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Holy smokes this thread blew up! Everyone is making really interesting and valid points. I will try to contribute a more substantial response in the morning when I am less tired because I think this is a really important discussion to be having. In general I think A&E are aware of some of the problematic issues in their show. Issues around consent and rape for example they HAVE to be aware of based on a few of the lines between Robin and Zelena in her cell a few episodes back, but they skirt around them and don’t address them appropriately – which I think is because they still want to try and keep things “disney” while also having some plot twists and keeping things a bit dramatic or “interesting.” (In the case of zelena and robin (or Regina and Graham) – it is gross and HUGELY problematic.) I think they are aware, I just don’t think they are that concerned with addressing them in a sensitive and constructive manner in the stories they want to tell. It’s like they want to dip their toe in a bit with some of these things but not address them full on, which is even worse. The show won’t acknowledge the larger consequences of presenting these issues and not unpacking them properly, which I think is because at the end of the day they still want to tell the disney fairytales just shaken up a bit to “keep it interesting.”
Overall a lot of the issues around class stem from them showing stories that are supposed to happen in feudal societies. What is interesting is that they brought these stories to the modern world and they could use that storyline to unpack some of the class issues of the original fairytales, but it remains largely a missed opportunity and as others in this thread have pointed out gets glossed over along with many problematic themes.
The writers want us to root for those they think are “redeemed” (whether or not the character is a matter of much spirited debate, as you know) while simultaneously showing that the heroes aren’t really all that heroic (#SnowingBecameBabySnatchers)
@RG, THIS!! THIS Yes! Exactly – the whole snowing kidnapping Lily story was so horrible and I mostly just try to forget this part of the story happened. How could Snow feel so guilty about killing Cora that she wanted Regina to kill her and NOT feel nearly as remorseful about causing a mother to lose her child!? Mal thought her child probably died and was surprised to see she survived – seriously you can’t get more innocent than a newborn (or hatching/freshly hatched?) baby – but destroying their lives (mother and daughter) no big deal ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ you move on so long as you promise to not be dumb and only good….. ugh that story.
[adrotate group="5"]"To leave an enemy without an answer, say these words to him: Aglaria Pidhol garia Ananus Qepta" and blow in his direction; then he will not know which way he is headed and cannot answer you." - Swedish Trollproverb
and the Jones brothers’ unnamed king who sent them to retrieve a horrific weapon.
Oooh good call Keb! When I was making my list I completely forgot about him!
"To leave an enemy without an answer, say these words to him: Aglaria Pidhol garia Ananus Qepta" and blow in his direction; then he will not know which way he is headed and cannot answer you." - Swedish Trollproverb
I definitely see where you are coming from and I agree the show has issues with class. A lot of it has to do with issues of class in the fairytales themselves though. Most are written in a world were the landed gentry rule and the humble poor subjects follow. Even when you have a character that comes from humble beginnings like Cinderella and she becomes a Princess, the system doesn’t change, just that one character does. The show has demonstrated that the subjects and non-royalty are mostly expendable with a few exceptions. The evil queen murdered countless villagers for defying her, but the viewers aren’t meant to care too much so long as Snow and Charming get their happy ending and eventually the show even portrays Regina as reformed and we are meant to sympathize with Regina (BTW fans of Regina – this is not meant to be an attack against her I am just using one of the most obvious examples that comes to mind about how the non-royals are expendable. )
Just to play Devil’s advocate though, I can think of a number of exceptions where non-royals are Heroes and we are meant to care about them:
-Charming
– Neal/Baelfire – definitely a hero (although died rather unfairly – still firmly a Hero and Bae was a great character on the show)
– Robin Hood and his Merry Men (Okay Robin in the original story didn’t have humble beginnings but his Merry Men and Marion do!)
– Gepetto and Pinocchio: August had his issues but neither are villains
-Archie
-Graham 🙁
– The seven dwarfs
– Red and Granny
– Kristoff!
– Hansel and Grettal
-Belle(maybe? in the show her family looks pretty well-off, but in the Disney version less so)
And royal/born rich villains for kicks:
– Snow Queen
– King George
-Cruela
– Regina (until reformed)
– Ursula (eh? okay in the show not sooo much a villain, but she was still labeled one for a bit)
BTW I once read this brilliant essay about the curse of poverty and a defense of Milah http://screwballninja.tumblr.com/post/57657612406/milah-the-curse-of-poverty-essay-in-6-parts
I obviously don’t condone her actions or even remotely like Milah, but this was well written and a really interesting take on the issue of poverty and how Milah was portrayed on the show. I highly recommend giving it a read.
"To leave an enemy without an answer, say these words to him: Aglaria Pidhol garia Ananus Qepta" and blow in his direction; then he will not know which way he is headed and cannot answer you." - Swedish Trollproverb
Squeee!!! I love that Madeleine Albright tweeted about this!
I hope the rumors are true – bring back #GilmoreGirls @Netflix!#gilmoregirlsseason8 pic.twitter.com/f0IDfinu5g
— Madeleine Albright (@madeleine) October 20, 2015
"To leave an enemy without an answer, say these words to him: Aglaria Pidhol garia Ananus Qepta" and blow in his direction; then he will not know which way he is headed and cannot answer you." - Swedish Trollproverb
Hahah! Yeah I was very amused by that scene and I hope they don’t come back. Was anyone else reminded of Jack Harkness in this episode? Obviously Ashildr is a very different character, but the whole not being able to die thing had me thinking of our dear Face of Boe.
Also, my heart still aches for Danny Pink. When the Doctor gave Ashildr a second chip and then explained to Clara why… * tear *
"To leave an enemy without an answer, say these words to him: Aglaria Pidhol garia Ananus Qepta" and blow in his direction; then he will not know which way he is headed and cannot answer you." - Swedish Trollproverb
I agree I think Lance is dead dead this time, which I dislike for a number of reasons. While I am (weakly) holding out hope that it is not a dark curse, if I were to put money on it I would say @RG is right and the dark curse was cast with Lancelot’s heart. This is the show that did the memory wipe over and over so should I really be surprised they recycled the dark curse again?
….Although, just to play devil’s advocate with myself, didn’t A&E say they wouldn’t do time travel back in Season 3 and then they did? Maybe they are lying about this too. One can only hope I guess. We know that the apprentice was able to open doors between realms, so it seems likely Merlin could do this too… Perhaps it was a Merlin thingy that brought them back? I don’t even care if it is another magical mcguffin, after the sands of Avalon they have set a pretty low bar for my mcgfuffin/magical explanations expectations. I don’t think they could come up with anything more trite and ridiculous. /rant over.
Sorry if that got a bit negative,to clarify I do really like this season so far and love seeing JMo as Dark Swan! I just really wish they would stay away from curses for a while, but is seems extremely likely this is the story they have setup: Lance and Guin were really True loves and under the influence of Arthur Guin crushed Lance’s heart for Camelot. I think Emma played a role in this maybe she was ordered with the dagger to remove Lance’s heart and gave to Guin to crush or something. Maybe that is how everyone failed her by letting Arthur get the dagger and now she isn’t evil so much as she is jaded.
"To leave an enemy without an answer, say these words to him: Aglaria Pidhol garia Ananus Qepta" and blow in his direction; then he will not know which way he is headed and cannot answer you." - Swedish Trollproverb
Hi Whovians! Like others here I loved this Dr. Who episode! Vikings, robot aliens and Arya! What is not to love about this episode?! I love the campyness of this one and the humor and sweet moments were so well balanced. @RG did you do a little happy dance when they snapped the sonic sunglasses in half?
"To leave an enemy without an answer, say these words to him: Aglaria Pidhol garia Ananus Qepta" and blow in his direction; then he will not know which way he is headed and cannot answer you." - Swedish Trollproverb
If this is true, it makes me wonder if the dreamcatchers are holding memories of past Dark Ones that are now inside Emma’s head and she’s basically infusing the dreamcatchers with various Dark One memories to try and get them out of her head. So we’ll see the First Dark One (or really any Dark One) but through a dreamcatcher.
Ooooh I really like this theory! Another idea I have now that you bring this up, is that since we know you can use a dreamcatcher to see memories, maybe she infuses them with memories from Camelot. Maybe this is how some will get their memories back… I feel like I read a spoiler somewhere that hinted at people getting their memories back at different times.
"To leave an enemy without an answer, say these words to him: Aglaria Pidhol garia Ananus Qepta" and blow in his direction; then he will not know which way he is headed and cannot answer you." - Swedish Trollproverb
AAah so many feels from tonight’s episode! I know this thread is pretty inactive but there were so many fluffy CS moments tonight that made me happy 🙂
Killian’s concern for Emma and his solution to help her escape the demons was ALL THE FEELS! <3 It is lovely to see hook be so supportive and their ride together was very sweet. Also that scene in the stable was so precious! It was adorable to see (a) henry squirm and be embarrassed about Violet, (b) Emma’s shock/motherly concern and (c) Hook getting a kick out of both of their reactions.
This episode did have some faults, the sand of avalon is a very convenient plot device for example, but overall the CS moments (and some nice snowing moments too) really helped this episode shine!
"To leave an enemy without an answer, say these words to him: Aglaria Pidhol garia Ananus Qepta" and blow in his direction; then he will not know which way he is headed and cannot answer you." - Swedish Trollproverb
