel had cursed his hand, or when they went back to the EF, who he really was came out and yet we try to throw the blame off him for whatever reason as if its impossible that Hook can be an unsavory guy. Regina can be pretty unsavory, Rumpel damn sure can, yet when it comes to Hook, people act like calling him out is some insane thing.

But it seems you give other characters a pass (like Regina’s old self and how she used to be, or Rumple).

But we don’t give them a past. Especially Rumpel, where i’m pretty sure everyone here sees him as a villain and wants Belle to get as far away from him. Regina gets no pass either, Regina is always actively working against her darkness. I don’t see Hook’s redemption as being him working hard towards it. He just decided he was a hero at some point and now everything after that gets thrown under the rug when it comes to him. But again, this seems to be something we all see differently.

If other characters can be redeemed, why can’t Hook?

He can be. I can accept Hook as a hero (I think he and Regina and Rumpel should all be Anti-heroes, the grey area in between. Not evil but not as goodie goodie as all the others because that make them more interesting.) The thing is that when he does do something Hook fans, and the writers, expect us to not care because he’s Hook. There are excuses for everything negative about Hook.

Even Henry telling Hook that he genuinely doesn’t care for him, according to Michael, is false because the writers said so. I don’t buy that. I’m sure that was exactly how Henry felt deep down inside.

But ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Hook must be held in high regard by all.

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[hjbau]

I think there has been progression for Hook with Henry and Charming, but it is only from i can’t stand to be in a room with you, to fine you are here, i want my mother or daughter to be happy, so let’s get along for that. That is not friendship. I know that relationship and have had relationships like that. It is not friendship. It is acceptance of the situation. Also, Henry said something like let’s not push it when Hook tried to suggest he was family because guess what he is not. Also, someone can be part of your family and you not like them at all. Aka, Rumpel.

It is also not biased to just have a different point of view then someone else. My point of view is not invalid and is based on the actual things happening in the show.

Also, Rumpel is not part of the group. He is ostracized to the extreme and only used when they need magical help. Regina is not dating the protagonist of the show. I also don’t think Regina should date anyone nor should she be around Henry just like Hook and have had extensive conversations about that topic.

All the stuff i named was stuff that Hook did to Emma in Season 2 and 3. He is a sleazy, gross, degrading rapist and acted like it to Emma and her mother and the other female characters on the show. He still makes crude comments when Henry going on dates is brought up. He is gross. He tried to kill Emma and Snow in the Enchanted Forest as well as almost ran off with the bean at the end of Season 2. Who cares if it happened before they were dating? Those things happened and because they happened, they should not be dating. That is the point. A gross, misogynistic character like Hook should not date Emma, the protagonist, savior, good guy of the show. It makes no sense. Emma is no longer the person she used to be. She is less and as long as she dates someone as gross as Hook she will never be what she used to be.

If this show made sense then that is where the show would be going. Emma has looked like she was dying ever since she started dating Hook. I keep waiting for the scene where someone tells Emma that Hook left and she says i’m free. That should be the end to this awful relationship. Character should build story and Emma dating Hook is out of character. That is because plot is the story on this show, so the characters are out of character all the time in service to the plot.

Instead of them breaking up and Hook leaving they are going to get engaged and probably married in the next season.

[thedarkonedearie]

But once Hook found out what she had done, he was prepared to literally send her and her entire family to hell because he was angry at her. If Emma had enough of herself within her to know what she was doing,  Hook did as well.

I just saw it as an addiction.  When you give an addict a drug, they are going to abuse it.  Emma wasn’t a bad person before.  So when she got the DO power, it didn’t have the same effect as it did on Hook.  Hook had been trying to redeem himself and be a better person and the darkness brought out his thirst for revenge and hatred.  But just because you give a drug addict a drug and they abuse it, doesn’t mean he’s a bad person.  Especially since he was able to fight it in the end and not go through with sending everyone to Hell.

[TheWatcher]

EDIT to shorten: The darkness didn’t brainwash him, it didn’t force him to do any of that. His own feelings and emotions did. Hook is still responsible for his actions. He was so angry at Emma he was willing and had the power to send her to hell for she did. Being the dark one doesn’t take away his accountability any more than it should from Rumpel and all the crap he’s putting everyone through since he’s still the dark one.

I agree that the darkness definitely brought out some of the darker parts of him, but still. That’s just another excuse to make Hook seem infallible.

Hook goes back to being a pirate and abandons Emma’s family —> Its okay because he didn’t sleep with a prostitute. Henry is curse to reveal his true feelings and says he doesn’t like hook —-> no, that’s not how Henry really feels, he actually does like Hook. Hook becomes a complete prick to Will when he believes Rump cursed his hand to act out on its own and it turns out he really didn’t and it was all Hook all along —> Yeah, well, its the placebo effect, you can’t blame him. Hook tries to send everyone to hell —> Nah, it was just the darkness….

Is there any thing negative that can be said about Hook? Or is he just always good? And if he’s always presented as being good and infallible ,why is it wrong to say that makes him boring?

With Rgina and Rumpel, we can easily have discussions when they do some questionable, shady things, but when Hook does something its like its impossible to have a discussion about it. There seems to be very little middle ground. Most fans either really love him, or really hate him.

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[thedarkonedearie]

EDIT to shorten: The darkness didn’t brainwash him, it didn’t force him to do any of that. His own feelings and emotions did. Hook is still responsible for his actions. He was so angry at Emma he was willing and had the power to send her to hell for she did. Being the dark one doesn’t take away his accountability any more than it should from Rumpel and all the crap he’s putting everyone through since he’s still the dark one.

Agree to disagree I guess.  The way I see it, Hook begged Emma not to make him a DO.  Bc he knew what would happen if she did.  He knew he wouldn’t be as strong as her.  He knew if he tasted the darkness again, he wouldn’t be able to control himself.  But Emma still did, to save his life obviously, but there are consequences and Hook still had demons in him he was fighting and the darkness latched onto it and Nimue in particular was using his weakness for lust and revenge against him.  She was manipulating and tricking him until the very end.  I just do not blame Hook for everything.  The way the show presented itself, it made us feel like the darkness grabs hold of your weakest traits and exposes them for the world to see.  I don’t think we were supposed to look at all of that and think, man Hook is truly a horrible person deep down.  I think you were supposed to look at it like, man no wonder why it was taking Hook so long to come around as a good person, he has so much hate buried deep down, we have to save him before he destroys the entire town (due to the darkness)!!!   I cannot emphasize more that Hook wouldn’t have done any of those things if he didn’t become the DO which he specifically told Emma not to do.  But again, it’s debatable, so agree to disagree.

[Michael]

TheWatcher wrote:

EDIT to shorten: The darkness didn’t brainwash him, it didn’t force him to do any of that. His own feelings and emotions did. Hook is still responsible for his actions. He was so angry at Emma he was willing and had the power to send her to hell for she did. Being the dark one doesn’t take away his accountability any more than it should from Rumpel and all the crap he’s putting everyone through since he’s still the dark one.

Agree to disagree I guess. The way I see it, Hook begged Emma not to make him a DO. Bc he knew what would happen if she did. He knew he wouldn’t be as strong as her. He knew if he tasted the darkness again, he wouldn’t be able to control himself. But Emma still did, to save his life obviously, but there are consequences and Hook still had demons in him he was fighting and the darkness latched onto it and Nimue in particular was using his weakness for lust and revenge against him. She was manipulating and tricking him until the very end. I just do not blame Hook for everything. The way the show presented itself, it made us feel like the darkness grabs hold of your weakest traits and exposes them for the world to see. I don’t think we were supposed to look at all of that and think, man Hook is truly a horrible person deep down. I think you were supposed to look at it like, man no wonder why it was taking Hook so long to come around as a good person, he has so much hate buried deep down, we have to save him before he destroys the entire town (due to the darkness)!!! I cannot emphasize more that Hook wouldn’t have done any of those things if he didn’t become the DO which he specifically told Emma not to do. But again, it’s debatable, so agree to disagree.

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I completely agree with you and yet another case and point of the obvious double standard in this fandom. They hold Hook to incredibly high standards knowing that he won’t meet them just so they can continue to bash and hate on him.

[TheWatcher]

They hold Hook to incredibly high standards knowing that he won’t meet them just so they can continue to bash and hate on him.

But…What high standards is he and only he being held to? Is Rumpel not hurting the people he cares about? Is Rumpel not super Dark One? Are we making excuses for him? No? Then why for Hook? We always call characters out on their crap no matter who they are. And thats also a bit weird since you were demonizing Regina for blaming her evil deeds on the EQ. Its not a double standard. Im judging them all the same.

But yes. I think we all should agree to disagree. Conversely, it seems you have incredibly low standards and expect very little from Hook to be pleased with him. Im not holding him to any higher standards than anyone else. I think he’s boring, not progressing the story, and is being used as nothing more than to be Emma’s love interest which you both have said as well. That is a huge downgrade to his character that is only enjoyed by people content with seeing them together. I think Hook needs to be doing something awesome instead of being emma’s support group all the time. Thats basically it from me. It has nothing to do with a ship even though i dont ship them. It is all aboutbhis character and how they seem to be doing the least with him.

The problem i think here is that the majority of hook fans are primarily CS fans and thus dont see it from the same persepective as someone who liked Hook but sees past the ship and wants to see more than that from him.

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[Author]

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