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@steliokontos1 wrote:
Neal/Bae standing over the dagger with the sword while Emma’s holding Regina and all he says is choose wisely that was just cool Bae seemed to have a little bit of a cocky swagger to him didn’t he?
Which you’d expect from Peter Pan
Let’s say they do reveal that he is Peter Pan. Imagine how awesome the flashback scenes will be between him and Hook, since this show’s version of Hook also has a cocky swagger to him. It’s gonna be a lot of swashbuckling awesomeness. The thought of those two characters physically and verbally dueling each other is exciting to me. They’re both characters who have a certain coolness to them. Though I guess they would need a different actor for young Bailfire.
Then again, the way this show works a flashback between those two characters probably wouldn’t be anything we’d expect.
[adrotate group="5"]@timberump wrote:
Did anyone else notice baby Regina’s diaper? My fiance said it was like a huggies or pampers. I can’t find my glasses, so I can’t tell. Also, after everything that Cora did, I am finding myself FURIOUS with Snow/MM. The image of her sitting with her hands over her ears just made me want to smack her. I know that sounds harsh, but I had a physical reaction to her this episode. I can’t explain it. I think I like the show less now. Regina was SO SO pitiful. I have to keep reminding myself of what they did to Johanna last week.
What Cora did to Johanna, I think that’s significant. It’s always Cora or Rumpel leading the way down that dark path, with Regina always following. They’re her enablers
@myril wrote:
– Gold and Snow at the shop. Gold knows how to push buttons. And Snow is unfortunately very ready to listen. Tense.
Just like he always does with Regina, I thought that was interesting. And look how she does his bidding, just like Regina always does. See how easily he corrupts? Interesting parallels. Snow was also very Rumpel like in her manipulation of Regina, like she became an extension of him in trying to accomplish his goals. Rumpel’s dark influence is everywhere in this show, even now. Can he really be redeemed? Rumpel always finds a way to get people to sacrifice their goodness for an attractive end goal.
Yeah, I’ll provide another male perspective and say that I think she was amazing in this episode. I haven’t been struck by a female character’s beauty on this show like that since the first times I saw Red and Regina. I like dark hair, so I think there’s a bias there 😆
She made Young Cora seem larger than life somehow in every scene. She just looked liked a powerful woman not to be messed with. Rose McGowan was a great choice for a role like that. She’s the same woman who was kicking butt in Planet Terror 😎
@malchore wrote:
@Riddleraven wrote:
Frankly, Regina or Cora could’ve just turned them into bugs without having to use any dark fairy dust and squashed them!
This.
It’s always bothered me a little bit too. But if the magic users killed off the main characters so easily then we wouldn’t have a TV show. It’s for the sake of the fiction the “good guys” are kept alive.
Pretty much every James Bond 007 movie suffers from this meme. (The first Austin Powers movie had a great spoof of this meme. 😆 )
This link kinda explains it a little. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InvincibleHero
I brought that up in the favorite/least favorite moments thread. I do find that amusing how Kora and Regina were essentially holding back. It makes some sense for Regina because I think she still has some shred of good in her (or did before the events of this episode), but not Cora
@Demileto wrote:
Has any magic user other than Rumplestiltskin ever turned someone into a bug or rose, though? I recall only him doing such a thing, maybe that’s a Dark One exclusive power.
Cora could if she wanted to. She turned a guy into a fish a few episodes back. She’s as well versed in magic as Rumpel, and I think Regina is too. Rumpel is more powerful though, being the dark one and all, kind of gives him an unfair advantage
@Riddleraven wrote:
@myril wrote:
If they would act all rational they should see that there is no point at all, sword or whatever silly weapon they use, to win a fight against such powerful magic, so why don’t they surrender? 😉 😈
I don’t want them to surrender. I’m just tired of their POSTURING. They always act like they don’t even KNOW that their swords are useless. They always seem to think, “This time, it’ll work!” And that’s just stupid.
We’re dealing with fairy tale characters here, which means the classic, idiot hero trope who believe that good always triumphs over evil. Henry says this all the time and it makes me roll my eyes, but I understand that’s the nature of the show.
What I would love to see is a magic absorbing sword on this show. For any of you anime geeks, there’s this really old series called The Slayers. One of the characters is the best swordsman alive. However, he is usually the weak link in the group because he exists in a world where the strongest are all magic users. However, it’s revealed in one episode that his sword can absorb magic, he just never figured how to do it. So one episode has a villain take control of his mind through magic. In his possessed state, he was more dangerous than usual and fully knew how to use the magic absorption abilities of his sword. He took on the whole group of good guys, all experienced magic users and came pretty close to destroying them. They barely eaked out a victory. Basically, if you can find a way to nullify a magic user’s spells, they’re easy pickings.
If David had a sword like that, the power rankings on Once Upon a Time would shift dramatically in his favor
But then again, I guess those characters would CHOOSE not to learn magic given the supposed price to it
That’s kind of what I was hinting at. We’ve been seeing Emma use magic with no price at all this season…or not any we’ve yet seen anyway. I also feel like there’s no reason David, Snow or anyone else can’t use magic given the way Rumpel explained it this episode.
They seem to me moving further and further away from the whole magic has a price idea. I saw a lot of magic used with no consequence this episode. Unless you count the candle, but that was more due to the fact that saving someone from death goes against the natural order of things, an idea which brings to mind Joss Whedon’s Buffyverse but I digress.
I know one can say that only dark magic has a price, but what I saw this episode told me that magic is simply channeling one’s emotions and nothing more. To me, this says that there is no such thing as dark magic or good magic, it’s just all about the emotions you put into it and how you use it. And theoretically then, ANYONE can wield magic. Cora picked it up rather easily it seemed.
Not to be a complainer, but they seem to play it fast and loose with the rules of magic on this show
Favorite
1. I found Cora’s death poetic. The three people she’s hurt in her life all had a hand in it, especially Regina and Snow. Two women she has done absolutely terrible things to. And yet, it was sad that for just a brief moment she was human again….right before she died.
2. Speaking as a male viewer, this episode reminded me of how GORGEOUS Rose McGowan is. She had an amazing presence on screen in every scene.
3. There’s a certain irony to Gold living due to his family, and Cora dying due to hers
4. I’ve always viewed Rumpel as a sort of evil father figure to Regina, so the things we learned about him this episode seemed fitting, even if he isn’t technically her father.
5. I thought it was ironic that corrupt Regina managed to avoid Gold’s manipulations when he tried to get her to kill whoever came through the portal, but pure hearted snow gives in to them this episode. Nice role reversal there. We’ve seen Gold and Henry compare Emma to Regina in recent episodes, and tonight we saw that in Snow as well. Cold, calculating, and manipulative, she became her worst enemy tonight and will have to live with the consequences of that.
6. Bailfire was quite comfortable with that sword, all the more reason to believe the Peter Pan theories.
7. It’s sad, there was a moment where Snow got through to Regina and convinced her to do something GOOD, indicating that maybe there was still a way to save Regina from the dark path she was on.
8. Boy, is Belle gonna be mad when sees Gold walking around and decides that he lied to her in that phone call. In the state she’s in right now, she might think this crazy guy was trying to manipulate her.Least Favorite – These are just minor little nitpicks
1. We’ve seen Cora kill people or turn them into animals. How convenient for our heroes that she only chose to fling them around or teleport them to another location. It’s that TV trope of villains never taking the opportunity to simply kill the good guys when they can.
2. For all the bad stuff she’s done in previous episodes, I still feel for Regina. She’s in so many ways, just a lost little girl who simply never learned HOW to be a good person. She’s had so many beliefs instilled in her mind throughout her life convincing her that evil is the correct path, and she’s gone through life being alone as a result. Deep down inside Regina wants to connect with people, but all the garbage that’s been put into her head by people like Rumpel and Cora have made that seemingly impossible. It doesn’t help that every time she’s around Mr. Gold he continues to feed her negative beliefs just as he always has. She’s so convinced of the futility of good that her mind seems unable to see any evidence to the contrary. Regina is not inherently evil, she’s just a very damaged, somewhat brainwashed person. Kitsis and Horowitz have said before that a theme of the show is that people aren’t born evil.
3. I don’t like shows announcing deaths, not only because it somewhat spoils the surprise, but because it removes suspense and tension from episodes where they DON’T announce them. For example, we know the Regina/Snow confrontation next week isn’t going to result in either one of them dying, because the preview would have said, “And next week, another member of Storybrook WILL DIE!”. I’ve seen some memorable character deaths in other shows that were not broadcast ahead of time, making them truly shocking. I would then watch further episodes with tension because I never knew when someone else could kick the bucket.I don’t agree with a previous comment about the Cora flashbacks trying to elicit sympathy. I think it was just about filling in her back story for fans of the show and showing us how she became who she is. She embodied the sin of pride and that led to her downfall. I realized with this episode that one word sums up Cora’s entire character – PRIDE. As for whether or not she loved Rumpel, I think she BELIEVES that she did, much like how she has always believed that she loves Regina. We know now that she NEVER loved Regina, because she didn’t have a heart to love anyone with. I do think there was definitely a strong attraction between her and Rumpel over their shared hate and anger and an appreciation they both had for power. They’re both people who have been treated poorly by others due to their low station in life and bonded over that. I think they could have developed real love over time, but the king’s words set Cora on a different path.
@Ahkna wrote:
Favourite Moments:
1. Rumple’s backstory. I loved it 100%, there’s just not a moment that didn’t draw me in the acting was amazing. Robert Carlyle did an amazing job.2. Emma. Jennifer Morrison was phenomenal as well. I loved how well she captured emotions, very realistic.
3. Milah. I never understood Milah as her motives weren’t explained until this episode. I like how she told Rumple not to go to war, and he did, and she supported him so long as he didn’t back out. And I like how it hints that for her being his wife, was a curse after that, I imagine that in a small town that must have been terrible for her. But I did feel like her anger and alienation was overexaggerate though at the same time she was entitled to that. I do think she understood Rumple loved her son, like she was aware that he sacrificed it all for him, she just didn’t agree that that sacrifice, and what it meant for them as a family was worth it. She says it clearly, that if he was going to go to war, then he should come back with his shield or on it (not at all), as honor seemed more important than her son not having a father. (So they had differing value systems that conflicted)
4. The reference to the family tree. I loved that. I know a lot of people who insist Regina is not Snow’s Step-Mother, so it’s great that the show emphasizes that this is the case.
5. THAT SEER was amazing, the acting both as a child and adult was amazing, and so much of me wanted to hear a backstory on how she came to be imprisoned and what was done to her. How did she become the seer, what life must have been like being imprisoned and possibly even tortured for her gifts. It was amazing. She def. reminds me of Agatha precog in her emotional torment. Was just amazing.
6. Snow’s hope that Henry being connected to everyone will be what brings the entire family together (Rumple, Regina, Emma, etc.) that it will mellow each other. I like that hope, and that’s back to the compassionate woman I once knew. At the same time, she doesn’t seem to realize that so long as they all want 100% full claim over Henry and so long as this claim is biased towards or against people, there can be no peace, happiness, or mellowing out. It will take all of them working together, and healing, and it will take Regina caring more than ‘just’ for Henry. Will require an open heart, and I would be 100% open to a show that focuses on the drama that comes with healing and working towards working together than constantly antagonizing each other for what feels like the cycle of eternity.
7. Henry’s forgiveness/letting go of Neal (the more I watch that part the more I like what it represents). I just wish that that forgiveness/acceptance/compassoin would spread to more than just Neal. It seems Henry has very Black & White forgiveness patterns, but I like that scene because it does represent what I want to see so much for the show as a whole.
Least Favourite Moments:
1. Henry’s lack of Empathy/Compassion. I know he is only 10 (well 11 now) but what makes it worse is that he is never called out on his high level of judgmental attitude. He is the center of the universe and again and again this show reiterates that what Henry feels is law and everyone must bend down to him. This is compounded by his refusal to acknowledge Regina as his Mother or want to be with her, because she lied about the curse. Perhaps she wanted to protect and keep him pure, and didn’t want to corrupt him like she was. So it’s frustrating, that he doesn’t seem to consider other people, and what’s even more frustrating is he represents the majority of the world I have to deal with on a day to day basis. (While the other characters are adults and do this too, and he merely manifests on a whole new level that behaviour, he doesn’t have the best examples around him, and is never taught how to appropriately express emotions, nor were the adults around him, but still…I can definitely see Henry becoming a self-justified, jaded villain as an adult at this point, and can see why (Family) Therapy with the Cricket is much needed)This is coupled with the Self-Righteous “you lied to me” behaviour. First of all Emma put the boy up for closed adoption, she wasn’t ready to face having a son, that was gradually. She wasn’t ready to even think about Neal, who abandoned and left her. Further, why would someone reveal that your Father was a thief who framed you, put you in prison, and disappeared so that they couldn’t be found. The fact that Henry expects her to be 100% honest about her past and internalizes everyone’s behaviour is flawed thinking (both in reality and in this fiction based show).
2. Henry calling Neal Dad, he just met the man for 2 seconds. Didn’t it take him one year to call Emma his Mom? Further the fact that he refers to the woman who raised him for 10 years as “Regina” rather than Mom, is quick to judge her, based on what he has read in a book (which apparently never shows what she suffered and went through). He believes she is guilty then says ‘I always knew it’ when she is not. He abandons Regina again and again and this is promoted by the “Heroes” that she has no claim over him, and can ‘stand’ her up and do awful things because she is the Evil Queen. They don’t represent good examples. It bothers me that this show constantly spits on adoption, and that the vast majority seem to support this spitting. Why? Because she’s the “Evil Queen” (which to me basically means “someone who is suffering”, she wanted happiness and blamed Snow White for that, she thought it would bring her peace, and it didn’t. What brought her peace was Henry. He is the key between bringing peace (a heavy burden I know, but the writers wrote him as the key), yet he antagonizes and blames people preventing that peace as he continues to polarize people rather than insist that they work together, rather blaming them when one falls short of his expectations (I KNOW he’s only 11, but I do expect more esp. in a fictional setting)). The fact is I’m frustrated by the overall lack of Empathy and Compassion, Healing and Love, and respect for each other that the show writes into the script overall. It most definitely feels like a massive soap opera the constant bickering between each other.
3. Neal abandoned Emma, set her up, framed her. His reasons… “I know you’re Baelfire” and “Pinocchio told me too”, weren’t good enough. Deep down he was running from his father because he felt he abandoned him. That’s not a good excuse. So the fact that he feels Emma ‘owes’ him something frustrated me. The fact that people seem to be OK with it, because he’s cute and Henry’s father further frustrates me for the same reason people seem to be drawn to ‘bad boy Edward’.
4. Regina with Cora, and the fact that Snow White has become hardened and bitter towards her and says quite self-righteously (as a way to stab and hurt her most) in the promo “You know she doesn’t love you”. The dig bothers me because Regina’s pain and suffering and her negative behaviour is a result of her Mother and Rumple and others manipulating her in her life. And that her Mother’s (twisted love) and Regina’s desire for it is part of that and being vindictive won’t ease the situation, it will only make things worse.
While I Have to admit I always saw Snow White as the beacon of compassion even though it was somewhat naive at times. My hope was that she wouldn’t close her heart completely, though her closure and hostility is understandable.
My Hope
1. I do hope that Emma and Neal are able to get past their issues. I don’t know if Emma loves Neal, but if she loves him and forgives him, and if Neal grows for the better I can see them as a nice pair. But only if their relationship is ‘healthy’, if it is Neal denying and showing no empathy or care or even remorse for what he did to Emma, then I’m not for it.
2. That Regina gains joint Custody of her son at the very least, and that Henry respects and refers to her as Mom.
3. That there is healing and forgiveness, not just fighting with each other all the time for drama’s sake. But Rumple working hard to be Neal’s father for abandoning him, Regina and Emma working together to raise Henry. Neal working on his issues and Emma working on her trust issues. Henry working thanks to the examples above him, on forgiveness, compassion, yet not confusing compassion with lack of responsibility.
I’d like to see Regina and Snow White have some healing. I really want to see Regina forgive Snow White and finally stop blaming and letting go and I’d like to see Snow White as hard as it is forgive too. I’d like to see Prince Charming and the rest of the gang who got caught in the mess between Regina and Snow White stop picking sides and promote an environment that is less hostile and makes this welcome for them.
I’d like to see everyone get a happy ending, and that “Thanksgiving” dinner that was discussed. I can see everyone getting a happy ending, a family: Rumple has his son, marries Belle, Regina becomes the kind Step Mother to Snow White, they rebuild their relationship, she shares custody with Emma. Perhaps Emma and Baelfire are together, but if they are not together, then at least it is not ‘hostile’ and there is healing that has been done there between each other.
I’d like to see Neal/Baelfire get to be in Henry’s life. and Henry grow some compassion. I’d like to see Henry (who parallels Regina on so many fronts) and Regina both realize that they aren’t the center of the universe, and that there are other people to live for and love, and to realize that.
I don’t want:
This story to perpetuate something that has turned me off from most Disney faery tales. The Black & White, Good vs. Evil. In this world we need to learn to talk to each other and heal, and this story can represent us breaking those barriers or it can represent us getting trapped in the same judgmental, controlling, self-centered, egoic boxes we find ourselves in.Then of course I imagine the writers can’t do that, because they themselves are trapped in that cycle, and that this story will continue to represent the tragedy that often represents many prominent aspects of life. Where the Heroes are allowed to do terrible, uncompassionate things to others and justify it, and the Villain is allowed to suffer, but never allowed to grow or get a happy ending. And where forgiveness/compassion once again is equated with letting off the hook rather than ‘taking responsibility for self and actions, and learning from mistakes to be better people’. In which case happy endings only happen when “The Witch is Dead”, rather than the Witch taking responsibility, learning, healing, and as a whole moving on in life….maybe that’s a faery tale ending, but that’s what I watch faery tales for!
That’s quite an amazing post. I have a few related thoughts and opinions. I would like to see Emma and Regina become very close friends. I can’t help but feel that Emma is every bit as important to Regina eventually becoming a good person as Henry. Regina desperately needs a friend, and a love interest wouldn’t hurt either, but I don’t see anyone on the show that could fill that role (wish I could though 🙂 ). She could have a friend in Emma though. She is so focused on Henry because she doesn’t think anyone else could ever care about her. I would enjoy seeing her and Emma both raise Henry. I also would like to see Regina take all that anger and resentment she has for Snow and direct it towards the person that deserves it, her mother. She’s spent her life persecuting Snow for something Kora did.
Your perspective on Milah is interesting. I still kind of hate her, but you’ve gotten me to look at her in a bit of a different way.
I actually fully support Henry’s anger towards Emma for lying about his father. I believe every child should know the truth about their parents, for better or for worse. They have a RIGHT to know. Frankly, I advocate honesty in general in any close relationship. It just makes things easier in the long run. It ends many conflicts before they can even start. I think Emma’s handling of the situation was very poor. I don’t recall if she ever apologized, she just made excuses. It’s fine for her to explain to Henry why she did what she did, but she was still wrong and needs to say that.
I don’t blame Neal for leaving Emma. August made a VERY strong case and made it seem like it was something he HAD to do for Emma’s sake. I think Emma should be more angry with August than Neal, but August isn’t really around right now to be angry at. I like to trace a problem back to its source, and this all leads back to August.
As for Snow telling Regina that Kora doesn’t love her, I like that line. That’s a big heavy dose of the truth, and sometimes people need to hear that. Kora doesn’t love ANYONE. She loves POWER and right now she wants power over Regina and power over Rumpel. Kora is only content when she is in control of everything around her. She is the most evil character on the show so far, by a pretty wide margin. I’ve not seen an ounce of humanity in her. I see no chance of redemption for her character. She’s too far gone. Though some fans have put forth an interesting theory that she is only so evil because she has magically removed her own heart.
I strongly agree with you on how nice it would be to see everyone eventually get along on this show and work out their issues, though I don’t see much hope for Kora. Given the nature of this show as a drama though, I expect that some characters will not get a happy ending. I could be wrong though
