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š RG I can’t read the article right now, but… people are stupid.
Ranisha, yeah, she said that (or a line that was very similar.)
[adrotate group="5"]Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...
Lol RG.
Astra! Welcome back! You are missed.
Was randomly pondering Lily’s star this morning. I still really like the Tiger Lily idea posted above (and it would go well with AH’s nospoilers about Henry’s pic, from an arc that’s already passed. And linking it to SSTTR would make a lot of sense in that manner.) But I also was thinking about how Emma’s flower was a subconscious tie to her family. Maybe Lily’s star has some sort of tie to the darned hat? It’s got the crescent moon and stars on it…
I know, I know, I’m trying to analyze a show that has lost all rhyme and reason :p
Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...
Uh oh Heather. That sounds like a challenge.
(Ponders photo ops involving the thing that sits across from the Scrambler ;))
Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...
I admit to having these sorts of doubts, too. Itās the main chink in my armor. I heard that line from Elsa and thought, oh gosh darn it. Does that mean that Emma will be encourage to forgive Hook for lying to her in a way I expect Belle ultimately, almost assuredly will forgive Rumple for lying to her? More than likely, yes, but thereās always the chance, no (however slim).
I’ve been wondering, in my head, the difference between why I not only think Belle will forgive Rumple, but am okay with it, and the CS thing – and I think ultimately it boils down to WHO these women think these men are. They are both lying to their significant others – yes. But in Belle’s case, she KNOWS who Rumple is, KNOWS that he is capable of this, and has made the decision to love him anyways. With Emma, she’s with Hook because she thinks he’s changed, because he’s claimed NOT to be that person. She hasn’t said, “You’re a pirate and you do crappy stuff and I’ll date you anyways.” So there’s a whole other level of deception there and I think that’s the deliniation.
The thing that has always bugged me the most about the whole CSF drama was that if Emma overlook Hook for leaving her dead in Rumpleās magical jail cell, then why not Neal? I think Emma ultimately did forgive Neal, and they eventually wouldāve reconciled and potentially even gotten their second chance had it not been for Nealās death in favor of making CS happen.
The scene in the woods in 315 to me always makes the song “I Forgive You” start playing in my head – I posted some of the lyrics a few pages back – it just fits them so well and it truly was the feeling of that scene, even as it wasn’t said. I think part of that was accelerated to give that feeling of okayness to make his death more bittersweet, definitely. It’s hard when there never was a scene to talk through all of that, but even his few words to her on the beach about the subject clearly made a big difference – after that was the ILY at the portal, Echo Cave, her being open to lunch (upon persuasian) and the bittersweet goodbye at the town line and 315. So I agree that ultimately there was forgiveness, and maybe that’s what made that moment so poignant on Sunday night, she ultimately got over what had been holding her back but never got the chance to choose to act on it.
Does she even remember being left in Rumple’s magical cell? Most days, I feel like she’s forgotten it even happened.
Then when I look deeper into why it was so difficult for Emma to forgive Neal, is precisely because he was her true love, and she let him in. She let down her walls for Neal and got burned (even though she knows now that Neal ultimately did it to get her home).
The deeper the trust, the deeper the betrayal. So yeah, absolutely, if she hadn’t let him in like that he couldn’t have hurt her so badly. For someone who has had so few people to rely on in life, to have been screwed over so grandly by the person she trusted probably more than she’s trusted anyone before or since, obviously forgiving that is enormous. And it’s because of the enormity of love required for that forgiveness that it makes for such a marvelous love story, but alas, hotness trumps stories of love and forgiveness.
My personal headcanon, post-322, was that the reason she allowed Hook in is precisely because she knows not to trust him. There is a layer there, where she can date him – like she dated whomever between Neal and… Graham? Walsh? – and just expect to end up heartbroken. That’s not really what they’ve shown in S4 so far but to me, it made a lot of sense post-Rumple at the portal for her to choose someone who had no potential to break her heart the way Neal had (in abandonment and then in death) because he had no potential to love her the way that Neal had. *shrug* It’s a deeply psychological, screwed up message, but to subconsciously choose the wrong person BECAUSE they’re the wrong person would be a legitimate story to tell, particularly on the heels of that loss.
Oh, I no longer think SF could be end-game since MRJ has left and I donāt think heās coming back. The only way I could see it ever happening would be if MRJ made a guest appearance in the very last episode of the very last season. (Very HIMYM kind of ending)
I could see it happening in a very finite fashion – last episode of the last season or even last small arc (5-6 episodes, with a predetermined plotline to finish out the story they started to tell.) I don’t expect him back on an ongoing basis, certainly. But to serve as Emma’s HEA, I think it’s a possibility.
Guess it’ll just be me and Phee over here in this cave of crazy talk :p
Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...
So I struggle with whether to debate about all of this but then, what is the point of having discussion if we canāt really discuss it?
PLEASE debate it. Donāt ever let me and my feelings stop you. PLEASE do. I am more than capable of not responding. Besides. Weāre friends. Thatās what we do.
It’s not a you issue, it’s a me issue. You are certainly not the only one who was given false hope last season – several of us did it to each other and we drug those of you who were like “ain’t gonna happen” along unwittingly. So my lack of wanting to debate doesn’t stem from not wanting to dialogue with you but rather hating to plant seeds of false hope where there is no hope of them blossoming and causing wounds to reopen! Make sense?
Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...
RG is the all seeing fairy of the forums
she knows all, sees all, its accepted v_v
See, I have history (in other fandoms) of knowing folks who DO end up with random “ins” or “sources” so it really wasn’t that insane of a question on my end. It’s so normal for me in fanning that I didn’t even think to disclaimer my question with that :p
As far as CS, I think there’s a big difference between allowing actions as a fan and writing those actions. A&E may write “whatever they want” and know that the Hook fans will whitewash it, but when they sit down to write an episode, it’s a blank slate. When they sat down to write 317 and Hook’s backstory of the lost year, they COULD have written him as having changed due to his time spent with Emma. They didn’t go, “Oh, Hook murdered, how do we justify that,” as the fans did, they said, “What did Hook do during the lost year? Oh, he killed a guy.” The things we see onscreen are the things they intentionally choose to show us about a character, and the things they are choosing to reveal about Hook’s character are consistently the opposite of what Emma would want if she was privy to them.
Hook has sooooooo many secrets from her – Milah, Bae/Pan, Blackbeard, teaching Henry to cheat, the cursed hand, Will, etc – and I continue to maintain they have built the story that way for a reason. In all honesty, my default is the assumption that they’re going CS because that’s what logic says (despite my gut disagreeing,) but time and time and time again since 316 I’ve been surprised and what they’ve *not* done to build them as a duo and what they *have* done to undermine them. If they are writing them as an endgame, TL ship, why would you undermine them so? I look at it in more of a writing pattern/trope fashion and I just keep going back to, this is not how you write a Ross and Rachel, this is not how you write a Meredith and Derek, this is not how you write a Cory and Topenga. They all had issues and they all screwed up but none of them went behind the other one’s back and just undermined the core trust of the relationship – repeatedly and consistently. Screwing up ONE time and then building a story around hiding that error and the lie piling on is far different than a clear and consistent pattern of making choices that are not only/just poor but really contrary to the core of the other one’s character.
Maybe I’ve spent too much time shipping in my life, I dunno, but I just don’t see them writing this ship in the way you do to build permanancy. Rather, I see it written like you write a Rachel and Joey – it is to serve a purpose, for a time, and then it is done.
Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...
And you’re totally in the right for that, RG. I feel SO guilty over the latter half of 3B… what’s that Emma quote about false hope being worse than no hope? I HATE that I participated in that.
So I struggle with whether to debate about all of this but then, what is the point of having discussion if we can’t really discuss it? I can say that on my end, I appreciate having people with common sense ground me – just as much as I appreciate others say, “No, I see the same thing you do, you’re not insane.” It keeps me in the center of where I need to be – not abandoning all hope but not assuming that righting the ship is the foregone conclusion.
I think we talked after 322 (at least Phee did, and I think maybe Slurpeez too) about continuing to watch the show as if SF was endgame, and for me, it’s what I need to do to keep watching. What’s frightening, maybe, is that it’s so easy to find evidence to back that position up. I’m just not totally convinced that our ship is Titanic-sunk, even if it’s taken on a bit of water (and by a bit I mean pretty much the entire ocean.) But I totally and completely acknowledge it could easily be crazy-talk.
Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...
Fair enough. I have enough fanbase history that “know” sometimes literally means KNOW and I figured if anyone would have a super-secret source it would be you :p
I’m not one to debate, though; my gut tells me this story isn’t over and why I feel that way, there is no logical explanation. Maybe it’s just a symptom of my crazy :p
Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...
RG, can I ask, do you know CS is endgame because you believe that’s how they’re writing them and you have no faith in the writers, or do you know because you know through some other means?
Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...
HIMYM is a really good example of the principal I personally believe we may be looking at with Once, which is essentially that once the network has sold their advertising, they are happy to take their hands off of the final product and let the showrunners have their way. So *as long as they know the show will be ending,* I still believe we have an excellent chance to see the story we’d like to see play out. (It gets tricker, if course, if they cancel the show when they’re expecting it to continue.)
Funny how Hook boldly declared heād win Emmaās heart without trickery, yet trickery is at the very heart of the tactics heās using on Emma. Come to think of it, all of Hookās episodes have shown him to be the very opposite of how Hook wants Emma to see him. Hmmmm. Interesting.
It’s this dichotomy that is so strange to me. Ever since they made the decision to “go CS,” almost every writing decision made has been the opposite of what would happen when you want the audience to root for a ‘ship. They have shown MULTIPLE times about his hiding, trickery, and what a poor choice he is as a life mate for Emma. There’s a difference between the subtle “rape culture” issues, which are problematic but not necessarily intentional, and the intentional way in which they’ve portrayed this character. As much as I agree that expecting CS as endgame appears to be inevitable, I look MORE at how they write them and it’s not as an endgame pairing.
If we compare CS to OQ, for example, they both have intrinsic issues which are whitewashed. But what CS has going on, which OQ doesn’t, is that they are continually undermining CS through the writing – Jolly Roger/Blackbeard/cursed lips (“You’ll take everything that makes Emma special,” really?) and now the cursed hand/true personality. OQ doesn’t have that consistent undermining – in the solo scenes, Regina is STILL trying to save Marian, while still pining over Robin. They ARE being written as an endgame ship, and it bothers me but I don’t expect it to be any other way. In contrast, Hook in his scenes is doing things that would be problematic for Emma. That’s a big difference.
Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...
