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Emma didn’t say that, though. You were implying that Emma took Pan out there for the sole purpose of killing him. She was already suspicious that something was wrong, hence taking the box out to the town line in the first place. She knew something was off with Henry.
Actually…yeah, that’s exactly why they took Pan over the line- to kill him. That’s how she got Mr. Gold to help them- the promise to end Pan once and for all. She was absolutely planning to kill him until she realized something was off about him. There was a whole conversation about how talking wasn’t going to work. She thought Pan was doing things from inside the box- it didn’t occur to her that they’d been switched.
[adrotate group="5"]There’s a big difference between understanding and condoning. I understand why Rumple did it, I do not condone it, and IMO, neither would Neal. He would have said, “yes, you can be mad that this woman led me to my death and locked you up for a year and made you crazy, but you don’t get to take that into your hands and kill a defenseless woman.” I will just agree to disagree on being too harsh with Rumple. Victims of abuse and abandonment don’t owe their victimizes anything “fair” no matter how much they may love them.
Ok, maybe Neal wouldn’t have agreed with what Rumple did, but I think he would have forgiven him in the long run. I just can’t be angry with Rumple for wanting to avenge his son’s death. Now the lying and going behind everyone’s back…yeah, that I’m not thrilled with.
I guess we see Rumple’s actions differently. Maybe I’m naive, but I don’t really see Neal as abused. Rumple made some very poor choices, but none that I saw as outright abuse towards Bae. He immediately regretted letting Bae go through the portal, a choice Rumple made in a instant of fear both of being in a world without power and going to an unknown land knowing what happened the last time- Bae felt abandoned because he never knew the whole story. We also had a big reconciliation at the end of the Neverland arc. I would be sad if Neal had backtracked and given up on Rumple again. But all of this is moot anyway- Neal is gone.
Actually, yes, there would have been blood on her hands. She saw Marian in distress and turned around and walked away. Then she came back. Had she not come back, she would have been guilty leaving a crime in progress.
Okay, you’re right, there would have been some guilt there, but it still isn’t quite as bad as actually being the murderer. At any rate, I still think it was an interesting turn of events. I’m curious to see how everything plays out, and my curiosity far out weighs any concerns with Regina’s character.
I would be disappointed in Neal if he didn’t understand Rumple’s reasoning at least a little bit, personally. There were times when I thought he was a little too harsh with Rumple. I still don’t see Rumple’s motives as selfish in this case. Any parent in his situation would have wished to do the same- most just wouldn’t actually follow through.
As for Regina, we are only one episode in. Let’s see what happens. Just because she starts out determined to have her happy ending no matter what the cost doesn’t mean that will be her way of thinking the entire time.
If Robin really wishes he could be with Regina, than forcing him to be with Marian isn’t anyone’s happy ending. Roland deserves parents who want to be together- not parents who only stay together for the sake of their child. Marian could yet find another happy ending, and Roland can still have his mother in his life. I will be disappointed if Marian gets rekilled so Robin can be with Regina, though, so I’m very much hoping you are wrong.
And she didn’t just choose not to kill Marian. She actually saved her life. She could have just let the snow man do her in- no blood would have been on her hands. There’s a part of her that doesn’t want Marian to see her as a monster anymore.
“Killing Lost Boys, we don’t have to do that..” Peter Pan had Neal’s son captive, and still Neal took the path of not murder. He crossed worlds as a young boy trying to get his father back to be not a murderer. He was horrified at Rumple’s murder of the maid and stood in horror as his father killed how many guards when he became the Dark One? He yelled “no papa!” how many times when Rumple turned the man into a slug and crushed him. I don’t see Neal as a patron saint and I am one of his biggest fans. But he was a good man. And you’re forgetting something: a trial and justice. If Zelena needed to be put to death for murdering someone, there is a process. Rumple took the law into his hands, just like he does in the past when he murders others. I don’t care that Zelena is dead. I care that Rumple takes magic and the law into his own hands. Neal would absolutely have been opposed to brutally killing another person. And that’s not me whitewashing him or saying he’s a saint or some godsend or perfect. Of course he’s not. I recognize his flaws and his weaknesses but I also recognize his strengths. Rumple committing murder against a woman stripped of her powers, alone, in a jail cell…yeah, no. Neal would have been against that.
Well, like I said, Neal wouldn’t have approved of Rumple’s *methods* and taking the law into his own hands, but he would have understood his state of mind and his desire for Zelena to die The Lost Boys were just Pan’s minions. The maid was completely innocent. The guards were cruel, but not deserving of murder, and those who were turned into slugs weren’t deserving either. This is an entirely different situation. Zelena was a killer. I think Neal would have been a little more forgiving given the circumstances.
And we’re applauding this? We’re okay with this? We consider this good character development and reasonable storytelling?
Actually, yes. I think it would be out of character for Regina to just let it go or do nothing but brood. She’s not going to go from Evil Queen to a complete good guy in every way even after what happened with Zelena. I would expect her to still have evil thoughts now and then. Old habits die hard. I applaud Regina for not following through with her S1 way of thinking. She almost backslid too far, but she pulled herself away after seeing her old self in the mirror. That’s character development. Her new choice leads into her S4 A arc of trying to learn more about the book- a story that I think it’s going to be very interesting. I do not think Marian is going to end up in a bad way by the end of all this. I think Regina is about to have a journey of self discovery.
I know I’m going to get flack for saying this, but I’m not so sure Neal *would* be appalled at what Rumple did. Honestly, I think he’d be more upset at Rumple for lying than for killing Zelena. This is not some guy who accidentally nicked him with his cart. This is a women who threatened the lives of everyone Neal loved. No one was opposed to Rumple killing Pan- even Belle stood there and watched as he was about to do it. (I’m talking about when they had the Henry Pan, not the end when everyone was frozen in place.) I think some of you paint Neal as this patron saint when he’s not. Deep down, he is his father’s son. If Henry had been killed, Neal might not be so quick to allow the murderer to live either.
I don’t even see killing Zelena as selfish. He shouldn’t have done it behind everyone’s back after it was agreed to let her live, but he did it because she caused the death of his son. Any parent can relate to that desire. He wanted justice. I’m sorry, but while Rumple’s method was certainly questionable and tricking Belle was awful, I just don’t see wanting the death of someone who cruelly manipulated your son to his own death as selfish.
Going back to Robin and Marian…honestly, if he had just cut her off completely and there was not that grain of hope, their story would be over. What’s the fun in that? We’d have nothing but a brooding Regina in S4. Now Regina’s about to go on a journey that may start out for selfish reasons but could very well lead to some interesting discoveries for Regina. Anyway, she would probably have tried to get Marian out of the picture no matter what- even if Robin had just told her that he’d chosen Marian. Even if Robin did want to be with Regina over Marian, he is from a world in which divorce didn’t really exist. He felt bound by his word.
Eh, considering everything Regina’s done, I’ll give her credit for choosing not to immediately go to killing as a solution as she would have in S1. She’s the evil queen from the story after all- not killing *is* a big step for her. Maybe it wouldn’t be considered one in the real world, but in this heightened reality fairytale world, I’ll buy it. These are storybook characters- they aren’t from our world. That’s why it doesn’t bother me- I don’t try make it work within the context of the real world. Obviously, you disagree, and that’s fine- that’s your choice.
I’m also perfectly okay with the explanation that Emma doesn’t know how to control her powers yet. Just because she is true love incarnate doesn’t mean she is automatically going to know how to rescue everyone. Honestly, I think her struggling to figure her powers out makes for a far more interesting and entertaining story then having her be the hero without even having to try. I also don’t think it makes sense to have Emma already be stronger in controlling her powers than Regina just because she’s the savior. There’s a difference between having a lot of power and actually knowing how to yield it. (And Marian begged the villain because the heroes who were present had all been knocked out of commission.)
Bullet point style 1) Never said they wouldn’t slide back. But there’s sliding back, and then there’s throwing the baby out with the bath water. Rumple committing murder knowing full well it’s the last thing Neal would ever want? Baby. Bathwater. Bye bye.
We’ll have to agree to disagree with that one…
2) Never said Regina hasn’t changed. Like I said: hero last season. Back tracking this one. But I disagree with your assessment re: Marian. Regina is trying to get HER happy ending, but that ruins Marian’s (this is also why I have a huge problem with Emma’s promise to Regina through the door–realistically, Emma should have said, “I’ll make sure you’ll get a happy ending because you’re a core character and a regular star. The heck with this innocent guest star chick). @PriceofMagic brought this up in another thread: Emma’s promise was really unrealistic. It’s impossible to give Regina a happy ending and not ruin someone else at the same time. And that morality of that is…problematic, though I grant it’s because “main character”
Okay, I hadn’t thought of it like that, and yeah, of course it’s because Regina is a main character, but Emma never said her plan to help Regina find her happy ending was to make sure she ended up with Robin- that was Regina’s idea, and one I imagine will affect the journey we are about to see her go on. At least she backed out of outright killing Marian so I still say it’s a step in the right direction, if a small one. She may surprise us yet. We’ve only seen one episode so far. Emma feels really bad for what happened., but I think she would like to see things work out for everyone, even if it’s an unrealistic goal.
*Sigh* Okay, okay, you do have a point. I’ve said myself I wish A&E would tread more carefully with how dark they take Rumple now, because it does make Belle look like a fool after a while. Even Emilie has commented that Belle is awfully forgiving. But I just can’t get myself to jump ship and give up on them. They are Beauty and the Beast, and I still want a happy ending for them. I just hope they find a way of doing it that doesn’t involve Belle looking stupid because that would make me very sad.
I disagree that the back and forth thing is unrealistic and a lack of character development though…real addicts are like that too- my dad is a psychiatrist and has written a whole book on family dysfunction. I think them never sliding back at all would be unrealistic. I think it shows character growth that he at least attempted to give Belle the real dagger, even if it was under shady circumstance. And Regina has definitely changed! She decided not to go back and murder Marian because she saw herself as she was and didn’t like it- that’s huge for her!
Why everyone is hating on Robin so much…he’s between a rock and a hard place- what do you think he should have done? Not said anything to Regina at all? Dumped his wife? Really? I don’t think either of those sound any better. He is trying his best to be honorable. He can’t just ignore the situation- it involves him. We’ll see where it goes from here.
My issue is that Robin’s only reason for staying is “I made a vow.” Sure, honorable, but it also takes away from the epic love story that is Robin Hood and Maid Marian, as if they were just second rate to Robin and Regina and that’s just not true. We’ve had quite a bit of evidence that Robin and Marian were just as in love as our other couple. It came across as very “she’s the ol’ ball and chain so I gotta stay with her, but I’d much rather be with you.”
Rumple knows what he did was wrong. He feels bad- that’s why he went to the grave making a vow to fix it
But he’s not fixing it. Instead of trying to really fix it–tell the truth, confess, make recompense–he covers with more deception and lies. Including freezing his new wife.
Well, okay, I guess I see what you mean with Robin, and they were once very much in love which is why I wasn’t crazy about them making him Regina’s love interest in the first place. I didn’t like that they killed off Maid Marian. It is several years later though- he’s believed her to be dead for quite some time. He had moved on. Having her suddenly return after that point just threw a wrench in the works.
As for Rumple…well, that’s Rumple for you. He had good intentions – he just didn’t follow through. He was too ashamed to tell Belle what he did and too cowardly to face her anger or hurt- that’s why he froze her . I’m not saying what he did was right. He still has a ways to go. Like Robert always says, he is an addict. He is a very flawed character, just like Regina is.
Why everyone is hating on Robin so much…he’s between a rock and a hard place- what do you think he should have done? Not said anything to Regina at all? Dumped his wife? Really? I don’t think either of those sound any better. He is trying his best to be honorable. He can’t just ignore the situation- it involves him. We’ll see where it goes from here.
I didn’t see Rumple’s speech as justifying his actions but rather a promise to his son to make things right. Rumple knows what he did was wrong. He feels bad- that’s why he went to the grave making a vow to fix it. Or at least, that’s how I interpreted it. Obviously, many of you disagree.
As for freezing the lock, it’s my understanding that if things become cold enough, they can become brittle and break.
I do agree that Belle and Rumple breaking into a mansion was rather odd- especially for Belle of all people to suggest it!
