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November 13, 2012 at 9:46 am in reply to: Regina and Rumplestiltskin-Who’s Worse?Can Either Change? #160562beautyistruthParticipant
Well, redemption is a really nebulous term that implies some sort of equal exchange. Do “x” number of good deeds to make up for “x” number of bad deeds. Rehabilitation is far more future-focused.
Belle. Being clever since always 😀
[adrotate group="5"]beautyistruthParticipantPerhaps it was just created by a particularly sorcerer and passed down through murder? I’ve always imagined it to be similar to the Elder Wand in Harry Potter… just more sinister and corrupting.
beautyistruthParticipantI’m trying to figure out what exactly “all magic comes with a price” means. For instance, take the case of Gold giving Henry the amulet without charge. Does that mean he’s shouldering the “price” for Henry?
November 13, 2012 at 9:02 am in reply to: Regina and Rumplestiltskin-Who’s Worse?Can Either Change? #160556beautyistruthParticipantAlso, with full props going to Belle, I’m going to start using the term “rehabilitation” over “redemption.” That to me, is more illustrative of what these two characters are trying to achieve… the ability to develop moral agency and become functioning members of society.
beautyistruthParticipantRumpelstiltskin. Last season it was a pretty close tie between Rumpelstiltskin and Regina, with the female in me letting my attraction push me more towards Rumple’s side simply in terms of being more excited to see him onscreen. Partly though, it’s because he takes on not just so many layers, but so many archetypes. I oftentimes “read” art through archetypes and he falls into so many of them: the scared serf, the papa wolf, the manipulator, the charming Faustian devil, the trickster, the tragic hero, the Bryonic… he makes the literature geek in me go into overdrive trying to analyze him. Carlyle has also never missed a beat in acting him in all dimensions.
Regina -was- interested until this season started painting her as a weak-willed, emotionally manipulated girl who apparently let herself get played by everybody even slightly affably evil. Which… is perfectly valid, but not the type of character I feel for. I’m pretty sure that she’ll get more development and I’ll like her again, but right now, I miss my badass, leather-wearing, kingdom-running evil Queen 🙂 Cora had better make more appearances, and soon.
November 13, 2012 at 6:36 am in reply to: Regina and Rumplestiltskin-Who’s Worse?Can Either Change? #160546beautyistruthParticipantOne thing that struck me, and I’d really love to hear everybody thoughts on this.
There was quite a noticeable reaction of general horror when Rumple killed Milah in the Crocodile. Fair enough. Killing your ex-wife in a fit of anger is really, really bad. Now, I wasn’t part of the online fandom when “Forbidden Fruit” came out, but retrospectively, it doesn’t seem like there was near the amount of horror when Regina emotionally manipulated the genie to murder Leopold. In fact, (and I don’t agree with this at all), quite a few Evil Regals seemed to cheer her on as the tragic, wronged woman who killed her chauvinist pig of a husband.
Even though I know Evil Regals are in the extreme, I do wonder why the fandom in general never seem to cite that moment as a particularly evil moment for Regina, wheres the moment in “The Crocodile” tends to get cited as one of Rumple’s worst moments. Why is that? Sure, Leopold was pretty emotionally absent with Regina, but surely that is nothing compared to how emotionally abusive Milah was to Rumple (and yes, I would make the argument that her treatment of her husband was emotionally abusive. Again, that is not to say that he was justified). Additionally, Rumple’s murder was pretty definitively a passion crime, wheres Regina’s was a premeditated murder. While neither of them are justified, the latter tends to get more harshly punished legally, at least. So, it surprised me that I haven’t once heard Regina’s murder cited as a one of her particularly bad moments.
I mean, ultimately, I don’t think it matters to the plot which of the two is worse… I’ve rambled on about my hope for redemption for both for quite a while. I am, however, interested in exploring why Rumple’s murder gets so much more of a reaction than Regina’s. I have a suspicion that gender bias plays a role in it, which annoys me greatly. Viewers are conditioned to place women in the victim archetype and men in the aggressor archetype, even when the show deliberately subverts that stereotype. Thus, when a man harms a woman, everybody flips out. Wheres when a woman harms a man, no matter how undeserved, the reaction is less intense. That annoys me because you can’t claim gender equality and have that double standard. Maybe I’m wrong, though. Maybe there was a reaction when that episode came out and it has since died down.
Somebody who has been around since then weigh in, please?
On kind of a tangent (since I’ve gotten into the topic of gender biases and this is sort of a pet interest of mine), I’d be willing to bet that the reactions to Rumple killing Milah would have been much more subdued had the genders been flipped. Imagine, since apparently that kingdom was drafting girls as well, that Milah had run away from the war to come home to her husband and child, only to have her husband berate her for being a coward, run off to flirt with women in the tavern and ignore their child. And then publicly insult her, in front of the women he’s flirting with, when she goes to the tavern to ask him to come home. Actually, for the heck of it, imagine if she had made him a cup of tea after that bit of public humiliation, just because I’m sure everybody would have loved that. And suppose he disappears on her and her child. Now imagine Milah had become the Dark One, found her husband, had the duel and the entire magic bean exchange, and he tells he never loved her, in front of the people he abandoned her for. If, at that point, she rips out his heart in anger, I honestly think some people would have cheered. I’m sure people would have eventually agreed that she wasn’t justified, but I don’t think the reaction would have been the same, horrified “holy **** what just happened!?!” reaction.
beautyistruthParticipantBleh, my heart is going to break when I find out that Neal isn’t Baelfire and the SwanFire ship is sunk 🙁
beautyistruthParticipantJust realized that Emma doesn’t know that Regina killed Graham. Now I really want that to get revealed! That will add an interesting dynamic to the battle over Henry.
Anyways, I almost want Hook and Emma together now, if for nothing else to see how Emma deals with Hook’s revenge plot. Is she going to take the moral high ground, or will she turn a blind eye? It’s been such a common theme through the narrative thus far that revenge should not be sought, even if the other person has wronged you terribly. We’ve seen this with Belle, Rumple and Regina, and also with Charming, Evil Snow and Regina. I wonder what’s going to happen with Emma, Hook and Rumple!
beautyistruthParticipantI just realized that between him turning things to gold and Rumple making gold, the two of them are going to cause ridiculous economic inflation…
beautyistruthParticipantInteresting question, If Emma/Hook do end up together, will Emma pull a Belle and tell Hook not to seek revenge on Rumple? Should she?
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