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Mulan is the only character so far that, whilst her sexuality is not outright confirmed as in “This character is homosexual/bisexual”, there is enough evidence to suggest that her sexual preference leans towards women.
Is there? She was in love with Philip and then in love with Aurora. I’d say that’s an even split because we don’t know about her past or future love interests.
Was Mulan in love with Philip though? Aurora ASSUMED she was because Mulan and Philip were close friends but MULAN herself denied it. Was it ASSUMED Mulan was lying? WAS it ASSUMED that a man and woman can’t be just friends?
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Keeper of FelixI wouldn’t say it’s making it the norm, its just that if they want us to know the character is gay, they will usually make it clear. Or it seems to just pop out of nowhere, and while I’m not a lesbian, I’m sure that doesn’t just happen over night.
But I think that’s the point. They “have to make it clear” that this character is “Other”
And for it pop out of nowhere means that you’ve already made assumptions about that character, ie: they must be straight and not queer.
If tomorrow, Ruby Lucas says that she prefers women to men, everyone will say “but where did that come from!! they never gave any sort of hint that she was gay!” But they shouldn’t have you. You shouldn’t be making an assumption about her sexuality and preferences because there is nothing in text that says she is strictly heterosexual. And they also don’t need to build up a queer person in such a way because that makes it niche, as if in order to establish a queer character you must put all these signs and symbols around them. It makes queerness look as though it is something strange, something to be decoded.
Conversely, if tomorrow Ruby Lucas says that she prefers men to women and has no interest in a queer relationship, everyone will just shrug and go “well yea. I never assumed she wasn’t straight”
Yes. If on the next OUAT ep we found out that Granny is dating Archie, wouldn’t we all be a tad surprised? You can’t just throw everyone together. You have to ease into it, regardless of sexuality.
No. Because go look at the number of ships on this show that have nothing to do with meaningful romantic reaction. Two hetero characters appear in a scene together, and instantly they are shipped together. Everyone puts the heterosexual people in pairs without any thought to chemistry or history or story. But do the same with same sex characters and instantly you hear “well, that’s YOUR interpretation” but no one blinks an eye at two opposties.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Question: What does it take to see a character as straight then? It seems that even if a character, Regina, has had a string of hetero relationships, you all are saying she could STILL be queer, even with the whole her true love is Robin thing. Are we just to assume ALL characters could go either way? Just thinking.
I think that if there is evidence to back up that a character is heterosexual, then it is probably safe to assume that said character is straight. Emma for example has had 3 relationships with men so it is probably safe to assume she is straight. Henry, on the other hand, has only been briefly shown to possibly fancy Gretel and kind of ignored Grace. Therefore it is entirely possible that Henry could grow up and realise he prefers boys over girls as a sexual preference. Archie hasn’t been shown to have any romantic interest therefore there is no evidence to prove either way whether Archie is homosexual or heterosexual. His sexual preference is entirely open to interpretation by the viewer.
What is wrong though, is to automatically assume and then even worse to insist, that a character is hetero, to make it the norm
I wouldn’t say it’s making it the norm, its just that if they want us to know the character is gay, they will usually make it clear. Or it seems to just pop out of nowhere, and while I’m not a lesbian, I’m sure that doesn’t just happen over night.
I agree on both counts. You don’t just wake up one day and decide to be gay from that day forward. There is normally a period of time where you realise how you truly feel. When you “come out” to family/friends, to them it may seem like it came out of nowhere or they may have saw the “signs”, but it doesn’t just happen out of nowhere.
In fiction, if you intend a main character to be homosexual, you have to give your audience hints that that character has a sexual preference for their own gender. In real life, that discovery may happen in private, therefore anyone that isn’t the person may be unaware of it until the person comes out and says it. In fiction, there are no “closed doors”. The audience is meant to see what is going through the main characters’ heads otherwise the reveal that the character is homosexual, especially after the audience has gotten to know that character, comes completely out of left field..
That is what is wrong: Queer ships have to be explained and defended just because, while hetero ships at best are questioned regarding a certain person but rarely just because
What do you mean by defended? If a queer ship, like SwanQueen, isn’t something that has actually happened, then those who ship it will have to defend like any other ship that hasn’t happened on the show like Ruby/Graham or Emma/August. For some, its not because its a LGBT ship, some people just don’t see romantic chemistry between certain people. For others, they just don’t see certain characters as being gay or lesbian until the show actually says they are. Has Regina been with a woman as far as we know? No. Is she attracted to women as far as we know? No. Can that change in the future if the writers choose to? Definetely. But for now, a lot of us dont see Regina as queer. I get what’s been said about just because we haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it isn’t possible and I agree, she COULD be. But, thats not definitive. She’s had Daniel, Graham, and now Robin. If they want us to ship Regina with Emma, they are doing it wrong.
I agree.
we had to do justify queer ships as long as we can remember, regardless if there were tons of chemistry and closeness and flirting, we had to explain. Each and every time. We even have to justify way too often when a same gender relationship has become canon
Closeness, flirting, all that can be a matter of intepretation. Its entirely different than if the ship actually becomes canon. There was a scene in S3A where Hook said something about winning David over, and a lot of DaveyJone shippers loved that and added that to their reasons why hook and David might get together bid, but for me it was just Hook being old playful Hook. It wasn’t flirty in my eyes,but if Dvid and Hook had actually got together, that scene would have looked different in retrospect. Thats how I feel with SQ. A lot of “evidence” for it is just how one inteprets the relationship between those two.
I agree. “Subtext” is how the viewer interprets a scene. Everyone interprets a scene differently.
Do hetero ships need much build up?
Yes. If on the next OUAT ep we found out that Granny is dating Archie, wouldn’t we all be a tad surprised? You can’t just throw everyone together. You have to ease into it, regardless of sexuality.
I agree. You can’t just throw to people together without at least hinting at it or taking the time to build it up.
As one more reason to be taken serious than the other? Why should that be? We interpret every piece of fiction, actually everything even non-fiction, from our points of view, including our wishes, hopes, fears.
Yes. What A&E write trumps what we feel because they control the show. They’ve written alot I dont like but I can’t change it. You are right, we interpret everything from our own experiences (if only you knew my life, you’d understand why I LOVE regina) but that doesn’t make them what A&E are trying to do. And no matter how we feel, A&E are writing their story so if they say Elsa isn’t a lesbian (for example) in OUAT, who are we to argue? We’d have to deal with it. Our interpretations have no effect on the reality of the show.
I agree.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixMulan is the only character so far that, whilst her sexuality is not outright confirmed as in “This character is homosexual/bisexual”, there is enough evidence to suggest that her sexual preference leans towards women.
Is there? She was in love with Philip and then in love with Aurora. I’d say that’s an even split because we don’t know about her past or future love interests.
Was Mulan in love with Philip though? Aurora ASSUMED she was because Mulan and Philip were close friends but MULAN herself denied it. Was it ASSUMED Mulan was lying? WAS it ASSUMED that a man and woman can’t be just friends?
Sure she denied it. But there were things in text, such as looks and dialogue that reinforced what Aurora thought. Just like there were things in text that Mulan was developing romantic feelings for Aurora. So you can’t say that one of those is weightier than the other. I would say Mulan is more pansexual; she falls for a person, not their sex or gender.
Then here’s a question. Why don’t we assume all characters are queer until otherwise noted?
Because society has taught you that being straight is normal and everything else is subject to interpretation and proof before you will budge from that stance. (to tie this back to ONCE: this is why, to this day, you will have people swearing up and down that Mulan went to talk to Philip, not Aurora. Because they never had Mulan actually say I love you, Aurora, people still assume that she’s in love with Philip)
Sexuality and desire isn’t straightforward of “you are this or you are that” It’s a spectrum. And even if you identify as straight does that mean that you’ve always been straight? 100% of the time? So you’ve never found someone the same sex attractive? you’ve never experimented? you’ve never had a dream or fantasy that is queer or bisexual? Now how do I classify you?
Most people are not purely het or queer. They exist somewhere on the spectrum. So assigning them as being definitely one thing or the other is wrong.
So why do you need proof that you are queer but not that you are straight? And if there is no proof either way, then reading that in flux blank slate character as absolutely being one thing is wrong because it assumes a normalcy that is dictated by society, not something that is found in text.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I think how a viewer interprets a character’s sexual preference all depends on the viewer themselves. Older viewers may assume a character is straight until otherwise stated because of their upbringing and the fact that whilst they were growing up LGBT wasn’t that well represented in the media. The younger viewers born in recent times when LGBT is more represented and it is a more open-minded society are more likely to interpret a character’s preference as going either way.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixIn fiction, if you intend a main character to be homosexual, you have to give your audience hints that that character has a sexual preference for their own gender. In real life, that discovery may happen in private, therefore anyone that isn’t the person may be unaware of it until the person comes out and says it. In fiction, there are no “closed doors”. The audience is meant to see what is going through the main characters’ heads otherwise the reveal that the character is homosexual, especially after the audience has gotten to know that character, comes completely out of left field..
This. Let’s look at it from a different perspective. If you were writing a story, do you go out of your way to give proof to your readers that your main character is straight? Possibly not. But if you want them to know a particular character is gay, what do you do? You TELL them, you SHOW it, and unless its being hidden, rarely do you keep it just in “subtext”. In a real world setting, I get what you all are saying, but in fiction you have to be clear. So if a character isn’t shown to be queer, they probably aren’t. Unless the writer randomly says so *glares at JK Rowling*
Then here’s a question. Why don’t we assume all characters are queer until otherwise noted?
Well when you read Anne Rice, you just have to assume EVERYONE is atleast bi 😛
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICThen here’s a question. Why don’t we assume all characters are queer until otherwise noted?Like wow….if we were to assume all characters were queer until otherwise noted, there would be no Regina because Cora would like women and Henry Sr would like men. There would be no Snow White, no Charming, no Emma, no Henry, no Baelfire, Rumplestilskin, no Cora, no Henry Sr, no Hook, no Zelena, and it would continue forth. So by them all existing…we have proof that they are at least straight. And by knowing their background history, we can pretty much come to a conclusion that they are straight. If any of them were LGBT in the past…we’ll never know, we can only go by what’s given to us in the present. Thus meaning that you have to point out that they’re queer in order for the audience to understand that this character is not straight but either bi or gay.
Everyone sees a character differently, and when you make a first impression on that character, then it’s gonna take some proof to make you see otherwise. It’s just first impression till proven otherwise."If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
This. Let’s look at it from a different perspective. If you were writing a story, do you go out of your way to give proof to your readers that your main character is straight? Possibly not. But if you want them to know a particular character is gay, what do you do? You TELL them, you SHOW it, and unless its being hidden, rarely do you keep it just in “subtext”. In a real world setting, I get what you all are saying, but in fiction you have to be clear. So if a character isn’t shown to be queer, they probably aren’t. Unless the writer randomly says so *glares at JK Rowling*
But this is the POINT. You don’t have to prove someone is straight because everyone assumes that the person is straight because that’s NORMAL. Gay is something that must be clued into because it is “other”
Like wow….if we were to assume all characters were queer until otherwise noted, there would be no Regina because Cora would like women and Henry Sr would like men
That’s not accurate at all. People might be queer and in hiding. They might not relish the idea of coming out. And if you’re assuming medieval mores like the show plays with, then they CERTAINLY aren’t going to come out because of the socialtial repercussions. So no, I do not accept that just because someone is married and has kids they are definitely one thing.
But the question was more general than just ONCE. I’m not even referencing ONCE right now.
Sexuality is not binary. It’s not straight and queer. What if a person was asexual? Or bi? Or what if they didn’t know themselves? Or pansexual? What if they are intersex? There are many possibilities for a person, not just “straight” and “queer”
By deciding that someone is definitely straight or definitely queer you’re reducing sexuality to a THIS or a THAT and it’s way more complicated than that.
Straight until proven otherwise is a problem when people won’t also say queer until proven otherwise or bi until proven otherwise or asexual until proven otherwise. Saying that someone is straight until they are proven otherwise is playing in societies expectations that straight is normal and everything else–bi, queer, transgendered, asexual, intersex–is some “other” that must be decoded.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"But this is the POINT. You don’t have to prove someone is straight because everyone assumes that the person is straight because that’s NORMAL. Gay is something that must be clued into because it is “other”
I’m not saying being straight is “normal”, this is 2014. I’m saying that if they want us to know a character is queer, why wouldn’t they SHOW it? If a character is gay, in order for us to KNOW that they have to clue us in to it or else it just is completely random. Idk. I guess its just a difference of opiniom
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICNot necessarily true, because every human has a First Impression. And that First Impression will make you decide whether he/she is gay, straight, or bi….it’s human nature really. It’s nothing that can be escaped. Although Society has enlarged it into such a big deal, judgement with opinion is within every human.
The first thing that comes to mind isn’t always, oh okay they’re straight, it could be, oh okay they’re gay. Or any other sexual there is long as it isn’t classified as immoral or disgraceful such as bestiality or incest. First Impressions are forever, and no speech, march, explanation will change that. Let straight be straight, let bi be bi, and let gay be gay. And I think it’s best if all parties learn to accept whatever happens because if Disney came out tomorrow and said, hey you were right, Elsa is a lesbian. Straight people will just have to live with it. Just as Gay people would have to live with Disney coming out saying, they were wrong, Elsa has/or is about to have a boyfriend!
Knowing Disney as being a kids company…I’d highly doubt they’d risk the Elsa/lesbian thing being known, but they settled with giving you hints and subtext to read into it, and settle with it. That is wrong on some level, but it’s also right on some level. Because one thing about it, if a four year old kid woke up in the morning and said, “Mom, I wanna be gay because Elsa was gay,” the parent would be the first one to blame Disney! And then Disney profits would gradually decrease, till they are a nonexistent company…it’s sad but it’s also the truth.
Just like Adam and Eddy….they really got some bad responses for turning Mulan into a lesbian(not that I was that much surprised by that…I kinda always figured Mulan was a lesbian on the Disney cartoon). And we all know how much Frozen is beloved, while at the same time is Once Upon A Time. If one screw up(not saying Elsa being a lesbian is a screw up before anyone comments) or what is viewed to be a screw up, people will view this as tarnishing Frozen in a sense. Again…very bad to think about, but kids are also watching Once Upon A Time. And many Christians who saw Frozen, and deemed it “wicked” will be the very same Christians watching Once Upon A Time to see their interpretation of the character of Elsa.
Elsa is a great role model for anyone, be it straight or gay, and I have no clue on who loves her most. But in the end, majority rules, and it’s taking the side which won’t hurt their show, or reputation the most is the side Adam and Eddy will more than likely take. So if you feel that Elsa is a great spokesperson for LGBT, don’t just discuss it, put it out there! Let Adam and Eddy know how you feel! Because trust me, there are many Oncers right now putting it out there that Elsa is straight, and more than likely telling Adam and Eddy all about their “straight” Elsa ships.
Now I’ve got some housework to get done before my kids get home, so talk to you all later. May the best side win…
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
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