[Felie]

I think the main problems with villains such as Zelena and Ingrid and audience perception towards them isn’t their “craziness”, it’s the fact that 11 episodes isn’t enough time to properly flesh them out before the writers move on to the next villain. Whereas we’ve had lots of flashbacks for Regina and Rumple, so we can sympathise with them more, the lack of backstory for Zelena and Ingrid means we sympathise with them less.

I agree with you when it comes to Zelena’s back-story, but Ingrid has, imo at least, been fleshed out rather well – we know (and more importantly; understand) exactly why she is the way she is, and why she’s motivated to do the things she’s doing – something we unfortunately didn’t get with Zelena. Even though the writers decided to go down the whole ‘all I want is love’ route, I think they’ve done a really good job telling Ingrid’s story so far.

If you don’t have a ton of sympathy for a woman who spent most of her life feeling like a dangerous ‘freak’, was isolated and alone, accidentally killed one of her sisters, was betrayed by her other sister, and spent 30 years in isolation to dwell on all this, then… I don’t know what to tell you. Tbh, I’m actually really surprised they gave her such a heart-breaking past considering they’re probably just going to kill her/send her into an unknown void of doom… for a show all about hope there sure doesn’t seem to be any left for Ingrid, or Zelena for that matter.

Zelena obviously had issues. She latched onto people that were seemingly nice to her, but the moment she felt they had “betrayed” her, she’d go out of her way to make them pay. I dislike Zelena for her treatment of Rumple but there wasn’t really anything in her character to sympathise with. She was gone after 9 episodes and so why bother getting invested in her character. The only time I felt sorry for her was in Oz when the witches let Dorothy sit in her chair (Like seriously, was there a chair shortage in Oz or something?) Zelena had potential especially with the mental health issues side of things, but her whole character seemed to be just written off as “yeah, she’s crazy” rather than exploring those issues.

One of my biggest gripes when it comes to Zelena is all the – glaringly obvious –wasted potential she had as a villain. And you’re right to point out that when a short term character is badly written then it’s very unlikely that the audience will take to them, especially if the person is a villain (I quite liked her though ;P). As for your ‘exploring those issues’ comment goes, I really have zero interest in the Once writers tackling such a delicate issue, especially after witnessing their severe lack of tact with the issue so far –  akin to asking an elephant to take care of a Ming vase; it probably won’t end too well. 

[Felie]

I agree with you, but the writers will likely just end/stop Ingrid and not do anything as far as helping her. And I think that’s a problem when it happens to every single villain on this show–well, the seasonal arc ones.

Well said RG, thanks!

Yeah; when it becomes a pattern, it becomes a problem.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

Felie wrote:

Are we expected to root for [Ingrid’s] downfall? Because all I see is a desperate character who needs to be helped as well as stopped, but I fear the writers won’t let her live to receive the help she needs.

Ingrid needs to be helped as well as stopped, but the town of several tens of thousands just needs for Ingrid to be stopped. Sensitivity isn’t a priority to the victims and their protectors when a mad(wo)man is holding a gun and is using it.

I understand 100%, but I’m not coming at this from the angle of the characters, I’m coming at it from the angle of the writers. My point is that they are using mental illness as a sign of villainy, and we’re just supposed to go along with it. It is, imo, highly insensitive.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

At the same time I think you could argue that ALL of the characters on the show who fall under the villain category are suffering from SOME form of mental illness whether it is depression, post traumatic stress disorder, full blown psychosis, or dozens of others.

This is a good point. However, Zelena and Ingrid have been shown/portrayed to actually have some sort of mental issues, i.e. their ‘craziness’ is a part of their character as well as it contributing to their motivations as villains, and has also been used as a reason to ‘take them down’.

And even if someone is suffering from a mental illness it doesn’t excuse behavior that harms another person.

An ironic quote I think may be relevant here; ‘having a mental illness is no excuse to act like you have a mental illness’

I agree with you as far as it shouldn’t allow them to get away with hurting other people – Zelena needed to be stopped and the DQ needs to be stopped. However, what the writers did was give them legitimate (in Ingrid’s case at least) reasons to be mentally unhinged and then, rather than stopping them and allowing them to work out their problems, have had the other characters label them as ‘crazy’ and put a bounty on their heads. Which to me seems really callous. Why not just make them evil for the sake of it if you want the viewers to see them as such before killing them?

So really, it would be hard for them to portray ANY of the villains without in some way also portraying various mental illnesses.

I disagree. Many interesting villains have been portrayed without invoking mental illness, including Pan in OUAT.

But I think that is where OUaT is unique in it’s portrayal of fairy tale characters. There really aren’t any strictly good or evil characters on the show in the traditional sense. Because we get to see the characters’ backgrounds and beginnings we are relating to them as “people” not fairy tale characters and we are then getting to understand WHY each of these people have made the choices they have made – which IS essentially showing us the state of mental health of each of the characters. So we are being shown what can happen to someone if they are isolated from thear family, abandoned by their parents, orphaned as a child, lose people they love, regret decisions they have made, addicted to power, overcome with jealously, consumed with vengeance, etc. We see what happens when people are faced with two decisions and they make a bad one – how it can hurt themselves and other, or if they make a good one how it can change their life for the better.

I hate to say it but there are many shows which do this better, including some children’s shows I’ve seen in the past. OUAT really isn’t unique in the way it gives most characters (good, bad, and neutral) decent back-stories.

So I guess it all depends on how you look at the show. If you just look write off all the villains as “crazy” then I think people are probably missing the point.

But it’s not the viewers dissmissiveness I’m commenting on here, its the writers’.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

This is a very interesting topic. I studied psychology in community college and even before that, I’ve always been fascinated why certain characters lean towards good or bad and what makes them that way.

But since we’re talking about a show that has fairytale characters, in Enchanted Forest, I don’t think there was a place where characters who had problems could go to and talk about their issues. Everyone always seems to want a magical solution for everything instead of working on their problems and finding a better solution.

Clearly Rumple is unhinged this season.

I don’t think anyone questions that and so is Ingrid, the problem is that these characters, instead of seeking out help, they choose to cope with their problems on their own. Sadly, there’s still a stigma todays when it comes to mental illness that sometimes, people are just afraid to ask for help from other people. So in that way, I don’t think the portrayal is inaccurate.

My problem with this isn’t so much how accurate/inaccurate the portrayal of mental illness is in OUAT, rather the writer’s callousness and dismissiveness of the subject in general, albeit unintentional (I hope!). It’s not like they’re using mental health in order to legitimately address it, and tbh I’m really not interested in them addressing mental health issues in OUAT, I just wish they’d stop using it as a trope when writing their villains, eg. using it as a way to ‘justify’ why the villains doing bad things, and to justify the heroes taking them down.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

One thing about Adam and Eddy….they create characters you sympathize with, but then they do things to purposefully get the audience to hate their guts just so they won’t be missed in the end, and that really really really irks me! That’s why a lot of Neal Fans despise Zelena because they feel she’s responsible for his death….me, as a hardcore Neal fan, I can’t give 100% of his death to Zelena…I can only pass the “she loaded the gun” judgment. I wanted to Zelena to live, and build the sisterhood she was supposed to have with Regina, which this Frozen Arc could have done for her….

Zelena suffered from many abandonment issues, and if you watch her first reaction to learning Regina was her sister, you can see that she’s slightly shocked but a little happy, but then that quickly turned to envy. Seeing her sister have everything she was supposed to have really stirred the pot of envy, and I always wonder what would’ve happened had the two of them met in the past on good terms. Could having a sister maybe save Zelena, I think yes…they both were two women who were in near impossible situations, who were also alone…having each other in their lives could have changed the course of history.

Ingrid on the other hand…I think there’s hope for her! A lot of it…she hasn’t really done anything to warrant death by anyone in Storybrooke…..she was honestly trying to save and protect Emma. And I do believe she suffers from a mental disorder, being locked in an urn for 30 years with nothing but the memories of being called a monster by one sister, and accidently killing the other will more than likely have that effect on you, so I think she should still have a chance to gain her happy ending. And if a HEA while alive isn’t in the cards for her….then I hope dying to protect Emma and Elsa is the next best thing.

I saw that (bolded) on this site, and was quite shocked at how easily everyone turned on Zelena. It’s almost like the writers just say ‘she’s the bad-guy because we say so, hate her now’, and everyone does??? People were saying she deserved to die, that she asked for it etc.. Even die-hard Rumple fans (which blew my mind to Mars!!!)! But I could never bring myself to do anything but pity her, since she was obviously desperate and unhinged.

As far as Ingrid is concerned? I hope you’re right and both her and Elsa return to Arendelle together to fix things, but something tells me it won’t end too happily for Ingrid.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

This is a really good post, Felie.

I don’t think you’re out of line or over reacting at all. The biggest complaint I remember about Zelena and her plot line was that she was “loony” in her portrayal. She went from cold and menacing (312-313) to just batty overnight starting in about 316. And then she just got progressively worse in her depictition of someone who clearly needed help. And then Rumple just up and killed her…

I don’t think the writers are doing it deliberately, but that’s maybe the biggest problem. They don’t see how their writing is coming across when it comes to these sensitive issues. For instance, they didn’t sit down and say, “we are going to make Zelena unhinged and then kill her to make a point.” They just straight up don’t realize how their writing isn’t jiving with mental illness, casting these villains as crazed and evil and without salvation.

I remember back in episode 304, Rumple talked about his nasty habit of self preservation and several suicide help group nailed Adam to the wall on Twitter because they thought that ONCE was giving a negative view on staying alive and a rather glamorous view of suicide.

It would be nice for the writers to talk about this, but we know it won’t happen. They simply don’t see that their writing is problematic with some issues.

Thanks! I’m glad I’m not the only one who sees it this way.

I don’t think they’re doing it deliberately either, but as you quite rightly pointed out, that almost makes it worse, in a way. They are showing an astounding lack of empathy for their own characters, and for anyone irl who may have suffered in similar circumstances.

The bolded comment makes me sad, as the equating of ‘craziness’ with ‘evilness’ and ‘without salvation’ is how a lot of mental health sufferers end up in the hospital (or worse!) at the hands of those who fear them, and you’re right to point out that this is almost exactly how they have written Zelina and Ingrid’s arcs.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

Wow. So Ingrid can purposely freeze Anna and Kristoff and apparently they’re still alive, but when she accidentally freezes her sister she shatters into 1000 tiny pieces?! Where’s the consistency?

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

Bed: Lancelot

Wed: Jefferson

Behead: Blackbeard

You sure have a lot of characters you like-like, huh?

Good for you hon!

I do too!!!

Bed – Ingrid. Do I even need to explain this choice?
Wed – Emma. Loyal and true. Beautiful too 😉
Behead – Hook. What? I need to get him out the way in order to wed Emma, right?

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

My bet – the ribbons are either for mind/heart control, or mind/heart transfer; turning Emma and Elsa’s bodies into living cabinets to accommodate Helga and Gerda’s minds. What are the chances that Helga and Gerda (in their new bodies) will persuade Ingrid to give up her quest and let them go peacefully in an emotional roller-coaster to end her reign of terror?

Creepy, but I like the way the DQ does things. She sure doesn’t screw around.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Author]

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