[Felie]

Thanks for commenting on my thread 🙂

Yeah, Neal made a choice. But if I were going to put credit for his death somewhere, it would be on Zelena. She set it in motion, just as Regina gets credit for killing a village when all she did was order her guards to do it. Neal only chose to disregard unknown costs; it didn’t occur to him that his life might be the cost. Zelena knew it, and manipulated Lumiere into playing on Neal and Belle’s desperation. Lumiere, incidentally, slightly redeemed himself in saving Belle.

Comparing the village massacre to Neal’s death is a false comparison to make, since you seem to be comparing Zelena to Regina, instead of comparing Neal to the villagers. Regina, as far as I can remember, either killed all those villagers by her own hands (using magic), or ordered her soldiers to massacrer them. The villagers (aka; the ones that perished) had absolutely no choice in their outcome, nor did they have any chance of escape. They were powerlessly at the mercy of an evil tyrant who played an active role in their bloody end. However, as you quite rightly pointed out, Neal was the one who decided to take the action which ultimately led to his death. In your example you are comparing those who died powerless, and without choice in a massacre (the villagers) to a man whose literal attitude to the potential consequences of his actions was, and I quote; “To hell with the costs!”.

As I mentioned in a post above, had Neal and Belle not discovered Zelena’s plot then, and only then, would the blame lie in Zelena’s hands. As the only thing Neal would have been ‘guilty’ of is naivete. As they did discover the plot however, the choice Neal took to be reckless and go ahead with turning the key regardless of the potential danger such an action could lead to, meant that he was the one responsible for his own death. He was an adult who made a choice, despite Belle’s warnings and concerns, therefore he must bare the blame. Adults don’t get to make informed decisions and cast blame on someone else when it doesn’t work out. And by informed I mean he was informed by Lumiere that the whole thing was a set-up by the Wicked Witch, which should have been the only information he needed to make the right decision.

[Felie]

“To hell with the costs!” – Neal, just before turning the key.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

Personally….I think that we cannot place 100 percent of the blame on Zelena because she really had nothing to do with it…she was just standing by and not doing anything to stop it. It was Neal’s decision to bring back Rumple, he just never knew the cost (which is strange and ironic as Rumple’s quote was “All magic comes with a price”) So I cannot blame Zelena for Neal’s death….if anything…Lumiere is more responsible if you ask me

Yes. Just… yes.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

I agree with the first part of your post. Everything that happened in the castle and up until they found out it was a set-up was all Zelena’s doing. I meant to say that had they not discovered the set-up then it would have been her fault, but forgot to add it for some reason.

Had Neal found out it was a trap in the library, he may have decided not to go through with it and tried to find another way. However with the way right in front of him, Neal took it. Neal took the bait just like Zelena wanted him to. What parent wouldn’t do anything they could to get back to their child? Zelena took advantage of Neal, and it had to be Neal. Belle doesn’t have the emotional ties to Henry or Emma that Neal does. Zelena deliberately set it up so that Neal would open the vault.

Yes, I understand that he was desperate, but he wasn’t running out of time in any way. He could have waited and sought another path. The fact that he thought the answer to his problems lay only a few feet away from him was no reason to jump in without thinking it through. No one was there threatening him to do it ‘or else’, he had time to sit and think of the consequences/alternatives/etc.

It doesn’t matter that Zelena set everything up for Neal, we’ve already established her role in the whole thing. The fact is that Neal made a stupid, reckless decision, despite knowing that it was exactly what the Witch wanted him to do. He was an adult who should have known better, but I’m not saying he deserved to die.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

Yey, A debate!  I love them so much! Thanks for leaving a comment on my thread PoM

Now, on with the show;

I think you’re comparison of Neal to a dehydrated man is flawed on three levels;
1) Neal was not in a damned-if-I-do-damned-if-I-don’t situation. The dehydrated man will die without water anyway, so what’s the difference as long as his thirst is quenched (a desperate, dehydrated man may think)? The dehydrated man knows that seawater is going to both quench his thirst and kill him, whereas in Neal’s situation there are many unknowns

2) the dehydrated man’s time is running out fast, as are his options, if he doesn’t get water soon he’ll die. Neal had the choice to walk away, find help and then return, or maybe even to move on with his life (a choice that would have been painful, yes, but a choice that would ultimately be the best for everyone)

3) after finding out it was a set-up he should have suspected, despite his desperation, that all was not as it seemed.

Also, comparing a grown man (who has been through, and seen enough to know better) to two children is not a good way to argue the point. With Zelena and Neal it was adult vs. adult, with the other two scenarios it was (manipulative) adult vs. (naive) child. Neal also had another adult telling him not to go ahead with his plans, while the only adult persuading him to go ahead was himself, NOT Zelena  (unlike the case with Henry and Pan, when Henry was persuaded by Pan to give his heart).  Your arguments are straw-man fallacies (ironic, considering our Oz themed topic ;)).

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

YES! Please God yes :’)

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

A thought just struck me (forgive me if someone else has come up with this ‘theory’).

What if, after RS cursed Zelena with green skin, Cora sent her off to live in the LWOC in order for her to live a normal life (since her green skin wouldn’t show through)? What if Zelene, now living in a foster home, suddenly gets transported to Oz? Could Zelene be the OUAT version of the WWW and Dorothy?

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

I don’t think she’s trying to kill David. It would be too obvious it was her. Maybe something to make him trust her? He’s certainly having doubts.

My guess; false flashbacks.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

… Emma and Henry? Auntie Em and Uncle Henry? Weird coincidence, no?

Mind = blown

Didn’t even notice this.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

Secondary likelihood, as it came up in chat: Disney made a sequel movie in the 1980s that was dead creepy called Return to Oz. It combined characters and themes from the second two books Baum wrote, The Land of Oz and Ozma of Oz, though it changed quite a lot.

I’ll be interested to see how either of the girls is portrayed, if they are, in Once. But since a) Disney was involved in the sequel, though it wasn’t very popular–partly because it was so creepy, and b) the movie introduced these characters to a wider audience than those who actually had read the books, I think there’s a greater likelihood we’ll see these characters than any others from later books.

Ah yes, I remember that film… creepy is most definitely an apt description.

Perhaps they’ll include more characters in anticipation that they’ll be introduced in the sequel of Oz the Great and Powerful?

I would like to see the Ozma/Dorothy portrayed as a bit of a badass, which is why I think it would be cool to have her be like Merida from Brave. Not only would they be including her character without having to visit her world, but her headstrong personality would clash so deliciously with Regina IthinkImightdie (especially if Henry develops a crush on her)! Plus, if Zelena was her mother you’ve got the whole ginger thing. It all makes sense… to me at least :I

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Author]

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