- This topic has 296 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 4 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Just a little advice: avoid using the words lesbian and “anti-man” in one sentence, or in context at all. Being not attracted to men is not being “anti-man”. Neither means distrusting men to be all against men, neither does being against or furious at men make it anymore likely to be lesbian/bisexual than hetero. I know you didn’t mean any offense, but it can be misunderstood. In the wild wild world of the internet (Twitter, Tumblr) you might get some harsh reactions to such a statement.
But yeah, Gothel could be queer. As long as nothing different is explicitly stated by a character, it’s always possible. We’re just used to assume someone is heterosexual as long as nothing is stated, but that doesn’t mean they are. It doesn’t matter though that Gothel is unfriendly or dismissive of men or everyone.
That there is no romance with a man in the picture for Elsa in Frozen is one reason why people see a possibilty for Elsa being lesbian, but more important is that Elsa is a character being born different, and handling being different is her story in the movie. Merida from Brave was as well discussed as being lesbian, because she had no interest to marry, she was gender non-conform, rebelling against traditional princess gender roles, but as I observed it so far, the idea is even stronger for many with Elsa, because Elsa is born different, has a power isolating her, causing hostile reactions and fear. And when she decides to free herself of the fear and be herself, she quite visibly turns from a restrained girl into a confident, enjoying herself and her powers, young woman. Elsa is in situation LGBTQI can identify with.
But fact is, there is nothing making it more likely that Elsa is lesbian/bisexual than hetero, all that there is is an opportunity because there is as of yet no man as romance in the picture. Thus why I wrote, there is an open door. For a character like Snow White the door is in the Disney world closed concerning this, at least for now and the near future. Snow has in Disney world her prince Charming (not just OUaT).
I think it would be interesting if Snow held the homophobic view (maybe this could at least lead back to the dark spot storyline that went nowhere) especially with the birth of Neal because she wouldn’t want her baby to be around “that sort of thing”. Also young Eva had that line about a baby that was “pure”. Snow could’ve been raised to believe that homosexuality was “impure”.
It’s not plausible to me. Snow might have been a spoiled brat as kid/teenager, and so was her mother Eva, but I can’t see that kind of distaste and hostility that homophobia is. Seeing the gentle nature of Snow’s father, his openness, after all he wanted to marry a miller’s daughter (and didn’t feel obliged to do so, that Cora was pregnant came up later), highly doubt in his house something like homophobia would have had any lasting place. Whatever Eva might have meant with this odd remark of a baby that was “pure”, even if she had some upbringing including intolerant views, it seems that either her husband or some other influence changed her attitudes a lot over time. We later meet a very gentle, mature, openminded Eva as Snow’s mother.
Recently read again an interview that Ginnifer Goodwin gave in the first season (it is in the character analysis thread), and she does talk about that she played Snow and Mary Margaret with some lesser noticed edges in the traditional Snow White perception, like that Snow was somewhat vain (well, as vain as any woman was thought to be though at that time). That fits with the spoiled brat and being somewhat superficial at times, still not suggesting to me any likeliness of homophobia though.
At least the baby would be a somewhat plausible trigger for reactions. That is maybe the biggest issue I have with this whole scenario. As nice as it would be to give Anna a chance to stand by her sister in particular her choice of who she loves, why should anyone in Storybrooke care who Elsa falls in love with? It might work at best as secondary or tertiary plot, some side-note to the main story. Unless it is someone the main characters care about and they perceive it as threat. They might care about Red, but that much that it becomes an important part of the story? Not saying that Elsa being queer has to be an important part, for sure not the main plot, it can be a sidenote, but still should be visible and outspoken. But if you want to make Anna standing by her a point, then that demands some importance. Otherwise would prefer it being not an issue at all, but simply bring in for Elsa a woman to fall in love with as part of regaining her control over her powers.
[adrotate group="5"]¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯
But yeah, Gothel could be queer. As long as nothing different is explicitly stated by a character, it’s always possible. We’re just used to assume someone is heterosexual as long as nothing is stated, but that doesn’t mean they are. It doesn’t matter though that Gothel is unfriendly or dismissive of men or everyone.
I agree. You’re not heterosexual until proven otherwise.
Honestly with Gothel, she’s just “the villain.” She’s anti-everyone.
It’s not plausible to me. Snow might have been a spoiled brat as kid/teenager, and so was her mother Eva, but I can’t see that kind of distaste and hostility that homophobia is. Seeing the gentle nature of Snow’s father, his openness, after all he wanted to marry a miller’s daughter (and didn’t feel obliged to do so, that Cora was pregnant came up later), highly doubt in his house something like homophobia would have had any lasting place. Whatever Eva might have meant with this odd remark of a baby that was “pure”, even if she had some upbringing including intolerant views, it seems that either her husband or some other influence changed her attitudes a lot over time. We later meet a very gentle, mature, openminded Eva as Snow’s mother.
Agreed, again. We had several pages at length about Snow White, maybe some 15 pages back, on whether or not she could be homophobic and to me it’s just not plausible.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Just got to ask this…Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo just because Elsa doesn’t have a love interest in Frozen….automatically makes her a lesbian????? Well, whether Elsa is or isn’t a lesbian shouldn’t be our main concern…she’s only going to have nine episodes, so I doubt she even gets a love interest unless the show decides to make her a series regular! Hey…I’d have Elsa over Zelena anyday!
This will be a fun Season 4…I hope Adam and Eddy know what they were signing themselves up for because whether they do Frozen justice or not depends on the make it or break it of the series.
And making sure Adam and Eddy get this danmn story right is what matters, and not have it being screwed up like Oz was! They killed poor little Toto, cmon we all know that he was under that house. And the Good Witch of the East….pfft yeah right!
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
@WickedRegal. Please read the thread, it has been by now explained more than once, why queer people identify with Elsa. No she is not automatically a lesbian because she was not shown in the movie with a love interest – but that doesn’t make her hetero either. And if you can’t take this discussion serious then please stay out of this thread. Thanks
¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯
Just got to ask this…Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo just because Elsa doesn’t have a love interest in Frozen….automatically makes her a lesbian?????
I’m going to second @Myril here. This has been discussed at length and has nothing to do with lacking a love interest. There is a lot going on in this thread and we’ve actually had some of the most productive and interesting conversations on this forum in a long time. I recommend reading it all instead of jumping to criticism and misunderstanding.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"@WickedRegal. Please read the thread, it has been by now explained more than once, why queer people identify with Elsa. No she is not automatically a lesbian because she was not shown in the movie with a love interest – but that doesn’t make her hetero either. And if you can’t take this discussion serious then please stay out of this thread. Thanks
Oh dear….did I strike a nerve? Well pardon whatever rudeness you seem to have taken to my post @Myril for I meant no disrespect to the LGBT Elsa fandom, but I just wanted to get a clearer understanding as to why Elsa was claimed to be a lesbian, besides the fact that Disney did not give her a love interest. And based on the list of reasons that are on the internet…that alone always seemed to come up as the number one reason.
However, I am glad that many LGBT fandom relates to Elsa, in their own way. But do so remember that Mulora still has a fighting chance. I mean, my god, Elsa only has nine episodes…can we really fit in a relationship that fast? I’m as much a #Jelsa fan than anyone, and whether it’s Hetero or Homo, I cant see them focusing this Arc on her romantic life unless it serves one hell of a purpose! But then again…we shall see!
And I must request that the next time you’re being rude to someone only asking a question, I ask that you hold off the polite endings. It doesn’t soften the blow…it leaves a burn. Thanks! 🙂
P.S. My apologies to Oncers I may have mysteriously offended…I didn’t even know it was that big of a deal, so sorry that I couldn’t take it as serious as you all would have liked…
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
*treading carefully* …. well just to ask this question, is it wrong to assume that a character is straight until proven otherwise?
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICWas any of that necessary @WR? Any of it? No.
The question you asked is complicated and you treated it as a joke, and as if people who may feel that Elsa is a good spokesperson for LGBT rights and representation are insane. I told you to read the thread as a suggestion because the answer is much longer than I could possibly give in a pithy response. You treated it as if all of it was a joke.
In short: You cannot assume that someone is straight until proven otherwise. Sexuality is more complicated and what you’re dealing with is what @Myril and @CrystalPrincess would call heteronormativity, in which we read everything as heterosexual because that’s the way our society teaches us to read these things. Elsa is not heterosexual nor is she homosexual. She is up in the air. I am not queer, so I will not attempt to define why people who ARE queer feel that she is a proper spokesperson and why her story but people like Crystal and @Felie have given lengthy talking points if you want to read the thread. People do take it seriously, just as you take OQ seriously or Jelsa and your love of Regina seriously.
That settles this matter. Unless you care to discuss it more politely without turning it into a mockery, please respect all threads and participants of this forum.
*treading carefully* …. well just to ask this question, is it wrong to assume that a character is straight until proven otherwise?
In a word: YES.
I’m going to let @Myril write an epically long post as to why because she is better at it than I. But yes it is.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"*treading carefully* …. well just to ask this question, is it wrong to assume that a character is straight until proven otherwise?
No, it’s not wrong, but it is limiting possibilities. Saying, until stated otherwise by a character, a character can very well be queer, is simply a way to ask to stay open for more than one idea. edit: Or one can say as well, yes, it is wrong to simply assume a character is hetero, like RG put it. I am just a tad more diplomatic in this case (and have maybe a different understanding of right and wrong).
People very rarely have to come out as hetero. When you meet someone new and and they tell in the first small talk something like, that they went with their partner last night to the theater and it was a great show, most people will picture as partner someone of the opposite sex. We don’t give it much thought, we don’t question it, unless it is in some way pointed out, mentioned, made visible. Hetero people seldom have to explain, why they’re hetero. Fans seldom have to explain, why we wish for any hetero romantic couple on a TV show, maybe who we want to pair up, but not that on a show telling stories about love should be at least a hetero couple and not just only singles loving their parents, kids, and maybe their pets. Hetero is defined as “the normal”. And as the norm, so it has not to be declared, defined, explained. Thus the term heteronormativity.
In discussions it happens many times, that people argue, that it was not shown or stated, that the character is gay, and because of this lack of expressed otherness the character has to be what is defined as “normal”, that means hetero. But why should that be, as long as it is not explicitly stated?
Ask yourself, how many people have told you, or have you asked, if they are hetero? I bet with you, that a few of the people you know and have so far not questioned and assumed to be hetero are queer, although they might never tell you (because of society). It can be quite interesting to ask people, if they are hetero, some feel offended, but some wonder why I ask them that, and it can start productive discussions about how we are used to see things in society.
@RumplesGirl You did well. And thanks for the intervention No long essay this time from me, little sleep, not enough coffee and it is too warm 😉¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯
Okayyyyy then @RumplesGirl, I can see that I definitely Accidently hit one of your nerves. Boy, this will be a really rough Season 4A.
First of all, I said I was sorry if I Accidently offended anyone.
Second of all, this thread is 23 LONG pages filled with LONG posts…so starting from scratch with my attention span is a very complicated thing.
Thirdly, taking it as seriously as Outlaw Queen and Regina….uhhh….yeah I’m just going to choose not to respond to that at all. But then again… if something isn’t going the way I like it, then thank God for fanfiction, where anything can happen. #What’sCanonIsCanon
And last but not least….Politely?? Mockery?? What the…like where did that come from? I don’t even know what to say because that was the most polite thing I typed! I was simply asking a question…didn’t know that was a crime. You know what…screw the question, it has lost it’s relevance along with my interest in this ridiculous feud about a character(who we haven’t even met on Once) sexuality. Whether she be straight, bi, or lesbian…it’s Elsa at the end of the day. And I love Elsa just as much as I love Regina.
So I’m going to try this one last time. I am sorry to ALL those that I Accidently offended.
But as far as this unnecessary argument we all have waged tonight… 🙂
Now let’s get back to a more Civil, Polite, Mock-less, Once Upon A Time Forum Environment. 🙂 #OncersForever
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
The topic ‘Out in Storybrooke: Who should have a Queery Tale romance?’ is closed to new replies.