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But just morally speaking. Is she accountable for his death in some way? Yes IMO, and Im not saying she alone is. You say after Neal discoveres the truth, she no longer has inflouence. But she had HAD inflouence, she “planted the seed” in him or maybe just watered the seed that was already there, meaning her actions did make the ball roll in the way of Neals death. Had she not done this, something else would have happened in Neals story and who is to tell what that might have been, it could have been with the same outcome, but it could also have been an intirely different one. But as it was, Her actions played a part in what came to be. Neal is not alone responsible for his own death, Z holds responsibility. And so in a more round-about-way does Rumple and even Regina and Emma, though they had absolutely no chance of predicting what of their prior actions would result in Neals death eventually. But morally I wouldn’t say Emma or Regina could be held responsible, but Rumple could, maybe, to an extent.
I’d say she is responsible for the events which led up to his death, but not his death. I separate the events leading up to his death from his death into two different categories; 1)events preceding the discovery of the set-up, 2)events following the discovery of the set-up. That knowledge, to me, is the tipping point in this whole thing. If someone tells you to walk into a building that is on fire, and you know it’s on fire, unless you are a child or incapable of making rational, then you are the only person to blame if you get burned.
Let’s add a touch of ouat-ness back into the mix; Emma and Regina are told by Mr Smee that the magic book they’ve been looking for is on Capitan Hook’s ship. Just as Emma is about to go onto the ship Mr Smee has a crisis of conscience and tells them that the book is on the ship, but that it’s all a trap set up by Pan, who is back from the dead and after Emma for her ‘chosen one’ powers. Who is to blame if Emma, despite this new development and all of Regina’s warnings, decides to board the ship anyway, and get herself captured?
[adrotate group="5"]"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"This is quite the debate! And I mean that in a good way. It doesn’t seem anyone who’s posted is incredibly hurt/offended/put off by others’ thoughts. And this is probably one of the most sensitive topics that has come up during the show. I want to add my opinions but my son’s dinner is calling – so now I am going to mull all of these thoughts over and come back with something hopefully somewhat well stated!
Thanks for leaving a comment!
I honestly thought that this topic would lead to some backlash myself, but the posts so far have all been genuine and thoughtful, despite, as you say, the topic’s sensitive nature and rawness (Neal hasn’t even been buried yet!). I look forward to your post!
"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"But dont we blame her for her actions and the intentions behind them and not the outcome? The outcome will I believe always (or mostly) be the result of multiple peoples intentions and actions. And if so the blame will be the same regardless of what result come from “evil” intentions. This is a very philosophical discussion. I love those
I know.. that is what I mean. I dont blame Z for Neals death, but for her intention to use him as a Tool to ressurect Rumple which she knew would result in his death.
I love debates like this too!
Yes. As I’ve said before on this post, her actions and intentions were immoral, and only she can be held accountable for them. Also, had she not been discovered by Neal and Belle then she would have been mostly to blame for his death. However, if her actions and intentions did not ultimately lead to the his death, then she cannot be blamed, despite all of her intentions. What I mean by this is; as soon as Neal found out about her plot his intentions then became the catalyst which led to his death. His knowledge of the situation overruled her influence since, as soon as her plan came to light, she no longer had any influence (if this makes any sense). Everything that happened thereafter was down to Neal’s actions making the Witch’s intentions of little consequence.
She is guilty of being immoral and attempting to trick Neal into exchanging his life for that of his father’s, but at this point she cannot be accused of being a murderer, or even of manslaughter.
"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"To dismiss what characters say simply because you disagree with the writers is to ignore major parts of what happened. What a character believes is not necessarily the truth…but it’s not irrelevant, nor is it not part of the story.
This was the dialogue just after the Neal turned the key;
Zelena; “Poor Baelfire., he just couldn’t learn from his father’s mistakes. He wanted so badly to get back to his son; couldn’t see the forest from the trees”
Rumple; “You did this. You tricked him.”
Zelena; “all I did was pass on some vital information, with the help of a friend. And your son did the rest”
Rumple; “You didn’t tell him the price”
Zelena; “Oops. It’s a sin of omission, love. Although I’d have thought it was rather obvious; a life for a life.”
Rumple; “It’s going to be alright son”
It’s clear Rumple is angry at Zelena’s for the part she played in his son’s death, but Zelena seems to be saying what I’ve been saying; that Neal acted rashly without thinking, despite all he’s seen and experienced concerning magic.
I do agree it was a bit OOC for Neal to go for the magic solution instead of looking for something else, but the writers who created the characters said this is what he did at this point in his existence. They gave reasonable motivations for it, if not entirely convincing ones, and so that’s the story. Rumple and Zelena both behaved as if, within the story’s moral framework, Zelena was the one who bore the guilt for what happened.
I understand what you’re saying, but just because the characters and writers have assigned guilt doesn’t mean that it gets to automatically override our own human inner-judgement when it comes to the big picture. The more I’ve discussed this point the more I’ve come to realise that this episode (as much as I like it) is either poorly conceived or the writers are allowing some wiggle-room for Zelena to be redeemed. Also, the more I discuss the point and analyse that part of the episode the less I believe Zelena is guilty of much when it comes to Neal’s death.
I’m not absolving Neal (or the writers) for Neal’s mistake. What I am saying is that it’s ridiculously to dismiss Zelena’s guilt here. Neal’s death is at least in large part due to her intervention.
I’m not dismissing the immorality behind Zelena’s intentions. She obviously played a devious hand in getting Neal and Belle to the location of the vault, and was guilty of intentionally building their hopes up when it came to Rumple’s resurrection. This is not the point I’m arguing. If Neal and Belle had not discovered the Witch’s plans then she would have to bear the majority of the blame for the inevitable outcome. However, the outcome was far from inevitable after the discovery of the plot, and it was Neal’s actions, after finding out about Zelena’s part in the plan, which ultimately led to his death. Upon discovering Zelena’s part in the set-up Neal was presented with several different options; walking away for good, walking away and returning with Regina (who would have had a vested interest in resurrecting Rumple too), or recklessly going ahead with opening the vault regardless of the potential consequences, to name but a few.
His knowledge of the Witch’s intentions and of her unwillingness to open the vault herself seriously decreases the significance of the Witch’s role in his death.
"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"I totally agree, seemed an odd change of character for Neal, one minute he hates magic (especially dark magic) the next he doesn’t care about the consequences and resurrects Rumple anyway………………..hmmmmmmm
Yes, I thought so too. Although I really liked the episode I’m starting to see why some fans are calling out the writers for bad/lazy writing. Seems like they wanted the events surrounding Neal’s death to be Zelena’s fault, but didn’t actually want her to kill him herself.
Why, if they wanted his death to be the Witch’s fault, did they have Neal and Belle discover the set-up? Why didn’t they just have Neal fall for the trap, or have him reluctantly play the chivalrous hero by using the key to stop the Witch from killing Belle?
"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"Neal obviously did NOT consider that the price might be his life. He also firmly believed that his father was stronger than the witch and capable of remaining outside of her control. Yes, he dismissed the costs when he shouldn’t have, but he was still in partial ignorance when he used the key. That shifts more of the blame to Zelena in my opinion, and obviously Rumple agrees–because that is what he yells at her when she shows up. And she responds with “Oops,” in a clear admission that she is partially at fault. I’d put it at 60% Zelena, 10% Lumiere, and 30% Neal. But on my spreadsheet you basically get chalked up 1 per death you’re involved in. Which is why right now I’ve got Rumple and Snow each taking a hit for Cora’s death (but not Regina–hmm, what was my thinking then? Actually, similar to now–she didn’t KNOW that’s what she was doing, just as Neal didn’t know he was killing himself).
Regina was given her mother’s heart by Snow White, a person who has done nothing to warrant mistrust on Regina’s part, since there was no history of Snow ever A) tricking someone into killing someone else B) using dark magic, before this incident. Neal, on the other hand, knew that the Wicked Witch was an enemy, and never should have trusted that all was as simple as it seemed. And just because he didn’t consider it doesn’t mean he’s off the hook. He should have considered that there was a reason the Witch wasn’t turning the key herself. His failure to stop and think (or listen to Belle) is what led to his death. He allowed his arrogance and impatience to override his common sense.
Rumple ‘agrees’ because the writers have made it so. Plus, of course he wants to blame Zelena; he’s not going to blame his son for his own death just before it happens. And “Oops” is not a clear admission, but even if it was it’s only because the writers need Zelena to be the big-bad this series.
What I mean is that I’m looking at this situation by separating my attachment to the characters and disregarding the way the writers want us to see these events, and am just looking at the actual events which took place. By doing this I’ve concluded that Neal is more at fault than anyone else in this situation. Try doing this yourself to make sure your attachment to Neal isn’t clouding your judgement;
Daniel and his friend Maria are told by a magic lamp that his father, Colin, can be resurrected by using a hidden key in the door of a hidden vault. Daniel and Maria decide to trust the magic lamp and make plans to depart in the morning in order to find the vault. The next day, after reaching the vault, it comes to light that the whole thing is a trap, cooked up by their enemy, the Wretched Wench. The Wench’s plan is to use Daniel to resurrect his father, so that she may control his father and use him for evil. Upon hearing this Maria is certain that resurrecting Colin is the wrong thing to do and gives Daniel several good reasons why she has come to this conclusion. Daniel, however, dismisses Maria’s concerns stating that he believes his father is strong enough to resist the Wench. “What if he’s not”, asks Maria, “To hell with the costs” replies Daniel. So, despite knowing that the whole thing is a ploy by the Wench, Daniel puts the key in the hole and turns it.
It turns out that the ‘cost’ of doing so is Daniel’s life.
"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"I agree Grimm. The only reason Belle and Neal found out about the plot was because Lumiere slipped up and Belle realised he was lying. Zelena INTENDED for Belle and Neal not to find out about her plot and to resurrect Rumple anyway.
Zelena’s intentions became irrelevant upon Neal discovering them. In other words; Neal’s knowledge of Zelena’s intentions to use him to open the vault for her negated/neutralised those intentions. Everything that happened after the discovery of the set-up was the result of actions taken in light of an informed decision.
Knowledge – Neal knew of Zelena’s plans, plus her knowledge of the vault
Decision – Neal decided to go ahead with opening the vault regardless of the unknown dangers
Action – Neal opened the vault
Result – Neal’s life was exchanged for Rumple’s life
I’d just like to say that I don’t think the character deserved to die. Nor do I believe that Zelena is 100% off the hook; her intentions were indeed bad. She did lead him to the cliff, but it was still his choice to leap.
"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"Thanks for commenting XD
Can I chime in a bit here
interesting topic. Yes it was Neals own choice when he discovered the truth. But Z will still bare the blame partly since it was her choice to manipulate Neal knowing what would happen to him. Same as if someone puts a loaded gun in a suicidal persons hand and wait for the person to pull the trigger. Thats the persons own choice, but the gun wouldnt be there if it wasnt for the other guy. Your comparison is definitely a good one. I really did have to think long and hard about it.
A suicidal person knows that the gun will kill them (or seriously damage them) if they decide to go ahead with using it. And if they do decide to use the gun their only intention is to die. The one who gives a suicidal person a gun presumably has the intention of giving a suicidal person the means to take their own life. The reasons both participants have in giving the gun/wanting to take their own life could be varied. As you have stated, if the person then uses the gun to commit suicide then some of the blame could be said to lie with the gun-giver (though I’m not so sure the scenario is as simple as that).
Neal’s intention in using the key was to revive his dad and, up until he found out about the set-up, was blissfully unaware that using the key would do anything different. However, discovering the set-up made it clear that there could be some potential unwanted/unintentional (read; dangerous) consequences to using the key. Knowing that the Witch set everything up meant that she herself knew where everything was, bringing into question her need for Neal and/or Belle to turn the key for her. This should have alerted them to the possibility that there was danger in turning the key.
If the suicidal person uses the gun, he wants to die and knows he most likely will. When Neal used the key he didn’t know what was going to happen, his intentions were true, but his actions were reckless (he took a chance; it didn’t pay off). The gun-giver doesn’t know what the suicidal person will do, but thinks that he may use the gun to kill himself. Zelena attempted to trick Neal into sacrificing his life for Rumple’s, but was ultimately found out and her dark motives were discovered. If she had not been discovered then she would have been mostly to blame.I think a more accurate comparison would be; A person who is desperate to be reunited with a dead relative is given a gun by a friend who tells them it’s a magic gun that, upon pulling the trigger, will allow them to see the dead loved one again. They latter find out that their friend is actually working for their enemy, but decide to go ahead and pull the trigger anyway.
Anyway… I may have to revisit this post later, when I’ve had more time to think.
"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"
