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Also, this show does not regularly past the Bechdel test anymore either.
I am more surprised when it does. Actually, I’m sorta floored when it does. One of the things I miss are those sorts of conversations you pointed out above. A lot of the times, people pair up into romantic twosomes and talk.
I miss those conversations too. And the show might technically pass the Bechdel test more then i think, but as i said, it is now done on the slimmest of margins, whereas in the early seasons it was so much a part of the show. They do, too often, just split up into their romantic couples and just go off on their own adventure.
[adrotate group="5"]Quantico’s problem is that it was too much about the romantic relationships between characters and not enough about the fact that a bomb just blew up a building in New York and not enough about the characters learning to be FBI. In Grey’s the show’s first focus is about the characters learning and becoming doctors. In Scandal the focus is very much the politics and the white hats fixing whatever problem they have been hired on to fix. Sure, both of those shows focus on the relationships as well, the characters sleep around and it is a soap opera like that, but that isn’t the entire focus of the show. It isn’t even the biggest focus of those shows, in my opinion.
Quantico focused way too much on the soap opera part instead of letting us like the characters first and then showing all their relationships. Also, the flash back, flash forwards, i don’t even remember which one was the present day, but that did not work. They would show more in the flashback and nothing would happen in the flashforward/present day. I don’t remember anything happening that was interesting in those scenes. Obviously, i gave up the show, so maybe it got better, but if a show is about a bomb blowing up part of New York then that needs to be the focus.
The way that Jennifer talks about this show is completely different. She used to really praise the writing; now she doesn’t. Now she says, she loves Emma’s character and she is glad she did Ouat because it got her into directing. That is what she says now. Everything in that interview was she wants to finish off Emma as a character because she really loves that character, but she can’t do it forever, she can’t be on Ouat forever, she wants to direct, do other projects, aka implying she is ready to move on.
To suggest that Jennifer wants to stay is a complete vocalization of your thoughts when she specifically stated that she can’t do this forever, that she wants to direct which is, as i said, implying she wants to move on.
Also, while the many characters have multiply connections, some could be cut out and the plot continue on. I think Emma is the center of this show and the normal person and to cut her out and just continue on could only happen with a complete change of how the show works and how characters interact. I think that Regina has become the second center and is connected to Snow, Rumpel, Zelena, Emma, and Henry in ways where her removal would change everything about how the characters interact. The removal of Snow and Charming, while a great loss would just mean they wouldn’t be invited on the quests and their story would be finished off. The same with Rumpel, his story would be finished and he wouldn’t be there to ask for magical help.
Also, this show does not regularly past the Bechdel test anymore either. Sure, it does at times. The characters talk about the bad guy of the moment, but even that is passing the test at the absolutely lowest of bars. In Season 1, Emma and Regina regularly talked about Henry, about what it means to be a parent, about Emma being sheriff, about Mary Margaret being in jail, about Henry’s counseling, about Emma’s past and what it would mean if that was found out, and all sorts of things happening in the town from week to week. Many things that had nothing to do with a man because there was no man. Graham was like one episode. I think Emma found out Regina was sleeping with him and he died in the next episode. Snow and Emma did talk about David, but they regularly talked about Henry, Regina, Mary Margaret being in jail, and Emma’s past. There were whole multi episode arcs between the female character that were about other things.
That rarely happens now. Emma and Snow talk about Hook. When Belle talks to Emma or Regina, it is about Rumpel. When Regina talks to Zelena or Snow it is about Robin. There are other things going on in those conversations, but the point many times is something to do with what is going on with their romantic relationship. Emma and Regina are the only female characters that regularly have conversations about things other then their love interest.
No one has to accept the show for what it is; this show is too problematic on too many levels to accept it. I can accept that Emma and Hook are dating, but when Hook continues to do problematic things with Emma and Henry and just general evil, it is going to get brought up. It isn’t like Hook is just a good person and a good boyfriend now. Also, just because this season is a little tiny bit better the 3b, 4 and 5 does not make it good. Especially because it was built upon the backs of that bad writing.
I don’t think its fair to really assume that those who dislike stuff about the show are only doing it because they are upset the ship they wanted didn’t sail.
I agree with this. I wasn’t even really ready for Emma and Neal to get back together when he died. I think they had so much more to talk about then what was said, just like i think that Emma and her parents have so much more in depth things they need to talk about with regards to Emma’s childhood before their relationship can just be done and happy. But the build was swanfire. Even now, Emma and Neal have had much more in depth conversations about their past and what happened to them when they first met then Hook and Emma have had. Emma and Hook have been dating for months and done all sorts of terrible things to one, worse then what happened with Neal which was bad, and yet Emma and Hook have still have not had in depth conversations about those things. And those things keep building. With Emma and Neal it was the one thing, the one life altering incident. With Emma and Hook it is more like fifty things, fifty extreme and damaging and abusive things.
And that all comes back to me liking Emma and wanting her character to be consistent and well developed and Hook being her love interest does not do that for her.
Emma is the best character on this show, in my opinion. People do make fun of her. They call Emma a pod person, which is a completely reasonable criticism, but i don’t. I think Emma’s backstory and her parent interactions with Snow and Charming and her child interactions with Henry and her coparenting interactions with Regina are the best thing about this show. I just think they aren’t really part of the writing of the show anymore. While i love Regina’s relationship with Emma as well as Regina’s relationship with Snow, even though they make no sense and should not exist, those relationships should not take precedence over Emma’s relationship with Snow and yet they do. Also, Hook keeps stepping between the Emma and Snow conversations when he should not. Emma can talk to Hook, but not at the expense of her ever having serious, important, life altering conversations with her mother.
I like Emma’s scared about being a savior because she might die plot point, but Emma isn’t going to die, so the will she won’t she of it is not interesting to me. Also, Emma hasn’t had any deep important conversations about why she is worried and what it means for her personally that she might die after finding her happiness and what it could mean for the future and for Henry. Any conversations that she has are not detailed or based on her past or her hope for the future, they are just she is worried. Emma is still the best character on the show, in my opinion.
Seriously though, what is there to say about the good scenes? The scene with Snow and Regina talking by the town hall was really interesting even though everything the characters said is pretty much insane and it makes no sense that they are on speaking terms, but i loved that scene. Or i like that Snow and Charming are at least still worried about Emma moving in with Hook and that they are just being supportive because it makes her happy, but that scene lasted twenty seconds, so what is there to say about it, but that. I liked Emma’s scenes with Aladdin. I would rather she talk to her parents, but at least we got to see a little bit if what she was feeling.
This show has a problem in that there are too many unconnected characters. That is why Belle and Hook have conversations. That is why Emma talks to Hook so much and Rumpel to Belle so much and Regina to Zelena so much because those three characters, Hook, Belle, and Zelena don’t really have relationships with the other characters. The problem being that then causes writing problems. They then have an episode where Belle needs to talk to someone and it can’t be Rumpel because Belle is in a fight with him, again, and they need to have Emma and Regina together because Emma is the moving piece, she is figuring out what is happening, and they needed to have the conversation where Regina asks Emma to kill her. They then have this weird thing happen where Emma says Granny’s rooms are bad, which makes no sense, and so Hook invites Belle to go sleep on his ship, which makes no sense, and Belle actually accepts, which makes no sense. Then Belle and Hook have personal conversations that make no sense. Many times weird things happen on this show to free Emma and Regina so that they can talk to one another or to new characters that no one cares about.
One of the things is that even the scenes i love with Emma and Snow or with Snow and Regina or with Emma and Regina or with Rumpel and Emma or Regina or with Aladdin being the new character i like the most right now, still exist within the writing problems. I might like a scene or a relationship, but it can still be really badly written.
I think the reason i dislike Hook dating Emma so much is because of how much i like Emma as a character. Robin should not have dated Regina and i am glad he is gone or was gone, but i don’t care about Robin. Emma being such a well developed with a good back story and a deep and flawed and realistic character dating someone like Hook which goes against all of her development is grating to the extreme.
Everything that Jennifer said in that article implied that she wants off the show, but she might be willing to stay one more season if it is the last. Jennifer is done with this show. She wants to do other projects. She doesn’t like her storyline and the inconsistencies on the show. She wants to direct. She said she is glad she did Ouat because it got her into directing.
Also, if there really is going to be a big change, which that could just be all talk because contracts are up and the actors are trying to get more money, but if there is going to actually be a big change on the show then the only thing that would cause a big change is either Jennifer or Lana leaving the show. Lana doesn’t seem to want to leave and doesn’t do other projects really, so it stands to reason, that it is Jennifer who is the one who might leave.
The Buffy episode was great because Buffy finally told the rest of the characters and the audience why she was such a mess. It was a huge character moment. As did some of the other characters. It wasn’t just hey the characters can sing, lets have them sing just because. It was funny, but it was also a huge dramatic character moment in the end. Ouat has never been that show. I can’t see the purpose behind having a musical episode except to have one just because.
Regarding the question of whether Hook and Emma should break up, people are using different perspectives to decide what is “logical”. @thedarkonedearie is using a Doylist perspective while @hjbau and others are using a Watsonian perspective. It makes sense that if A & E don’t see the problems with the relationship, then they wouldn’t break up a couple they’ve invested in. But from an in-universe perspective, it might make sense in terms of character consistency, relationship problems etc. It depends a lot on which perspective you are basing your argument on.
Right, i am not in denial of the authors intent. I see the twitters, i hear the actors toeing the party line, i see the spoilers. Like i said i think Emma and Hook are going to get married and make babies and all that stuff, but in universe, that which would be logical and consistent for the characters within the show, in my opinion, would be for Emma and Hook to break up. Emma, growing up without family, her issues with trust, her issues with trust in romantic relationships specifically, the way Emma and Hook met, Hook under a pile of bodies, the lies and the threatening, the attempts to kill one another, the crass comment, Hook selling Henry’s father and Emma’s first love interest to Pan for protection, the absolute mess that was Emma and Hook being dark ones, Hook throwing himself off the building to get Emma’s attention, all of the horrible things that Hook has said to Emma about being an orphan and all that, Hook then trying to murder Emma’s family so she would be the only one left, Emma leaving the Underworld and saying that it was a mistake to ever go down there.
It isn’t going to happen, but for me, the most logical, in universe thing to happen next, would be for them to break up.
I don’t believe that A and E are deliberately writing a troubling relationship when it comes to CS; I also don’t believe they are deliberately being misogynistic, racist, classiest, and intolerant to LGBTQ community, but that doesn’t mean that their story doesn’t reflect those negative attributes.
And that’s just sort of what I mean. No matter how much someone thinks or believes the relationship is abusive or whatever, it doesn’t mean it makes sense for Emma to break up with Hook because the writers have never felt that way and as a result, Emma has been written in such a way to accept Hook and all his actions. Never has she felt the need to break it off with him. So for her to do it now, at the end of her character’s arc, especially after the way Hook has been written this season, just would not make sense.
I understand what you are saying here. The writers do not know that they are writing an abusive relationship. They are, in my opinion, doing so regardless of whether not they realize and regardless of whether or not Emma reacts to Hook as if his behavior is abusive. That is why i believe it does make sense for Emma and Hook to break up because if we just take show canon, then Emma and Hook’s relationship is one conversation away from ending at any moment. For me, it is not a leap to conclusion it is just one tiny step and there the conclusion lays. The only thing it would take for all of what has happened with Emma and Hook to make sense would be for her to break up with him.
I completely understand that they aren’t going to and that Adam and Eddy don’t get it, but i do think it is the most logical thing that could happen. If Emma and Hook were just to talk about all of the things that they have done to one another, all of the things Hook has said, all of their history, if they were just to bring it up and talk about it like real people, then breaking up would be logical.
