[dontstopbelievin]

405 was a blinding Emma-shipping mess. I’m only surprised they didn’t trot out Graham. (Maybe that’s why they were at the Sherriff’s?)

I’ve no question that they’re setting Hook up for a fall with respect to Emma. But I’m very of two minds as to what the outcome will be, whether they’ll have Emma forgive him as “character growth” or whether they’ll use it as an excuse to split CS. (I know where the logical bet lies, but I STILL refuse to believe Captain Hook is Emma’s happy ending. Even CS issues aside, it’s just… no.)

I kind of wonder, too… I assumed the worst in terms of Elsa’s encouragement of Emma – that Emma said one someone’s wronged you, they’re toast and Elsa said maybe you should give them another chance (paraphrase) – in that it would play out whenever Hook’s misdeeds come to light. But I suppose it *could* be played in light of that photo – she wouldn’t let Neal in because he’d wronged her once and now she’s regretting that? (Of course, that could still swing back around to CS, with Hook getting the second chance she should’ve given Neal, but now I’m just confusing myself.) Because if it was intended to lend to the Hook story, I would think they would have emphasized that.

[dontstopbelievin]

There 405 moment was gorgeous and wonderful, and here we all sit trying to figure out how they’re conning us and calling it a Jedi Mind Trick. But if that picture hadn’t existed, we’d be even more upset: “look how they constantly sweep Neal aside.”

But compare the “we” who is affected in each instance. The “we” who is going to be upset about how they brush aside/ignore/forget him is like .02% of the fanbase. The GA won’t notice that they don’t bring him up. Conversely, every time “Neal”/my dad/my son/photo/etc is brought up, they are reminded he existed, which is going to effect a much bigger portion of the viewing audience than a lack of mention, kwim?

Their job – if CS is intended endgame – is to sell them to as much of viewing public as possible. If the point in killing Neal off was to remove him from the canvas in order for him not to be an obstacle for CS, then reminding the GA that he existed is really just undermining themselves.

The question is, are they so busy trying to placate every fan group, be everything to everyone, that they don’t even realize that? Or are the reminders intentional?

Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...

[dontstopbelievin]

Yeah, I just have kept hearing about the “new viewers” who “only watch for Frozen” and thereby hadn’t caught up on anything else. At least you can watch the Hook-Rumple stuff and go, “Oh, these guys hate each other,” even if you don’t understand why, but there’s bad blood and that’s clear and they are actual characters. Crying over a random photo of a guy who’s not on the show (and there’s nothing that connects him to the gravestone of several episodes prior) is a bit different, since there’s no identity to the guy-in-the-photo like there is to characters who move around town and interact with each other.

I just think about when we started watching Grey’s – it was a couple of seasons in – and we caught up as we went along. The only real question was, “Who’s Denny?” and figuring all of that out. So maybe I’m projecting. I dunno.

Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...

[dontstopbelievin]

Okay, to follow up on my last post. I had a few other random thoughts about the scene/epi/whatever.

RG –

I agree. I wasn’t horrendously nauseated by them like I normally am, but it’s because the emotional loadstone was coming from just Emma and from her box-o-happiness, the big tipping point of which was Neal.

Yeah… like I said in my letter above, they traded on a genuine emotional touchstone to get there. And honestly, I don’t know how I feel about it, I feel like I should want to rant and rage and whatever but I just… can’t get angry. I don’t have any anger in me today (letter of this morning excepted,) I just have no fight left I guess.

This scene, though, is what I expected starting in 316 or 317. It’s what I anticipated; kill off Neal and then allow CS to bond as Emma grieved to have them in a logical place to get together by 322. If they had put this scene in 317/318, had him be a sensitive friend, THEN I could see her falling for him by 322. I wouldn’t have loved it, but it would have made sense, so much more sense than continuing to emphasize his villainy. I don’t understand why they persist on shoving CS down our throats while undermining their rooting power. Believe it or not, I am not an unreasonable viewer; I can accept a ship that’s not mine (not love it, but accept it,) if you tell the story well and logically. This scene – or a similar scene – placed AFTER his death and BEFORE you shove these two characters together makes a logical bridge. Now, it just smacks of too little, too late.

Another thought I had is that presumably, that photo is the first time Hook – or anyone, really – has seen evidence of SF’s happiness. If we go out on a limb and assume no important conversations happened offscreen, all anyone knows is that Emma loved Neal a lot, they had a relationship serious enough to have Henry and he broke her heart. Every present-day discussion SF had about Tallahassee/we were happy once/etc were private conversations – their conversation on the beach, their conversation in the woods, etc. So Emma’s friends and family don’t know about their time together, the importance of certain things to them – like, with the exception of Rumple (if he even remembers) does the word “Tallahassee” mean anything to anyone else? – or presumably even the watches. One would assume that if she loved him that much there were good times in the past, but no one has actually SEEN it, it’s not like Emma’s one to tell stories where anyone would have seen her light up like a kid at Christmas (or that she would) or that there are lots of old photos or whatever.

If they wrote Hook with a brain – which they won’t – they would connect the moment where he was all, “A smile?” after 2.0 was born and the smile she has in this photo, which is that bright, true grin she ONLY has ever gotten when Neal was around (from their time together in Tallahassee through the walk in the woods in 315.) Because there is a marked difference in her being content – which she has been at times since Hook has known her – and her being HAPPY, which is an Emma Swan rarity. He’s never seen her with true, unbridled happiness, and that should present a conundrum. It won’t. But it should.

And lastly, we’ve talked about so much of this season being geared toward the new viewer… what does the new viewer DO with that? A photo of Emma and a guy, she clearly adores him and is broken up about the photo, no dialogue, if I knew nothing about the show I’d be, “Who is that and what’s THAT story?!” Not sure if I’d be curious enough to go digging, but… I’d be curious, for sure. So it was an interesting choice on that front.

Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...

[dontstopbelievin]

I did just think it was a mood ring, but you’re right, it is awfully similar.

So… is everything in that box SF-related, maybe?

Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...

[dontstopbelievin]

Finally playing catchup in the thread. Forgive the out of sequence responses.

Slurpeez –

Also, I’m going to point out an interesting parallel. Last week we had Will Scarlet carying around a picture of the Red Queen (aka Anastasia), his true love, in his pocket. This week we have Emma holding onto a picture of Neal (her canon true love) in a box. Dare I say neither Will nor Emma has really “moved on”?

I think that’s a really fair thing to say. It’s hard to know, without knowing what’s happened with the Knave, what to do as far as that parallel goes but I agree that it’s definitely there. Everything about Will screams he’s having some issues at the moment, and I think his backstory might shed some light on SF things… especially given the very clear Will-Neal parallel.

Phee –

That reminds me of another thing from this ep. Not only did we have a, “Well that photo existing is technically impossible because no one was there to actually take the photo,” moment with SF, they also had Regina looking at a pic of her and Robin that technically also shouldn’t have existed because it was really just a screencap. As problematic as I find OQ, they do seem to be pretty set in stone as far as the writers are concerned, and here we got a similar pic moment of SF in the same ep as the OQ pic moment.

Also, Regina called Robin her true love… is that the first time they’ve used that term for OQ? I don’t recall hearing it before; they’ve called him her soulmate (and I thought soulmate and TL were supposed to be non-overlapping terms?) and stated that he loves her but TL?

I really hate what they’ve done with OQ because I really want to like them. But I do agree, that is definitely the direction the writers are taking, and it’s odd to see them paralleled with SF. At first I thought they were intended to be a SF parallel, what with Robin the thief and some comments early on in 3B, but then realized they were going for a CSF parallel and OQ would be the CS portion. But who knows, if they are revising their goals then maybe they are revising their parallels too.

Honestly though, I just dunno what they’re trying to imply, because yeah they might be seeming to ram home that SF is an important thing, but at the same time they’re forging ahead with CS at a fast pace. If I had faith in the writers, I’d be willing to go along with the idea you suggested Slurpeez, that it’s painting CS in the unhealthy rebound light. But, the faith, ’tis not there.

The thing for me is that any time they are given the chance, they ram home that SF is an important thing. One of the things that I count myself as SO fortunate about is that when they talk about SF, they talk about it with importance and with reverence. It is never trashed or belittled… I keep waiting for it (to the point that I pep talk myself to expect it before each and every episode) but this was a HUGE opportunity to put it down and they just… didn’t. They continued to maintain that reverence about it, which is really interesting.

(I guess it makes sense if you agree with my theory that A&E haven’t quite let go of the SF story and/or that CS is short-term with SF as the long game, but I know that theory is pretty unpopular around the realms so I’m trying to make sense of this outside of it lol.)

Slurpeez –

I know. I know. I have no faith either. But I love to spin conspiracy theories, which oddly to me don’t sound that crazy, since it feels like I’m folllowing clues which seem to be placed there intentionally. Yet, look where that’s gotten me before….the season 3 finale and the big fat “NOPE!”

I know, right? You and I are on the same wavelength here – as I know we were in 3B. In all honesty, although I was initially derailed, I’m kind of back to the same line of thinking I was in during 3B, just playing it as the long game instead of the short-term fix. It is particularly odd to see the things that cannot be coincidence – last season’s Henry asking for the keys, this season having Will quote Neal’s “It’s all about the tumbl(e)rs” – and ratify in my brain that they literally mean nothing.

One of the things I was curious about at the start of 4A was if those random SF clues that we got the latter half of 3B would continue. After 401 and 402, I settled myself that they weren’t going to, and I was okay with that. But then they’ve started up again, and that’s part of what drives me particularly insane. Are the writers baiting us the way they do the SQ fans? (I mean, I tend to see very very little SQ stuff but last night was pretty over the top… “We’re not partners,” really?!) The thing with the SQers is that they’re a sizable fanbase. I can understand baiting them. And I can honestly understand baiting the SFers if it’s done in a blatant enough way – last night is a good example, even a GA viewer could not have missed what was going on in that scene. (You could’ve heard a pin drop in my apartment.) But some of the other things they do are subtle enough that they’re only picked up by the whole ten of us who ship hardcore and… just, why bother, I guess? It’s like that box, which we’ve only seen in Price of Gold (Emma/SF ep) and her cuddling the blanket like that, which she did in True North (SF ep) and those details are small but *someone* is still writing them in there.

Also, I noticed that they specifically had Hook take Henry sailing in yesterday’s ep. I kind of wonder if that was a nod to the deleted Emma/Henry scene, where he talked about feeling close to his dad when he was out on the boat?

Jo –

Did anyone else notice that in Emma’s box she has a ring that looks just like Gold’s? Not being able to watch it together reallty screwed me up. My animals didn’t care about my revelations or comments.

Totally missed it but wonder if it’s relevant (particularly thinking about 408 here.) I was curious what else was in the box. Think we already deleted the ep off of the DVR, or else I’d slow-mo/pause it. I’m sure someone has, somewhere.

RG –

List of all Tallahassee callback this week:
(sic)
–SF music

Seriously, seriously the music was about to do me in. I didn’t EVER expect to hear that theme again. Is it transferring from SF’s theme to Emma defining home? Or are they intentionally using SF’s theme for some other weird reason…

Slurp –

Neal is a huge part of who Emma is: Tallahassee, the bug, the swan necklace, Henry. I just don’t know what to make of it anymore. I think it was more a remembrance of the important role he played in her life, but I don’t have any real hopes for it being anything more than a nice little nod to the significant role he played in her life. It was a definite SF nod, but that was all it was. A nod. That is what I tell myself, but then again…

Yeah. I just thought that it was interesting that it just so happened to be one of her very few -centrics and they managed to work him in there. It went back to the time before she knew him, so he wasn’t really relevant in that sense (and it’s honestly one of the FIRST things they’ve told us about who Emma was pre-Neal,) but yet they managed to draw him into her centric? I’m not ready to read any huge things into it either, but I felt it was worth a note. I don’t *think* it means anything, but then again, maybe it might.

As of now, I’m sticking to the claim that whatever Emma and Hook share, it’s not true love, similar to the situation between Robin Hood and Marian.

Agreed. I am very very much of the opinion that CS is a “for now” and not an endgame, and they are definitely not a true love situation. (Which doesn’t necessarily mean that SF is endgame either, I just don’t feel that CS is.)

RG –

I said this in my own review, but Emma Swan felt like Emma Swan again. At least a little. And the fact that she spent almost the entire episode sans-Hook says it all to me. And she was the most real when that photo came out of the box.

Yes. Yes, yes, yes. The contrast between 404 and 405 is striking. It’s like they were entirely different characters. And it’s no coincidence that that is directly in proportion to how much the pirate was around.

I will say (as much as it pains me) that the final scene was the most genuine I’ve ever seen CS. I mean, I actually didn’t hate it. But again, it’s no coincidence that the emotional touchpoint of the scene did not revolve around them.

More thoughts on that (and more) later but this is getting long and I gotta go.

Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...

[dontstopbelievin]

I agree with every single bit of criticism but then I rewatch that scene and it was real and somehow the criticisms get turned into “oh but it’s okay cause pain and they tried!”

RG, I think you’re my soul sister on this one. I feel like there are 10,000 things I should pick apart and criticize about that scene and I just… can’t.

It was just a very REAL moment… like an acknowledgement that it DID happen and it WAS real and she DID feel it and it DID hurt, not just some crazy broken promise from the show to fans who over blew a scene or a line or a look. No, these characters did really have a good and loving relationship and it really did all occur, it happened and it mattered and it hurt. It HURT and that SUCKS because it wasn’t supposed to be this way. And maybe even a little bit of she’s not over it so it’s okay that we’re not either.

For such a simple, tiny thing, it was very validating and maybe that’s why it’s effecting me so.

Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...

[dontstopbelievin]

Well, apparently I’m cycling through grief stages at rapid stage (we’ll skip the part where “grieving” over something fictional probably should net me a psych eval.) This morning I’m just… pissed. Actually, frustrated is actually a more accurate word – and I want to come back and talk about that later, when I reply to Slurpeez & Phee’s posts above – but for now, anger will do.

Dear Show,
You picked the pirate. I have no idea what was going through your heads when you did so, but you chose the pirate. That means you give up the right to trot out the richest relationship on the show – the one that you abandoned when you decided to kill off a core character – when you want a heart-felt moment. When potentially the most heart-felt moment of the season includes trotting out the dead guy… that is NOT FREAKING FAIR to those of us who remain attached to that character and relationship. Want an emotionally deep moment with your pet ship? Then figure out how to create it with THEM, not by trading on the story you set up with her True Love.

You want to use that relationship for emotional moments? Then figure out how to bring the dead guy back, and tell THAT story, since it’s the one you initially set out to tell anyways.

Signed,
A very frustrated viewer

Anyways, driving in to work and this song came on… It’s reminded me of SF since their walk in the woods in 3×15 but I heard it today and saw that photo in my head and just… this.

Excerpts –

I forgive you
We were just a couple of kids
Trying to figure out how to live
Doing it our way

I forgive you
We were busy living the dream
Never noticed the glass ceiling falling in on us

More later.

Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...

[dontstopbelievin]

Slurpeez, I have the same questions. We’ve been asking for them to acknowledge his death and they did that so I hesitate to fuss too much, but I agree. What WAS the point? You have 42 minutes, use it wisely. I get having them go through the box to find the camcorder, that was tied to the episode and furthered the plot but randomly throwing SF stuff in there was just random.

Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...

[dontstopbelievin]

So… It just kinda dawned on me. Emma’s only had three centric/backstory episodes – 206, 321/22 and this one. 206 and -21/22 both included Neal flashback scenes. This one didn’t but they still managed to work him in there (in a reverent way nonetheless.) I’m not reading too much into it but… that just seems like it should count for something.

Cause this story needs some mending & a better happy ending...

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