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@Elle wrote:
She made him feel like he was crazy. She may never have hit him, but she hurt him emotionally. That is emotional abuse. And he himself one believed she did not love him–the Pilot episode. She also forced him to come with her with the threat that if he did not, she would kill others–We Are Both.
In addition to the gaslighting and her forcing Henry to come live with her, or she’d start killing people, there was also how scared he was of her killing Emma right after Graham is murdered. He knows that Regina was the murderer and had good cause to fear for Emma’s life to the point where he becomes very depressed and afraid to do anything to Regina for fear she might do something to Emma.
She made a choice. She had gotten rid of her mother like she wanted. She did not want anything to do with magic before. She chose to learn. That is all on her. Rumpelstiltskin may have shown her the path, but he didn’t force her to walk it. She had a choice to refuse.
Yes, I loved The Cricket Game because it showed that time and again, Regina has been given many choices to do the right thing by the people she’s wronged, but instead she almost always chooses to do evil against them.
As sad as her circumstances are, she has to be held responsbile for her actions. And so far, she hasn’t really. She has never shown remorse and never once even tried to apolgoize.
Yes, Rumple needs to work on this too eventually, but that was definitely one of the reasons I was had serious doubts about Regina turning over a whole new leaf story line because she was doing it just to get Henry back and not because it was just the right thing to do. I mean it’s fine to have a goal in mind to keep her on the right path, but at the same time, if she doesn’t take full responsibility for everything that she chose to do, she’ll never learn.
[adrotate group="5"]@oceangypsy wrote:
I am so curious now. What could it be? I thought Jane Espenson said it was an item that was tweeted to her. So I think it has to be something we’ve seen before. Some of the clues she said a long time ago were that it was “shiny” and “red” and something else.
Maybe it’s a magic heart?
… maybe it’s Cora’s heart? (haha I doubt that, but she did say she had it somewhere that no one could find it — another world would certainly be somewhere it would never be found) But, going with this idea, isn’t the actress who plays “Tamara” going to be in 2×15 (“The Queen is Dead”) and 2×18 (“Selfless, Brave, and True”)? Maybe she was sent by Cora into “the land without magic” with Cora’s heart in tow. In which case, that could explain how August got it. In which case, I have no idea where it is now. Or why.
Shiny and red also fits “ruby slippers.” Maybe Nealfire really likes women’s fashion, haha!
They are supposed to do The Wizard of Oz sometime, but I’m not sure if ruby slippers would mean anything to Neal unless they did something magical in the box. So since a picture of a dagger has been ruled out, I’ll go with it being a heart, maybe even Cora’s heart, because of the “shiny” and “red” clues. Plus, he does have that picture of a heart on his wall; although, I thought that was more of a clue of Rumple being his father, and Rumple being the first character, chronologically,, well from what we’ve seen, of the pulling someone’s heart out of his/her chest magic. I don’t know how she would have got it here, but it would definitely qualify as a bombshell that fans haven’t really guessed if Cora’s heart was what was in the box.
Maybe it will only be a secret that Neal and Emma know about in the episode so eventually by the end of the season, working together with Snowing, Rumple, and Regina, someone will have put together how to destroy Cora for good. I agree with Phee’s theory that Regina will likely be the person to destroy Cora’s heart as an inverse of Regina killing her father and enacting the Curse.
I’m thinking Rumple since he tricked Regina into the Dark Curse in the first place…it may have been the reason Cora wouldn’t let Regina leave all those years…she was afraid Rumple would get to her. Then again they might be pointing to Snow (going back to the shows roots). I don’t know how that works in with the betrayal thing unless Cora reveals to Regina the reason the Dark Curse was really cast… She thought Rumple was helping her…but if he arranged all the things in her life that led to all the bad in her life…like Snow and the runaway horse that led to Daniels eventual death…she would see that as betrayal.
Oh, that’s not very exciting because as viewers we already guessed that Regina or Cora was the Miller’s daughter and that Rumple had been trying to find the right couple to create the Savior and the right person to enact the Curse, but while I don’t think Regina has ever thought of Rumple as being her friend, she probably isn’t aware that she was just a pawn like everyone else.
This probably is why in the next two episodes following “Manhattan”, Cora’s back story we’ll be featured. It also makes it even more difficult for Regina to help destroy her mother and help out the Charmings, Rumple, and his son Nealfire, who is the reason that Rumple manipulated and destroyed so many people’s lives. Not to mention the fact that if she takes out the Charmings, Rumple, and Nealfire, she’ll be the only family that Henry has in his life, and I’m sure that thought will cross Regina’s mind a lot. However, I think at the last second, she’ll revert back to being good, at least temporarily, and destroy her mother.
Cinnamonhummingbird also posted about the radio show. http://souphummingbird.tumblr.com/post/42901058667/manhattan-2×14-teases-from-todays-barbara-barnett
Thanks for posting your notes here. I linked to them in another thread, but I didn’t want to just copy and paste your notes. And I wasn’t sure if it would be weird if I send you a request so that I could copy and paste your notes just so I could comment on some of them.
We will find out about Rum’s relationship with his father.
I didn’t expect to find anything about Rumple’s relationship with his father this soon. I wonder if there’s something to their family line???
There is at least one reveal that could shock fans, even if other things have been guessed in advance.
I’m so looking forward to this since I hope it’s about the Seer and what prophecy/prophecies she made.
Greg’s “Her” isn’t important, and neither is his license plate, aside from the fact that he’s not from Storybrooke.
At any other time, I would be interested in Greg, but I just want the whole episode to be more about finding about Rumple and seeing Rumple, Nealfire, Emma, and Henry in NYC together.
There is an interesting betrayal that happens along the way involving the question of who is Regina’s real enemy.
Okay, this is sort of weird. I think it’s Cora, but that seems like it would be too predictable according to the spoiler, so maybe it’s Hook. That doesn’t make sense either because that’s too predictable, and the writers have said that his quest for revenge on Rumple is far from over.
Henry and Gold spend some time alone together. “It’s beautiful…Gold says some things to Henry that are really cool.” He buys Henry a hot dog.
OMG! I already know that this is going to be one of the moments in this episode that kills me. I’m already looking forward to seeing my dashboard filled up with .gifs of Grandpastilskin and Henry together in NYC. 😥
Rum was not drafted into the ogre wars; his service was voluntary. We will find out why he decided to fight, and why he left.
Drat! I should have predicted that Rumple actually volunteered his service because that makes it even more ironic that he became labeled as a coward. (I still believe that there was nothing cowardly about pre-Dark One Rumple, but he became one after he became the Dark One.)
I want this episode so badly.
I guess no one has posted the sneak peeks yet. 😥
I did come across notes from someone who listened to a radio show that previewed “Manhattan” early. http://portalsofperception.tumblr.com/post/42897408775/just-listened-to-barbara-barnetts-radio-show
Oh my god this episode is just going to kill me I know. 😥
@Lil’Red wrote:
There has to be a big shocker this episode, and I’m still thinking about the seer and possible prophecy – whatever it is, I’m thinking it will be a game changer (which Anton’s bean sprout was last night for me! OPENS UP SO MANY OPTIONS!) I’m expecting the general reactions of fans next week to be, “Oh, so Henry’s dad is Rumpelstiltskin’s son……WAIT! WHAT IS GOING ON OVER THERE!!!!!???” Manhattan was written by Adam and Eddy – really doubt we’ll be disappointed. 😀
While I do think that the big bombshell is probably supposed to be about Nealfire, I do hope that there’s a big twist or big twists involving the Seer that ties in with where the series is going because the future battle that the producers talk about is still very vague. While I don’t expect them to reveal everything to soon, it would be nice if we finally got some kind of direction on how the story is headed there.
@Hooks Spyglass wrote:
I think we will just be mirroring Neal learning to steal.
Yes, I think that Keith might be like a Fagin or Bill Sikes figure to a young Nealfire.
@King Arthur wrote:
@RumplesGirl wrote:
@EvilQueen wrote:
Didn’t someone mention it takes 100 years to grow the beans????
YES! The Head Giant said so in the first bit of the flashback which is why I am so confused with this whole bean thing.
Maybe the Outsider Greg Mendel is a bean expert and helps out? (Had jut posted same thought on different thread).
I thought he might be the author of Henry's book, but I also like the theory that he will be involved with Anton's beanstalk in some way because of his name. Maybe he'll be a part of both stories?
Even if Cora is dispatched this season, which I'm fairly confident she will be, I think that there will still be threats involving other nefarious characters getting a hold of the beans, so maybe that's why Greg and possibly HER will be around next season. Maybe Greg's a harmless enough person now, aside from knowing that magic exists if he really is just a regular person, but the thought of gaining access to and then control of the beans, could cause him to go dark and into villain territory.
@EvilQueen wrote:
That would be interesting but I’ve always thought of Charming as a family man (he was very attached to his mum) so I just get the feeling he simply can’t bring himself up to see Emma fully as his daughter, especially that he had absolutely no impact into her life and to how she was brought up, even though her values match closely with his.
I think he does see Emma as his daughter, but I tend to think that the whole “will they or won’t they go back to Storybrooke” debate is just something to create artificial tension to Snowing’s life since there will be no more love triangles now that they know who they are. I guess the writers didn’t think it was enough that they have to deal with Regina, Cora, Hook, Rumple, Greg Mendell, finding out who Henry’s father is, etc., and thought they had to come up with something that could create tension there just between Snow and Charming, but also tie into questions that viewers have pondered about whether or not the series will end with everyone staying in Storybrooke, everyone leaving, or something in between.
I don’t think it will be that big of a deal like they’re trying to make it. I think they’re just trying to give Snowing something to do, and that’s part of the reason this episode would rate low on my ranking for episodes this year. While it wasn’t completely awful except for the CGI in some scenes, it was definitely very high in filler.
For instance, while I felt bad for the Giant and how his family was killed off, it was pretty predictable on how humans, especially David, would come to his rescue, and by the end he’d have different opinions about them. Luckily, there was some humor and romance stuck in there during the Storybrooke scenes with Anton, so those scenes didn’t drag on as badly as they could have like the filler in “Fruit of the Poisonous Tree” or “Dreamy”. Plus, I think they used the right amount of flashbacks, so there weren’t too many scenes with characters that I’m not as interested in as the main characters.
I really loved the scenes with Gold, Emma, and Henry, and could watch an entire spin-off based on Grandpastiltskin and/or Gold going on some kind of adventures outside of Storybrooke. I don’t care whether he’d be fighting crime using his magic (which conveniently will work for him somehow on the spin-off) or a PBS/OUaT crossover with Antiques Roadshow with Gold as the new appraiser, but just give me more Robert Carlyle goodness. Maybe he’ll have more juicy material later on this season, but I really think he should submit this as one of his episodes for the Emmy award. Not that he’ll ever get in because OUaT has never been a critics’ favorite nor do the Emmys ever reward genres shows that often, but he was just perfect this episode.
* But while we’re at it…. actually Snow, yes, Emma should be telling Regina where Henry is. Given that as far as Storybrooke, Maine’s laws are concerned, Regina is his legal mother and Emma has no custody rights. The writers seem to be avoiding the obvious dilemma here – sooner or later the folks of Storybrooke have to click that their feudal customs are totally inconsistent with the rest of the Western world.
I don’t think that our law can be applied to Storybrooke because it’s not really part of the US at all, and any legal papers like Mr. Gold’s Bar certification, degrees like Archie has, etc., aren’t actually real. So I don’t think that the adoption of Henry was in any way legal. Even if it was legal, if Storybrooke were actually a real town in the United States, Regina would have lost her parental rights already since she at least in Storybrooke that Emma and Henry know of, she’s been guilty of murdering Graham, having Katherine kidnapped, although she technically wanted Katherine killed, and trying to frame Mary Margaret for Katherine’s murder, having Sydney take the fall for said kidnapping and framing, attempted murder of Emma which lead to Henry almost dying, so it’s a moot point.
Of course, the courts probably wouldn’t place Henry with Emma after removing him from Regina’s custody, but I’m willing to overlook that because at this point, Regina should be lucky that the Charmings allowed her any access at all to Henry because she wouldn’t have a legal leg to stand on after everything that the courts could find her guilty of.
I love Lana Parrilla, but I still feel of the two that Rumple is more layered. I think a lot of it might be the writers’ fault because Regina vacilitates so much between two extremes, that it’s hard for me most of the time to believe that she’ll truly ever turn over a new leaf. I’m not saying that Rumple will turn to the good side for sure either, but the Charmings specifically Snow have never pushed his buttons the way that they do with Regina. If she really wants to redeem herself in the future, she’s going to have to control her hair trigger temper in regards to them. Yes, they were fooled by her mother into thinking Regina killed Archie, but I guess she didn’t learn anything from when she was trying to be good for Henry’s sake since she tries to get Anton to kill David.
@TheLadyBelle wrote:
I have a feeling Neal uses another name in New York. Doesn’t Emma say: “here’s you boy” when they are looking name sign? If it really said Neal Cassidy, she’d freak out and know(or suspect) it was him before she catches him later.
Yes, I was wondering about that last night when I saw scenes from the promo popping up on Tumblr, and someone had screencappped the footage of Nealfire’s buzzer and inserted the name Baelfire in there. It probably doesn’t say that, but it made me want “Manhattan” even more because I want to know what name he’s using now and what he’s been up to so badly.
