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I won’t dwell because…heh…but I will just point out that he also shot her in The Outsider, 211. That’s why Belle remarks that he tried to kill her, twice.
Ah yes…I don’t think he was trying to kill her. Immediately after it happened, he said “Oh fear not; she’ll live!” It seemed like he fully intended to shoot her only so she’d fall over the line and forget Rumple. (Not that that’s okay, of course! As far as I’m concerned, he still has a lot of work to do to make amends to Belle at this point. However, I don’t see the two of them hanging out a lot since she’s married to someone he hates with a passion.)
They did agree to a duel, but Blackbeard lost and was already defeated. Hook killed him (yes he died, the bubbly sharks ate him) to get back his ship.
Well sure, but Blackbeard told him to “finish it!” It seemed to me that they both went in with the full understanding that this was a fight to the death…I mean it still wasn’t the right thing to do, but I understand it. Oh, and I say “might have” for two reasons–first of all, Ariel went right in after him and I think it would’ve been smart of her to save him and get him to tell her where Eric was, although I guess Zelena said she just went and looked for him? I don’t remember for sure. Secondly, I like the popular theory that it was Blackbeard to whom Hook traded the Jolly Roger for the bean–mostly just because as far as I can recall, he’s the only person who we know wanted the ship pretty badly. Also he did show up again in 321, like they didn’t want us to forget about him. Or they just thought it was fun to have someone look and dress like Disney’s Captain Hook again. Also though…why the heck were those sharks so bubbly? Haha.
[adrotate group="5"]First of all redemption is subjective it will never mean the same thing for two people regardless. Most of the terrible things Regina has done that Epona mentioned were committed during the first season of OUAT when Regina was the Evil Queen, since then it is undoubtable that she is ‘trying’ in some way to be a better person like when she was able to use light magic so in that sense is she all bad with no good at all in any way.
So…they were committed two years ago, so they don’t matter? She’s never taken responsibility for them and she straight-up doesn’t regret them! Trying (at least when people are looking) to be a better person doesn’t mean much when she’s never apologized or expressed any kind of understanding why what she did before was wrong. And look at how she is when no one’s watching, how she treated Sidney in this most recent episode…that doesn’t seem like she’s even trying anymore. We’ve at least seen some semblance of regret from both Rumple and Hook during their pretty heartfelt apologies to Bae and “Ariel” respectively, and in their actions as well.
Let us not forget the other main villain (of sorts) in this show Hook. The writers have shown a great deal of change and goodness in Regina and Rumple, in Hook it appears to me as if they have barely or partially shown any of this and have decided to fast forward his redemption and just hand him his happy ending on a golden plate. We have not really seen him go through the turmoil Regina and Rumple have experienced and it very much irritates me as it would be good to have an insight into that side of Hook’s character which I think has been skipped.
Well this should spark quite a bit of debate, haha. My view of this is that first of all, Hook’s crimes weren’t remotely on the same level as either Rumple’s or Regina’s. Unless I’m forgetting something, the only actual murders we’ve seen from him are the two guards in Regina’s castle in 209 (and from what we’ve seen of Regina’s black knights, they were pretty horrible people). He might’ve killed Blackbeard (no body though), but that wasn’t just an unprovoked murder; they both agreed to a duel. The worst thing he did, IMO, was hit Belle and almost kill her in 209. But of course she didn’t actually die, so there’s that, and he technically apologized in 315 (admittedly it was a lousy apology, more of a question than a statement) but then he did follow through and stick around to defend her right after that.
And let’s talk motivation–I honestly cannot blame the guy for wanting to get some kind of justice for the woman he loved, who was murdered by the same man who then permanently maimed him and suffered no consequences. Not that he went about it the right way of course, but at least I can understand and sympathize more with that than, say, choosing power over your son and then throwing an entire group of people under the bus to undo your mistake or blaming a child for something that was not remotely her fault and spending the next who-kn0ws-how-many years tormenting her. And while he did some awful things in pursuit of said revenge, he didn’t murder entire villages or create or cast curses that “devastated an entire population”.
And as for actually demonstrating regret, let’s see…pretty much all of his actions from the end of 222 through Neverland involved him making great personal sacrifices and taking huge risks in order to save a child he didn’t even know in an effort to make amends for wrongs against both Bae and Emma. Of course we did see some backsliding in the EF, in that whole thing with Ariel and Blackbeard. Now personally I don’t understand that situation; it makes no sense at all. But without getting in to that, he gave “Ariel” one of the most heartbreaking and sincere apologies we’ve seen on the show (for not agreeing to give up literally everything he had and most likely the possibility of rebuilding in order to save a stranger’s boyfriend when, it turns out, said stranger was capable of saving him herself all along…right, sorry I couldn’t resist getting into it a bit), which somehow led to his being cursed (another issue I have: how is confessing to something, then apologizing and wishing you could take it back “selfish”?)
So most of that seemed like a fair amount of turmoil to me (and if speculation/rumors are true, there’ll be some more “turmoil” coming up when he and Rumple are at odds with each other again). And he doesn’t exactly have a happy ending at the moment either. So to sum up…it’s far easier for me to accept Hook as having turned around because (a) he has done far fewer and far less severe acts of “villainy” and (b) he has consistently expressed remorse in both words and actions. I guess I see Rumple as farther along the road than Regina because at least he has started to take a bit of responsibility for what he’s done (although apparently he still feels justified in having murdered his wife and mother of his son because she hurt his feelings; I’ve seen no inkling of acknowledgement at all that that was wrong.) With Regina I get no sense that she even believes that her past actions were wrong at all, just that she was and is misunderstood and thinks that everyone she’s done immense and irreversible harm to should forgive her (you know, just like how she forgave Snow for being duped by Cora and doing what she actually thought was right by Regina. Oh wait…)
Wow…..Just…..Wow….Reading All The Recent Posts About Regina Has Me Like:
DEAR STORYBROOKE/Once Fandom:
Hmm, yes, lots of posts…here are two points from mine (plus a new one) that I think are some of the most important (and most concrete):
1. She said she was planning on “getting rid of a baby”, not just “getting” her or something. That absolutely means kill her. That doesn’t seem like much of a “soft spot for children”.
2. In the most recent episode, she just waltzes right on in to Sidney’s cell. She’d apparently forgotten about him, but instead of apologizing or admitting that she never did care about him, she encourages his unrequited affections and uses him for her own ends (despite his protests at being put back in the mirror). That all seems very “Evil Queen”.
3. You said she can’t regret any of the things she’s done before she got Henry because that would be like saying she regrets having gotten him at all (which I don’t agree with, but that’s not the point). But what about what she’s done since getting Henry? Why can’t/couldn’t she regret those things? She’s done some awful things since then too–how about gaslighting and alienating Henry and trying to murder people he loved? How about murdering Graham? How about conspiring to have Kathryn Nolan murdered (she thought) and framing Mary Margaret for her murder? Separating Hansel and Gretel for no reason, and sending them and Emma out of town knowing full well that the curse would hurt them if they tried that? Helping her mother almost get Rumple’s dagger so she’d become the Dark One? And that’s only a few things off the top of my head…Why doesn’t she regret any of that?! Even if she said she wanted to take any of those things back, she’d still have Henry. And in fact, he’d be a lot happier.
I just can’t see how one can be redeemed when one refuses to admit to having done terrible things and take responsibility for them, I suppose.
Regina’s redemption for me starts with the apologies we’re seeing from her–she has apologized to Henry for making him feel like he was crazy and lying to him before the curse was broken, to Emma, to Belle, and come to a sort of understanding with Snow at last.
When did she apologize to Emma? I promise I’m not being snarky; I just don’t remember that…
Snow White never thinks of consequences, and the apple didn’t fall too far from the tree with Emma…
But you think Regina DOES think of consequences?! She’s always pitying herself for having to deal with consequences of the terrible things she’s done. The first example that comes to mind is having Henry choose to stay with David at the beginning of season two…that’s a consequence of Regina’s having cast the curse in the first place, using Henry to fill the hole in her heart with no regard for his feelings or mental well-being, nearly strangling David after Emma and Snow went through Jefferson’s hat by mistake. And there are many more examples I’ve already mentioned…such as, I don’t know, having Marian murdered in the original timeline.
Helping her mother murder Johanna?
Actually she didn’t help her mother murder Johanna, Cora did that on her own. On the other hand she did help Cora kidnapped and threatened Johanna life. Regina has done alot of terrible things, but let us accuse of her of the crime she did commit.
Fair point, but that’s why I said “help”…if Cora hadn’t kidnapped and threatened Johanna, she wouldn’t have killed her–Regina helped to get to that situation. Regardless though, the point still stands even without that charge!
So I just read the first half and sort of skimmed the second half of that meta that Epona linked to and whilst I do agree that CS isn’t rape culture, there are some points I disagree with, mainly within the season 2 stuff.
1. The “When I jab you with my sword, you’ll feel it” line. I can see how that particular line could be interpreted as a little on the sexually threatening side. I’m not saying it is as each individual line doesn’t throw up any “red flags”, however, when it is preceded by the “normally I prefer to do more enjoyable activities with a woman on her back” line, the context it is said in becomes more sexualised. The issue people have with the “When I jab you with my sword, you’ll feel it” line isn’t with the “jab” which the metawriter seems to think, it’s with the “sword”. People are interpreting “sword” as a euphemism for penis. Also the situation that the line was said in wasn’t ideal. It wasn’t a relaxed atmosphere, it was combative, Emma and Hook were battling to “win”, etc. Also I think part of it is to do with the perception of both male and female characters within the media. For example, you are more likely to see women represented as victims of men in the media rather than vice versa. So in a situation where Emma is on her back which is considered a submissive position whilst Killian is “on top” in what is considered the “dominant” position and making the innuendo, I can see why people may see him as being sexually threatening towards Emma. On a side note, the entire Alien film franchise is built on the premise of male rape and sexual threat. It is what makes the films more scary than your average slasher film.
I think the point wasn’t about misinterpreting “jab” or “sword” (obviously a euphemism, yes), more about whether it was about consensual sex or rape. Honestly, I don’t know exactly what that’s supposed to mean–how is that “a bit of advice”? That’s not advice; it’s just a statement.
2. Where did the writer get the idea that Milah worked in a tavern? I don’t recall that being said in-show. Milah spent a lot of her time at the tavern but that’s probably because that was the one place where she wasn’t made to feel like a pariah. Taverns didn’t care who you were so long as you continued to drink and spend your money.
Agreed–I was going to say that when I posted the link, but I didn’t feel like getting into it then. I don’t think she worked in the tavern; she went there to escape her miserable home life.
3. I strongly disagree that “Rumple punishes Hook further by not killing him so Hook decides to remove Belle from him by shooting her in the shoulder”. What Hook did to Belle was just plain wrong. He didn’t just shoot her in the shoulder, he took away her memories, he took away her IDENTITY. I had no problem with Hook stabbing Rumple in 215 (I didn’t like it but I had no problem with it). Rumple wasn’t “punishing” Hook by not killing him, Rumple would’ve happily killed him, Rumple was trying to show Belle that he did have good in him and that she wasn’t wrong. Belle was encouraging Rumple to do the right thing, yeah she may have been more Rumple focussed, but Hook had tried to kill her previously. I noticed in the meta the writer left out the scenes of Hook in Belle’s cell and Hook at the library. If anything, Hook went after Belle unprovoked. Belle hadn’t done anything to Hook so Hook wasn’t actually being “honourable” in his treatment of Belle.
What she’s referring to there is more likely in “The Crocodile” when, after murdering Milah, Rumple tells Killian that death “is not in the cards for you, sonny boy! I want you to suffer like I’ve suffered!” It’s pretty clear throughout most of his early appearances, Hook rather wants to die, but he doesn’t want to go down without having done his best to avenge Milah first.
And I totally agree that he wasn’t being honorable toward Belle at all when he hit and almost killed her in her cell (IMO that’s the worst thing we’ve seen him do) or when he sent her over the town line (after which he, again, expressed a wish to die). The point though wasn’t that those things were okay, just that they weren’t done out of some sense of misogyny or whatever. Rumple murdered the woman he loved, so he wanted to take away the woman Rumple loved–and at least he made sure not to actually kill her at that point even though he nearly did so back before the curse. If Rumple had had someone else he loved…say a male lover, a brother, etc., he would’ve gone after him instead.
I feel that meta kind of tried to whitewash Hook’s past misdeeds a little. I get that the aim of the meta was to prove that Hook doesn’t promote rape-culture and it does achieve that, however it does feel like there is a little whitewashing in there specifically in Hook’s treatment of Belle. We all know I wasn’t Hook’s biggest fan during season 2 but still, he his past misdeeds should be acknowledged alongside Regina’s and Rumple’s.
I probably should’ve lumped this in with the last bit… But anyway, I see what you’re saying, but I suppose for me it’s difficult to compare Rumple and Regina to Hook. He had (to me) the most sympathetic backstory of the three and has committed the least “villainy”. Both of the others have committed multiple (in Regina’s case, many) murders that have had great negative impacts on the show’s protagonists. With Hook, we’ve seen a few attempted or near murders, but nothing close to the scale of the others.
Haha, I do just have to make one comment about the script tease and ‘haters’…apparently they are interpreting it as Hook attempting to buy Emma. That is awesome, just because you really have to be out of your mind to get that from the script tease! Those haters….they used to upset me, now they just make my day with their insanity! Probably not the effect they’re looking for, however….
Yeah, I just love that since what he’s saying is actually in support of Emma’s individual rights as a woman! He’s mocking the old-fashioned idea of a woman being “owned” by her father until she’s transferred to a husband.
@Epona: We didn’t see their bodies, point out their bodies then I’ll believe there were children involved in the massacre! But even still…Whether it’s right or wrong….it was law, and they broke it!
It wasn’t legitimate law though–Snow was the rightful ruler at the time. Also, in that case, Regina didn’t say she’d kill them all if they didn’t give up Snow, she just offered them money and got angry when they refused, THEN just had them killed without giving them a chance to reconsider.
And there was no evidence that Regina would kill Baby Emma…she may have just taken her in as vengeance to Snow. You’re raising your worst enemies daughter….opportunity of a lifetime!
She said she was planning on “getting rid of a baby”, not just “getting” her or something. That absolutely means kill her.
And Regina called Snow “fat” in a more playful manner than insulting. Kinda like how family mess with each other…and it was Snow who called herself a brat. Regina is rebuilding a mother/daughter relationship with Snow White, which is good for S4 I think.
It didn’t seem all that playful to me, although I agree that Snow didn’t seem to be hurt by it. And yes, Snow called herself a brat, but Regina agreed instead of, you know, taking the opportunity to apologize.
Boy we keep going back and forth….
But that’s alright! This is a little fun! I agree! I like debates and I’m genuinely curious about how others see things like this.
6. If Regina regrets any decisions she’s made…then she regrets Henry. And that’s something she does not regret! That’s why she doesn’t regret anything! Had Regina not done what she had done…Emma would have never met Neal, and Henry would never be born! Nine times out of ten, Zelena would have came along and destroyed everything, and actually win because Regina would have no love to pull from to defeat her. And Emma would have been more than likely the baby Zelena would have sacrificed. So in a way, it’s a good thing Regina doesn’t regret anything because it’s how her and her family has survived this long. I know it sounds strange and weird but it’s the truth…it was her having no regrets that helped Regina defeat Pan who would’ve surely killed them all.
First of all, I have no idea what you’re saying with Emma being the baby Zelena would’ve sacrificed…?
Mainly though, what about what she’s done since getting Henry? She’s done some awful things since then too–how about gaslighting and alienating Henry and trying to murder people he loved? How about murdering Graham? How about conspiring to have Kathryn Nolan murdered (she thought) and framing Mary Margaret for her murder? Separating Hansel and Gretel for no reason, and sending them and Emma out of town knowing full well that the curse would hurt them if they tried that? Helping her mother murder Johanna? Helping her mother almost get Rumple’s dagger so she’d become the Dark One? And that’s only a few things off the top of my head…Why doesn’t she regret any of that?! If she wanted to take any of those things back, she’d still have Henry. (And you don’t have to want to take things back to be sorry for having done them and hurt people.)
7. The death of Leopold, you all know how I feel about that, and Regina should NOT have to apologize for killing the man who imprisoned her in a castle, and showed her off as only a trophy wife before locking her back away. Regina could not step foot outside the kingdom unless she was with him, and Leopold knowingly married his ex-fiancée’s daughter, who was three times younger than him, and accepted his ex-fiancée’s answer instead of the woman he was proposing to. Leopold sought out a trophy wife/mother and babysitter for Snow/bed partner. Yes, it may not have been shown, but I’m quite sure by Leopold’s jealousy in the Forbidden Fruit that he didn’t want NO other man after his young, fairest of them all, wife. Leopold may have been a good king, but he was a terrible husband with some sick problems!
First of all, from what we see of Leopold, he’s always been a very good and fair guy. When he came across the genie, he didn’t even wish for anything other than happiness and prosperity for his people! I bet if she had spoken to Leopold alone, without Cora, and explained that she didn’t want to marry him, he’d have understood. Or she could have simply refused to say the vows and stand up to Cora afterward. It’s not Leopold’s fault she gave in to her mother and decided to marry for money and power instead of love. And how do we know she wasn’t lying to the genie about being locked up? We’ve never seen him be unjustifiably mean to anyone, but we’ve seen Regina lie many times. Also, as icky as it is, older men–especially wealthy, royal ones–often married younger women. It wouldn’t have been that unusual or scandalous.
8. And another thing,…..it should be the Charmings who are happy Regina was in a good place, and trying to be good. Because she could have killed them all and been done with the entire situation, and forced Henry to love her with that curse, but Regina decided against it. Regina willingly let Henry go to give him his best chance with the Charming Family, but I can guarantee, all Henry had to do was say he was ready to come home….No Charming or Ally in SB could have held Regina back from her son. And because of Snow White….Regina missed out on her first love which she did not deserve, and actually showed some form of mercy because if Regina really wanted Snow to suffer back in the EF….she could’ve just swiftly killed David and showed Snow the pain she caused her. And for killing Regina’s mother….Snow really deserves another death in her own family if we’re discussing who deserves what, but Regina left it at that, and is moving on. Right now….what Regina deserves, has earned, and long since been denied is a Happily Ever After.
And they could’ve killed her multiple times but they didn’t. The fact that she ended up changing her mind and not murdering an entire town doesn’t say much for her. And she only let Henry go because he wanted to go–her first impulse was to keep him there.
Also, Snow did not kill Daniel! She was a child, and Cora was awfully convincing about not wanting Regina to lose her mother, especially since she had just lost her own mother (to Cora). She honestly thought she was helping Regina. Also, do you really think they would’ve gotten away if it hadn’t been for Snow? Didn’t Cora have border spells set up to grab Regina with tree branches and stuff? Or she could’ve used a locator spell the next day, killed Daniel then, and done the same thing. Blaming that on Snow is completely ridiculous, and Regina only did that because she was afraid of the real culprit.
And how on earth does Snow “deserve another death in her family?” Regina killed one of Snow’s parents (for personal gain) and Snow killed one of Regina’s (who she was more than willing to kill a few weeks prior and in order to defend her family and people).
