[amyfii]

3) Inconsistency in hearts and frozen people

The hearts I don’t have time to get into right now (though I think it’s been pretty consistent?).. but the frozen people I think has also been somewhat consistent. These are the cases we know of so far…

1. Anna in the movie – Elsa unintentionally hit her with an out of control spell.

2. Hans was intentionally frozen by Ingrid. We don’t know if she killed him. I’m thinking not since he’s in tact. She cast an intentional spell on him to freeze his movements but not his heart. She was in total control of this.

3. Marion – again this was an intentional spell by Ingrid to freeze her and her heart. She was in total control of this.

4. Helga – Unintentionally hit with an out of control spell. Ingrid’s magic is more powerful than Elsa’s and that’s why it insta-killed Helga instead of the slow acting one on Anna in the movie.

5. Anna and Kristoff (and possibly all of the kingdom) – intentionally frozen in place by Ingrid.

I think it’s safe to say that Ingrid (and possibly Elsa) have the ability to freeze but not kill people if they intentionally cast the spell that way. Or in Ingrid’s case she can intentionally cast a slow acting fatal spell on someone. They were out of control of their magic when they hurt the ones they loved. Or I guess it could be argued that Ingrid was in control with the Helga one but was intending for that spell to hit the Duke. Either way it seems consistent to me. It’s just a matter of them being in or out of control of their magic.

[amyfii]

Faves –

– The scene where Rumple walks into his shop and Emma is making everything go wonky. I LOVED THIS MOMENT. I love how drawn out it was because usually everything moves so fast in this show. This scene really benefited from the episode being extended. I don’t know I just thought it was so freaking cool to watch.

– I loved the shot of Emma driving off in the bug. Not sure why.. I guess it was just a neat shot and it stuck with me.

– Hook’s two voicemails to Emma. Especially the second. Colin’s voice was CRUSHING me. Like whoa. He’s so good it’s stupid. Also – is Emma ever going to hear it?? There was too much info in that voicemail that only Hook knew (and now can’t tell anyone) for it not to come back into play. Did Belle hear some of it? It would be cool to get like a flashback type thing of this later where we’re seeing events from Belle’s POV and we see her hear this call. Anyways… it was unclear whether Rumple deleted it off Emma’s phone or just said she wouldn’t hear it because he thought she’d be in the hat.

– The Emma and Elsa scene in the mansion is one of my favorites from the series TBH. Georgina and JMo really brought it and I was captivated. Loved the message too. So so important.

– Captain Swan hug and kiss.. duh… giggles all around. Also Emma noticing immediately there was something off about Hook.

– FIREWORKS!!! Yes yes yes. ALWAYS here for fireworks… hehe 🙂

Least faves

– Seeing Henry run away from Emma was painful. I didn’t dislike it I guess it just gave me the mega-sads.

– I hate to say but Outlaw Queen had me feeling really uncomfortable. I don’t even know why cause I don’t take issue with the cheating really. Also any time spent on this or Operation Mongoose AFTER Hook had his heart taken were like… I wasn’t even able to pay attention to them to be honest. Bad scene placement for me I guess!

– The Charmings being TOTALLY CLUELESS that both Hook and Elsa have disappeared from their house. The two people basically most attached to Emma besides themselves and Emma is missing and about to do something possibly dangerous and they don’t even realize these two have left? Uh… ok?? I just don’t like how the Charmings are being handled this season. Sigh.

– Rumple taunting Hook about Milah and Emma and taking his heart. Heart. Broken. Forever. *cries* Another thing I didn’t really DISLIKE just made me super sad!!!

– Rumple trying to use the hat on Emma. So stressful. I feel like Emma has done a lot for Gold (broke the curse… found Neal) and this deception was really terrible. I wish I could understand what they’re doing with this character. I’m at a loss. He’s somehow going below rock bottom??? Like how does this character get redeemed at this point? I don’t even know. Bobby is amazing though so that’s nice to see.

[amyfii]

So it’s fine if they want to go with this self-authoring moral, that makes perfect sense. But when it comes to the actual physical thing that is the Book, they should have a separate explanation for how it was created and by who.

Oooo interesting. So you’re saying there could be someone who created the physical book, but they don’t have any influence over the content? I hadn’t thought about the origin of the actual physical book but now that’s interesting to me.

[amyfii]

I’m kind of excited… I’ve thought from the beginning of this season that there is no author and the book is somehow controlled my Regina’s own feelings and choices. She doesn’t truly believe that she can have a happy ending so she won’t have one until she accepts that she deserves/can have one. She’s soo soo negative so of course her story is unhappy. I don’t really like the idea that someone is pulling the strings on the whole story somehow. It would be hard to come up with a satisfying person for that role I think. I like the idea that all the characters control their own destiny somehow. Snow and Charming always have positivity and hope so that’s how their story flows. Regina is always negative and that’s how her story flows because her choices indicate what she truly thinks about herself. It would be nice to see her turn that around for HERSELF instead of trying to be good for other people. She needs to do what Emma just did and accept herself and truly be happy or else her choices will keep going in the direction of what she truly thinks of herself which right now is that she’s a villain and villains don’t get happy endings.

Anyway.. just my two cents ! I totally respect that you guys would like there to be a real author though. I guess I just personally see lots of room for disappointment in that angle.

[amyfii]

PS: I think I just realized that you’re brand new and I haven’t welcomed you yet. Whoooops. Welcome! Let me know if you need anything.

Thank you! I’ve enjoyed the discussion 🙂

Mmmhm. Ambiguous is a good way to put it. Speaking on behalf of the SFers and the Neal fans of this board, since I’m obviously a big of that group, we’re all really…torn,…over it. It was a glorious moment for us and many of us were really emotionally moved. But then it was just straight up confusion because it didn’t feel like it came from a natural storytelling place. And then when we started looking at the episode as a whole–Neal and SF (specifically Tallahassee) were all over the place and that confused us ever more. Emma in plaid, Lily in a jacket and hoodie, stealing food, Lily being Emma’s “alabi” to an authority figure (both security oriented authority figures), talking about making a life together by the water (“is it by the beach?” It’s Florida. Everything is by a beach), breaking into a home to rest and eat and sleep, and ending with lies and betrayal. Then in the present day you had Emma’s Tallahassee (and 322 flashback) glasses, the photo, and the music. And we–the fans of that paring and of Neal–simply don’t know what to make of it. Because this might have been my favorite episode of the season and in large part because of this SF moment, but I just have no idea what to do with it now.

I think maybe it’s not supposed to be looked at as a SF moment, but as an Emma moment. These are big parts of her past and they affect her. It’s supposed to let us see into Emma’s inner thoughts and feelings. Of course thinking of Lily would bring back memories of Neal since the situations were similar. How would they convey that though? They bring in this photo of her and Neal and show her reaction to it. It’s not supposed to fuel the shipping though it’s just supposed to let us see inside Emma’s head and give us a character beat of her sadness and grief. I mean obviously that’s hard to accept since you love the ship and want to see references to it, but I’m not really sure what you’re supposed to do with it except acknowledge it as a nice moment and as a way that the writers are telling you that Emma is still thinking about Neal. They could have gone a different path and had her open up and say the words but I just feel like that would have been way too emotionally advanced for Emma (and it would have been wrong to do it with Hook). To me it’s more compelling to see her reaction than to hear the words. Show don’t tell kinda thing.

Would be nice to see an emotional convo between Emma and Henry though regarding Neal’s death now that his memories are back. They should have done that prior to Emma asking Hook out on a date but they are determined to leave Henry on the surface this year so far.

A good knowledge and understanding of common sense and world interpretation though is something quite important for good story telling IMO, if you want people to connect with your characters and their stories.

Honestly I think its difficult because of shipping. People connect to ships instead of characters (or one side of a ship so they focus too much on the one character and the other is just supposed to act in accordance to the ship). I’m guilty of it too. It makes it hard to see stuff for what it is. We get so caught up in these ships and the grand ideas of romance and when they don’t work out it’s hard to accept that maybe the writers didn’t see it how you saw it or didn’t want to continue it romantically. People have trouble seeing that their interpretation doesn’t equal the writer’s intention. We all see the show differently. We all connect to different things. That goes for the viewers and the writers. They can’t please everyone. They can’t even try to.

[amyfii]

I disagree about interesting to watch. I think there needs to be something portrayed on screen as a manifestation of grief–and not some 12 episodes post-death.

My overall problem with Emma and her running in S3B was that she she never gives her motivation. She doesn’t really talk about her fears and her anxieties. And then she went back and forth and back and forth. I’m not asking for her to be curled up in the fetal position with a pint of Ben and Jerry’s. But they–the writers–need to start giving some more moments of characters talking about their inner feelings and psychology–and this goes a lot to how the write more ACTION and MAGIC and MYTH! than they do the human stories of season one.

I just don’t think it’s in character for Emma to deal with it right away. She’s been sooo closed off. She would only deal with things when she’s forced (calling Charmings Mom & Dad end of season 2 with death imminent.. Telling Neal she loved him as he was about to fall into a portal). Let’s not forget we’re talking about a character who literally told Neal that she had wished he was dead instead of alive so she wouldn’t be forced to deal with what it made her feel. I mean… it doesn’t get much more clear cut than that.

Her motivation for running was that she didn’t want to deal with magical stuff and she wanted to protect Henry (see dock scene with Hook). I think Neal’s death solidified her choice to go back to NYC, but she couldn’t examine that further because that would require her to deal with it. She’s intelligent – if she looked inside those feelings she would realize that running away wouldn’t solve them. Instead we see her internalize, avoid and run away.. that’s her character. I don’t remember her going back and forth I just remember her telling Hook like a hundred times that she was leaving and his sad faces – lol.

We’re dealing with it 12 eps post death because for the majority of those episodes she was leaving so she didn’t have to deal with it. She decided to stay a few episodes ago in the finale and now has to deal with it as she embarks on another relationship. Not to mention Henry didn’t have his memories at this point and she expressed how lost she felt trying to deal with Henry’s grief and that’s when Hook offered to bond with Henry over Neal. She was desperate not to have Henry get his memories back and didn’t know what to say/do that wouldn’t be confusing or suspicious to Henry. She’s not perfect and she doesn’t ever emotionally deal with this well. She never has. So expecting her to do so, especially after a traumatic loss, will leave you feeling disappointed. She’s not there yet.

I think these two Emma scenes (the street and the photo) are where we ARE getting a look into her inner feelings and psychology. It’s finally here so let’s appreciate it! It’s interesting to watch right now. We’re getting these moments and people are calling them OOC or out of nowhere and that just doesn’t make sense to me. I see how it might seem that way if you were expecting her to deal with her grief right away last season, but that’s not how it played out and I kind of think this way is better. We get to see her deal with these things as CS develops and she’s forced to confront her relationship struggles in a more Emma like fashion (when she’s forced or when she’s ready). I feel like we’re getting more to a point where she’s doing things more because she’s READY and less because she’s FORCED and that’s kind of exciting!

I think Henry has had a lot of loss. He did lose Neal once before, remember? When they all thought he died in 222. And we got to see a bit of his brokenness. Now he’s gone for good–lost his father yet again, after Neal promises they’d see each other again. I get that A and E don’t write heavily for Henry anymore, but…there should be something there. And I’m not trying to tell them how to grieve, but the fact that–in the case of Henry–there is apparently NO grief…does not compute.

True! The way I’m kind of justifying this to myself is that Henry now has a “we are both” thing going on with the year in NYC. He’s got years and years of fake memories of thinking Neal was a deadbeat loser. Processing that death now becomes more complicated. This isn’t being portrayed in the show at all, but it’s kind of my interpretation of how they could excuse the blatant lack of Henry dealing. I mean god this poor child. First he thinks his dad is a dead hero. Then he finds out the truth and bonds with his dad and has to say goodbye. Then he gets blasted with years worth of memories of his dad abandoning him and his mom. Loses his dad while he still thinks that’s true and then gets blasted with his real memories again which are already confusing. Ugh it makes me really upset to even think about it. It’s just so twisted and messed up how that all happened. How does a non fully developed child’s mind even begin to process that? I don’t even know. It just makes me sad. 🙁

[amyfii]

But that street scene also came out of nowhere. After Neal’s death, we had one episode where she was angry and wanting revenge and then…nothing. She spent the rest of the season going back and forth over NYC or SB/magic but there was no grief-stricken feelings

I disagree that it came out of nowhere. It came out of her seeing her new romantic interest in danger. She is not going to just outwardly grieve Neal. It just wouldn’t be in character or interesting to watch. There’s too much other story going on. Her grief manifested itself in these emotions she was feelings towards seeing Hook in danger. She was self aware enough to correlate her annoyance with Hook putting himself in danger. to the fact that she’s still grieving the people she’s lost. I know people don’t like Hook so it’s hard for them to understand how important he is to Emma but he really is and those feelings are bringing out this fear and grief in her.

You don’t think Emma wanting to leave Storybrooke behind forever had anything to do with the grief she felt over Neal’s death? You don’t think she wanted to protect Henry from that pain by taking him away and not giving him his memories back? I feel like after Neal died is when Emma really went all gung ho and out in the open about wanting to go back to NYC. Emma’s a runner. She just wanted to get away from all of it to avoid having to deal with any of it. So why would she spend a lot of time grieving about it when she had decided she was going to leave and go back to NYC specifically to not deal with it? It makes sense that she’s dealing with it NOW since she’s decided to stay.

Let’s talk about Henry. He has mentioned his father a grand total of–what–once? And that was dropping his dead dad card on his still grieving grandfather as a form of manipulation. The writers aren’t very good at showing actual human psychology, in this case with grief. Henry should be a mess, or at least thinking about his father outside of just “this is how I turn the tables on Gramps!”

We’re in complete agreement here. Dislike dislike dislike.

How could they not understand this when 401 picks up literally seconds after 322 ended? And even if they do think it has been a few months–are we trying to say that grief has a timeline and after a few months, POOF…misery gone? Again, it goes back to the writers not really writing good human psychology.

I guess I meant more in the viewer’s lives Neal died months ago and many of them dealt with it or accepted it and moved on. They aren’t looking at the show under a microscope and examining days or hours. They’re just watching the show and experiencing it on their own time line. I’m not putting a time line on grief at all I just think on a television show where you’re trying to captivate your audience showing your main characters still hardcore grieving a character that died almost a half season ago isn’t very compelling. However, these moments of emotion and grief from Emma are compelling and special. Wish we were seeing them from Henry, too.

Good human psychology isn’t necessarily good television and that is 100% the goal here. It’s not a medical journal on psychology it’s a drama. It could also be argued that not everyone deals with grief immediately or in the same way. Maybe Henry just hasn’t gotten to that point yet. He’s young and maybe doesn’t understand the true loss yet. I really don’t think we can tell these characters how/when to grieve. They’re clearly not done referencing Neal so I don’t think it’s out of the question for him to come back up again in Henry’s future story (if we ever get any??? why so little Henry?? WHY?) I’m just trying to appreciate the moments that we are being shown that’s all I was trying to convey.

[amyfii]

THIS! The way JMo played Emma’s reaction to the photo was perfect, but it wasn’t consistent for the character. It’s exactly how she should be feeling only a couple of weeks at most after that man she had loved, the father of her child, died in her arms. Instead she’s been running around town cracking jokes and going on dates like Neal didn’t just die in her arms two weeks ago. So this reaction to the photo, while it was perfect, it was out of the blue, inconsistent, and won’t be followed up on, and therefore it feels less like a genuine, heartfelt acknowledgment of him, and more like them saying, “Oh yeah, Neal was a thing, don’t worry folks, we really do remember he existed and Emma cared about him one time,” before they promptly move on and get back to business as usual and the loss won’t be bothering her that way ever again because who needs character consistency when we have plot to move forward. And that’s why the inclusion of the photo feels a bit like a slap in the face to SFers. As for the bootlace, we didn’t even know that it was Graham’s until it was mentioned by JMo after she’d been wearing it for two seasons without explanation, so that goes to show how well they documented Emma dealing with having HIM die in her arms.

I have to respectfully disagree with this. I think it’s very consistent with Emma’s character. She just had that very intense moment in the street with Hook where she expressed her sadness and fear at everyone she’s ever been with dying. She’s clearly grieving and struggling with this grief. She had to get those emotions out before she could ask Hook on the date so saying she’s just going out on dates and cracking jokes without grieving Neal just isn’t accurate. I think it’s a perfectly reasonable progression in character and storytelling. These little moments should be enough for the audience to see that she is dealing with it and it does still affect her. Any more than that would just not be good television. Not to mention that Emma showed no intention of getting back together with Neal. I guess that’s controversial opinion, but it is mine. And honestly to the casual viewer Neal died months ago and they don’t understand that it’s only been a few weeks in the show time line. I’m actually surprised at the amount of Neal references we’ve had this season. So yes, going on a date with Hook is perfectly reasonable as is her Neal-grief manifesting itself in this type of fear that she feels about losing Hook. I think it says a lot about her character development that she’s able to share these types of emotions with someone instead of holding them all in. Emma has never been a feelsy emotional character and I am LOVING the choices they’re making with showing us these little hints of her pain, but still keeping her very Emma during crisis mode. I loved too how the picture-moment could serve to show us how both Emma AND Hook are still grieving Neal specifically. The street scene kind of lumped him in with the rest of the crowd and this photo scene really set him apart as something more important and I think that’s great for Neal and SF shippers. I don’t think we’re out of the woods yet of Emma grieving any of the people she’s lost. Especially as her relationship progresses with Hook and this new revelation that she’s yet again had memories ripped from her.

Also LOL about Once using TWO screen caps as photos this episode. The SF one didn’t bother me quite so much as the OQ one… I mean just… lol. I felt like the SF one was kind of cute and selfie-ish anyways and an unframed polaroid makes sense. But Regina suddenly having a pic of her and Robin printed AND framed cracks me up.

[amyfii]

Hello,
I tweeted Richard Schiff, who plays King Leopold, last week to ask if we would see him on Once anytime soon since I figured he would be in this episode. He responded and said that he is too busy with theater work and was not available to Once but that they are all great people.
I’m not sure if they will write an explanation into the show but based on last night it looks like they aren’t! If I’m not mistaken they seemed to do a far away shot of him but just replaced the actor with someone similar?

[Author]

Posts