Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
I hate season 3B, they killed off an interesting character and assassinated the personality of every character on the show for that ridiculous finale. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it.
Even the moments that led to the time travel didn’t make sense! Emma tells everyone she wants to take Henry back to NYC and leaves the diner, and Hook is the one to follow her? Out of all the people there, her stalker is the best man to reason with her why she needs to stay? NO. The one that needed to go after her was Regina and tell her “You are not taking my son away from me” like a good S2 Regina would, but I guess she needed to spend more time with Robin instead of making sure her son stays in Storybrooke. Whatever A&E, you betrayed your story and your characters and your fans by selling out and do this “epic wish fulfillment” followed by Disney cash grab.
[adrotate group="5"]"All your questions are pointless"
Which is a shame cause bringing a character to a confrontation about the bad things they did creates great scenes and great drama (e.g. Emma and Neal bar scene in 214). Characters can have flaws, characters can do make mistakes, that’s what makes them interesting. But there is no point if they are not confronted about it, everything is forgotten and everyone is happy. Redemption is not just forget about the past and doing good things, it’s about atonement, making amends and earning forgiveness
See this is where the Neal hate comes, bc with everyone else they show the abuser side, and im not calling Neal abuser, but im saying that on Neal and Emma case, they showed only Emma side, reason why Neal is so hated, bc to the fans he is an abuser, they never showed Neal side, Adam said that Neal didnt called the police and that bad things would happen if they ended together, but they never shown, Neal not calling the police, or the bad things that could ahev happen, or how was Neal life after leaving Emma, that is why on oncers minds, what Neal did to Emma was worst than Regina or Hook or even Rumple, or Zelena did as villains, in this case they were only focus on the “victim” side.
I agree, I think Neal is unfairly hated because we didn’t get the whole story (and never will because of fanservice), because he can’t get the excuse of “it’s fantasy, it’s not real” or “he was a villain”, because he was called out on the mistake he made from his victim (because that’s what should be done), because he was clearly the direction they were going for and it was hated by CS and SQ (as much as “they are on SF side” now), ultimately making him off the show (even if it’s indirectly). It always bothers me how they think that Neal is such a horrible person for what he did, but somehow Hook and Regina, both tried to kill Emma, are saints.
"All your questions are pointless"
So while murder is terrible, it is television, not real life
And there it is. Your overall argument in a nutshell: it’s just a TV show. Sure. Of course it is. It’s a TV show. I am well aware of the fact that there is not a town in Maine that houses Snow White, Rumplestiltskin, and a Savior named Emma. But dismissing the moral and ethical implications because “it’s just a TV show” rankles me, right up with “why do you keep watching?” It is a TV show but TV shows hold mirrors up to society and tell us what we value, what we should value, how we treat everyone from men to women to PoC to the LGBT community. It is not sui generis. It does not exist in a bubble. It has a context; and that context is our own society and morals. Which brings me to….
But in that particular moment, I don’t think we were supposed to think of it as romantic, Emma certainly didn’t
And yet so many CSers do/did. I can assure you of that. They found it swoon worthy, made sexual jokes themselves and even manips in which Hook and Emma were having sex with the lines being repeated. I take it you don’t have much of an inroad with the fandom at large? Or are just now getting your feet wet? I can assure you that much romanticizing was made from that line.
They make that line as an evidence that CS was planned from the start! LOL, if anything it proves the opposite.
"All your questions are pointless"
No he hasn’t! Show me where Hook ever said he was sorry for that line, for what he did, for leaving Emma and Snow in jail to die. He was never made to apologize; it was just “he’s a hero now!” from the writers.
Well hasn’t he apologized for his past actions and said he isn’t that man anymore? I looped everything he did back then under that category. They can’t apologize for every line. I just felt like Hook had to convince her that he was turning over a new leaf and not just trying to get with her. And I thought he had done that. Whether it was believable or not is certainly up for debate. And even so, we can disagree on Hook’s redemption arc or what have you. I don’t think they’ve done the best job myself. But at the time, when he said it, and he was a clear villain, I don’t understand how that can be offensive. That would be like being offended that Cruella manipulated dogs to eat her mother or whatever. Animal cruelty! But she was a horrible person. They do or say horrible things.
I don’t remember that he apologized about anything other than attacking Belle, which went like this:
Hook/Regina: I need your help with something.
Belle: why would I help you? You hurt me *angry sad*.
Hook/Regina: well then I guess I’m sorry?
Belle: Fine. What do you need me to do?
And the excuse about being a villain might be used on season 2/flashback, and the excuse about the darkness might be used in 5A, but you can’t excuse the fact he lied in 317 about helping Ariel (which again was forgotten and weren’t addressed), you can’t excuse the fact that instead of doing the right thing and tell Belle about the fake dagger, he decided to blackmail Rumple on her expense and the apprentice he put in the hat (yet again he wasn’t confronted, yet again he admitted but it ment nothing cause no one heard it and everyone blamed Rumple).
"All your questions are pointless"
The writers depiction of redemption is forget about the horrible things in the past and have everyone around you encourage you and tell you what a great person you are.
Regina was never confronted about Graham because it would would make her seem bad to the fans when she is a fan favorite and she needs to keep being that way cause ratings.
Hook was never confronted about the many horrible things he did in the past, S2,3B,4A,5A cause it would make gim seem bad to the fans when he is a fan favorite and he needs to keep being that way cause ratings.
Which is a shame cause bringing a character to a confrontation about the bad things they did creates great scenes and great drama (e.g. Emma and Neal bar scene in 214). Characters can have flaws, characters can do make mistakes, that’s what makes them interesting. But there is no point if they are not confronted about it, everything is forgotten and everyone is happy. Redemption is not just forget about the past and doing good things, it’s about atonement, making amends and earning forgiveness.
I can say that Hook scene with Emma on the Jolly Roger in 503 was great because he finaly admitted that he was wrong going after Rumple’s wife, breaking a family and being the villain. Unfortunately, that scene means nothing if he doesn’t act upon this conffesion, if he doesn’t make amends with Rumple. Instead they chose to go back to that stupid revenge that became irrelevant cause nobody cares about Milah anymore.
A better plot for Regina in season 4 would have been realizing, through Marian, that Snow wasn’t the only one who got hurt by her, that there were other people. Instead of blaming the author about everything she did and whine about not getting a happy ending, they should have shown her helping the people she hurt getting their happy endings instead.
The writers for some reason don’t affraid to show the characters doing horrible things, but affraid to confront them about it cause then they are directly telling the viewers that what this character is bad and they are affraid that the viewers would be put off by that.
"All your questions are pointless"
You would think though that A&E, hearing that some people find CS to be problematic which isn’t their intention, would actually take a closer look at the relationship to find out why people are interpreting it that way in order to amend it. Some of the things Hook says are awful. Is that intentional or just bad writing? Because saying how you would send a woman back to her husband as “soiled” is in no way defensible. There is no way that comment could be interpreted as anything but offensive. How can the writers be so blind? You want a character to be “evil” and try and break a character’s spirit, fine, but there is a line. It’s called a “moral event horizon”. Basically, if you want your villain to be redeemable, they absolutely must not cross that line. Once they do they’re past the point of no return. IMO Hook has crossed that line. Not only for how he went for real personal attacks on Emma but for the “soiled” comment about Milah. What doesn’t help Hook’s case is that we’ve seen a DO in love with someone through the RumBelle relationship. Rumple has done some underhanded things but he’s never gone for personal attacks on Belle, he’s never described the woman he loved as “soiled”. A character like Zelena could get away with saying those thing because she has no close connection with Emma. But for Hook so say those things is just plain wrong.
Hook crossed that line when he beat Belle and sexually harassed every woman on the show. If you supposedly “plan” for the villain to be the main love interest of your main heroine, it’s best that his initial behavior won’t be despicable.
"All your questions are pointless"
Emma truly feels like it’s her fault that Hook did those things as the DO (he did tell her not to make him one), and she truly feels what he said and did as the DO was not his fault and that it was simply the darkness.What you depicted here is the “battered wife syndrom”. She did something that pissed off her boyfriend, and he becomes violent towards her or other people, instead of putting the blame on him, she blames herself for making him angry. This is a syndrom that is common in abusive relationship. (Speaking on Buffy, they did an episode about it -304)
I don’t care what they writers intended for it to be, I don’t think they even put any thought to it. I’m calling what I saw on screen, what other people saw and what younger people see as a relationship that the show depicts as ideal.
"All your questions are pointless"
The only way “The darkness made him do it” excuse works is if the show applies across the board. But they don’t. For Rumple, he is simply a bad man. It’s never “yes, he tortured Robin Hood, but the darkness made him do it because that’s how insidious it is.” It’s “Rumple is power obsessed and can’t give up his grip on the darkness.” But for Hook it’s “he didn’t mean to almost kill all of Emma’s family and send them to hell. The darkness made him do it.” It’s very much a double standard but with Hook, like you said, it gets washed away in order to sell the narrative that he’s a good guy.
Don’t forget that Hook didn’t want the darkness because he knew how it would affect him. Rumple keeps going back to it willingly. And I think it’s safe to say that Rumple changed a lot once he became the dark one. The darkness obviously affected him. He went from being a coward, but otherwise a good father, to not only a coward, but a ruthless human being. And obviously the darkness changed Nimue too. I think it’s decently documented how the darkness changes people. So I didn’t have as big of a problem with Hook’s fast dark turn at the end of season 5a as others did. It was rushed, yes, but I was OK with it. There were far bigger issues I had at the end there than that. That’s all I’ll say haha.
I had a lot of problems with it.
1. Regina just saying “It will create another dark one” without the why and how is not a good enough explanation for me.
2. The fact that he was the dark one only when he was told and there is no indication for it bothers me because it is just a cheap shock value twist, it is obvious that it wasn’t planned to be that way, mainly because all the dropped plot points from the early episodes- Emma’s “You failed me”, Regina being the savior. That twist also show that the darkness didn’t affect him and it was his actions. If the darkness had affected him, it would have affected him from the beginning of the season and not when it is convenient. This twist was not planned and it has abc written all over it.
"All your questions are pointless"
The show clearly tries to be Buffy so hard. I would like to add more points.
In “Buffy”, after she sends Angel to hell and he comes back, her friends, understandably, weren’t supportive of their relationship because Angel tried to kill them all, as well as with her relationship with Spike. The characters in “Buffy” weren’t affraid to call Buffy out on her problematic relationship. Something that OUAT is affraid to do because then it would point out all the flaws of Emma and Hook relationship and enable viewership to think if that relationship is problematic. It is something I saw with Regina and Robin relationship when Regina admitted to Snow that she had adulterous sex with Robin, and Snow, instead of saying “This is wrong”, encouraged her.
Which is why the characters in OUAT seems so unrelatable, because they don’t act as what normal people would in those situation, and I’m tired of the excuse that this is a fantasy show, that this isn’t real. The point is that characters should have real emotions and real reactions in a fantasy setting.
OUAT could never be like Buffy even if it wanted to because Buffy is a character driven show. Everything that happens has a goal to serve the characters and develop them as opposed to OUAT where characters have become templates to drop plot on them that won’t affect them and won’t develop them. The villains in Buffy never got the depth or the “Grey” like OUAT’s villains cause their whole point is to affect the main characters, these villains are going to be off the show once Buffy defeats them so there is no point in wasting time in order to make them sympathetic or showing the backstory of why they became the way they are.
Even Charmed, which became silly in its later seasons depicted a woman getting out of bad relationship.
I just hope for a conversation between Emma and Snow, in which Emma tells her that what she and Hook had wasn’t love, that she was weak and tried to fill the hole in her heart, which was created after Neal died and Hook was easy, it was easy to be in a relationship with him, that she couldn’t lose Hook cause losing him ment that she’ll return back to the hole that was created after Neal died. Hook was a distraction from realizing the lost love with Neal, which will make sense cause in 5A there were moments where I thought that that is what they try to do such as Henry using the song, Emma cries with a dreamcather in her hand, Emma deflecting Zelena when she said “I killed Neal”, trying to avenge him, using Regina’s tear for her loss of Daniel, instead of Emma’s of Neal, which might have worked, Regina trying to bring out the truth from Emma, which later we realize is a commitment issue with Hook that could have been related to Neal, how can she find tallahassee with someone else.
This is just hopeful thinking which I know won’t be true cause “Hook is the best, he’s hot”.
"All your questions are pointless"
