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I know a lot of people are concerned about Hook losing the qualities that make the character “Hook” but I don’t think that’s going to happen. I think we’re going to see that now that he has people he loves (and yes, I say people because I think after 3B I think before long, he’s going to consider Snowing, Regina and of course Henry family as much as Emma), he can be downright vicious if they are put into danger. He was already willing to do anything for Emma, and we saw him truly start to bond with Henry, and want to work with the others to defeat the WW, regardless of whether Emma reciprocated those feelings. Now that she does, I think it’ll be natural for him to want to develop closer relationships with those that are important to her, in addition to Henry, and I can definitely see ‘Hook’ coming out should any of them be threatened.
For that reason, I’m fine with the JR not making any other appearances except for in flashback (hehe, remember when people were SO SURE Hook was going to be the one to die because they dismantled the ship? It made the actual story so much better when we finally saw why they don’t need the boat anymore!!!) and I don’t mind if he gives up the pirate gear (although keep that coat around, I love that coat!!!), because I think we’ll still see plenty Hook in Killian.
[adrotate group="5"]I do love the EF costuming. I think they do an excellent job; everyone’s clothing is so detailed and character specific.
But I am not a fan of the SB clothing. It’s like two completely different shows, and I get the costuming is a good way to differentiate between the two (because it’s not obvious enough already…?) but one would think they would choose to keep similar themes present for the characters; to show that whether in SB or EF, the core individual is the same.
Ex: Mary Margaret…to me, Bandit Snow would seriously wonder what on earth got into her. I know part of the problem is trying to hide Ginnifer’s pregnancy but the unfortunate MM outfits started well before Ginny started showing. I did like MM’s S1 clothing – simple skirts and cardigans – typical, simple, teacher attire. Perfect. But you would think that during S2 & S3, as the characters have their dual memories, the characters would incorporate more of their signature EF style into SB…I would love to see some modern takes on Snow’s cream and earthtoned outfits. Pregnant Snow just wouldn’t be wearing that awful jean dress-thing that looked like she ransacked David’s closet for an old workshirt.
I also loved Emma’s S1 clothing – simple, functional, very in character. I loved how Emma could take a simple jeans and t shirt and still look incredibly feminine. Now it’s almost like the clothes wear Emma…like in Kansas. Emma goes to the WW’s house, knowing there’s a good chance for a fight….in a pencil skirt? Who does that?? It’s cute but it’s not really the best kick-hiney attire.
And the show is supposed to take place in Maine…ok, I’m a New Englander and I can tell you – absolutely no woman is running around in the dead of winter in miniskirts!
I really don’t think we’ll see The Jolly Roger again. I think if we do it again, most likely, it’ll be in flashback only and actually, I’d prefer it that way. Killian trading the Roger, his home (that held good and bad memories for him but was still his home) to get Emma back to hers, is so incredibly significant…I feel like if he gets the ship again, it’ll lessen his sacrifice. But it’s okay if we see the ship in flashback. Still, I don’t think we will anymore. That part of his life, the one filled of pain and regret – it’s over. And Killian’s starting a new life with Emma.
I agree, I don’t think we’ll see the JR – and I’m ok with that…! I loved that Killy traded his ship to get back to Emma. So as much as I like the JR and the role it plays in Hook’s life, I’m happy to see it gone, because it shows that Killian literally sacrificed everything for Emma. It would be interesting to see Emma try to get the JR back, but I don’t think I’d want that either. I’d rather they focus on making their home together, regardless of where they are.
I think Neal will be remembered and brought up – he and Graham are vastly different characters. Graham’s purpose, essentially, was to show some of Regina’s backstory and be the first character we see start to break through the confines of the curse. Neal, however, had connections to many characters in the show, primarily Emma and Henry, two of the core characters. While yes, it was sad Graham died, he didn’t have the connections that Neal has, so it’s easier to ‘forget’ that character.
Yes, Neal is a hero…but I think that’s one of the points in OUAT. All of our main characters have both hero and villain within them. (Main characters, not villain of the arc) That’s not to diminish what Neal did; if it weren’t for him…deabsorbing…from Rumple to get the note to Hook, the events that needed to happen to get us where we are could not have occurred. Of course, had he not acted rashly, and opened the vault, he wouldn’t have aided the WW in her own plans.
We’ve seen over and over again, it’s all about perspective. People get passionate about their favorites, and it can get to the point of blinding them against the negative qualities of that character (believe me, I include myself in the argument, if we get to Hook I am one of the biggest supporters on the forum). But when we try to take a step back, and reanalyze, it becomes easier to see that no one is perfect and each of them have the ability to be the hero AND be the villain. Even Neal.
Oh, A&E another fascinating and “bold” storyline you could have explored – Neal the hero vs villain… so Neal dabbled in the dark magic…what would’ve happened if he hadn’t gotten all glued to Daddy and then sacrificed himself??? Would someone who was so averse to magic, especially dark magic, for so long be tempted to continue using it if his plan had been a complete success? What would he think about Emma’s magic – and potentially Henry’s (seriously that kid’s got to have a little raw power in him)? He ran from the EF and his childhood for so long, and obviously he couldn’t outrun it completely because as soon as he met Emma he was immersed again – what does that do to him? A much better story than the ridiculous road they took. Must we do all the work for you??
To expand on #1, I do believe a big part of the problem is with the way the entire storyline was written. It’s just too loose and there are way too many questions that I believe A&E didn’t really think through…perhaps because as mentioned, S1 was about mothers and sons, and there was far less ‘shipping involved. But you write characters that people love, and eventually people are going to ask questions. So that storyline regarding Neal/August/Emma/jail needed to be tight. Perhaps the tightest storyline to date. But instead it’s one of the weakest – it had to play out this particular way “or bad things would happen?” Sorry A&E, simply not enough. Even for a casual viewer, because at that time I was still definitely in casual viewer territory, and I definitely wasn’t buying it.
I can’t quite remember when they decided to make Neal & Bae the same person, but it seems as if they came up with the ‘baby Daddy let’s Emma go to jail’ before they meshed him with Bae, who was a beloved character by almost all. Which is where the storyline falls apart for me, because that’s the first decision we see Neal make that seems very disjointed. Yes, by then teenage Bae & adult Neal had been through a lot but in order for the storyline to make sense, they had to show a lot more backstory for me to accept it. Especially when you then see that Neal is the guy who steps up and takes responsibility when he realizes he has a son, and shows he would do anything for his family.
Maybe August’s involvement is my problem…there had to be far more conversation between Neal & August for Neal to think jail seemed like a good plan for me. Maybe because I usually wanted to slug that smirk off his face most of the time…
Here we go, RG, asking the hard questions!
1) Were there other options for Neal besides leaving Emma in “Tallahassee” (if we accept that the curse MUST be broke)
This is one of the things I struggle with the most. Ultimately…yes, I think that Neal had other options. I think the idea of going back and dealing with Rumple may have scared him. I do believe that Neal had absolutely no idea who Emma was until he was told by August, and I think the idea of going back to the life he finally got away from could have been an extremely scary thing for Neal…but I do think the decision he let August talk him into making was the wrong decision. If he stayed, he had 11 years to figure out how to get Emma to SB. I don’t really feel the writers adequately explained why Neal had to allow for Emma to go to jail (let’s be honest, he knew based on his conversation with August and was told Emma got 11 months,) why Emma couldn’t break the curse with TLK – whether she raised Henry or not, or was with Neal or not, in theory she should’ve still been able to break the curse with TLK. I understand there may have also been an element of Emma having to believe Henry in order for the curse to break as well, but I do believe if you truly love someone you figure out a way.2) Do you think Neal ever tried to look for Emma?
Yeah….I don’t think he did. Maybe the genuinely felt that was the right thing to do. Maybe he felt that he needed to move on, and he needed to let Emma move on too. But no, I don’t think he tried to find her. Emma was in Tallahassee for 2 years after prison; I imagine making it fairly easy for Neal to find her if he so chose…and he didn’t.3) Was little Bae right to ask his father to give up magic?
Yes. I agree with Watcher on this one. Magic wasn’t necessarily a problem but Rumple gave in to the Dark Side of it – and that’s what the problem was. Had Rumple not killed the DO and taken on the persona, or somehow fought the dark aspect of his powers, the magic wouldn’t have been a problem, but the darkness destroyed his relationship with his son. I think Bae would have far preferred a father who was considered a ‘coward’ than the evil that came with becoming the DO. And I do think they made it very clear – the reason Bae wanted Rumple to give up magic was to salvage their relationship, to have his father back.
4) Does Neal owe Rumple unconditional love and acceptance (a la Belle?)
No. Just because someone is a biological parent, doesn’t mean they deserve unconditional love from that child. Rumple (and Milah) caused the pain and struggles Nealfire had to go through – and I think everyone would agree, he went through a lot. I think the fact that Neal forgave Rumple by the end of 3A was pretty telling – Neal has a huge capacity to love and forgive. Yes, Rumple may have realized pretty immediately that he screwed up by letting Bae fall through the portal, but he still SCREWED UP. I don’t really care that he tried to find him again for 300 years. Had it not been Rumple’s poor decisions, Neal never would’ve had to deal with everything he had to deal with.5) Most characters in lit and TV have a ἁμαρτία (harmatia) or fatal flaw (for example, Rumple’s might be his pride) What is Neal’s fatal flaw?
This is a tough one! I think his fatal flaw is that he can be a little impetuous, and can maybe believe in others a little too easily. To me, August’s “you have to let Emma go to jail” speech wasn’t particularly convincing. But Neal did believe that August was right and made that decision incredibly quickly. When they returned to the EF after 3A, I get his motivation for his actions, but I do feel his desire to achieve the end result clouded his thinking when he decided to do things like reopen the vault. Even blind-when-it-comes-to-Rumple Belle gave pause. But Neal was all in.I asked the series creators if we’ll perhaps be seeing Elsa before — Frozen movie spoiler alert! — she and Anna happily reunited, back when she was in that epic snit. “Maybe yes, maybe no. It could be after,” Adam Horowitz hedged. “One can be in a snit for many reasons.” [x]
Hehe, ‘snit.’
I think I kind of like the idea of this arc’s ‘shiny toys’ not being in all 11 episodes though. I liked when they took a bit of a break from the main arc and did a little something different. I wouldn’t mind a few little stories like that here and there.
I also agree he brought a nice sense of ‘normalcy’ to the show. He was your ‘Everyman’ and a show like OUAT needs an ‘Everyman’ to keep it grounded. As said, Emma is pretty much fully engrained into the ‘fairy tale,’ as shown by becoming part of the book in the finale.
The ONLY (and I say only loosely because I still think it’s crap) reason I see for removing Neal from the situation is because that ‘everyman’ and piece that ties the entire family together originally was Henry — Neal just did it better. Goodness knows, you can’t have 2 characters with that role, especially if they’re father & son! (Yes, that is sarcasm.)
One of the things I really love about OUAT is their perspective that it doesn’t take biology to make people a family – it’s the love you have for each other that’s important. Emma/Neal/Henry are an excellent way to show that whether together romantically or not, two people that were together and have a child can still be parents to that child AND are still family, whether the couple is together romantically or not. Add adoptive mom Regina in, and show them all effectively parenting Henry and you’ve got an amazing example of how families work, whether they fit the traditional mold or not.
Nealfire! I was hoping we’d touch on him, but being that he can be perceived as one of the more…controversial?…characters I figured I’d wait can let our keymaster decide if we went there…. 🙂
There are SO MANY things I still wanted to know about Neal. I think A&E did a pretty good job about fleshing out his life when we was Bae – we got a clear understanding of how he and Rumple were separated, how his mother’s leaving him affected his life with Rumple…but for the most part, his life as Neal is a big ol’ void. Where did he go when he first got here from NL? Why did he choose the name Neal? (I always figured there might be a story there…I figured he ‘landed’ in the US and although it’s a recognizable name, you’d think he would’ve gone for something extremely popular the time like ‘John’ or ‘Michael’ to blend easier…wait! John or Michael! Ok maybe Tom) When did he decide to ‘go straight’? Immediately after Emma was sentenced or did it take a long time? What happened that led up to meeting with August? (Whatever you think about the decisions he made, to me I just feel there had to be some kind of motivation…as a child he found a way through a portal and spent 300 years in NL…he was resourceful – so what led him to agreeing with Pinocchio or just saying ‘forget you’ and taking Emma and going?) The only real headcannon I ever formed is my thoughts regarding Hook and Bae’s relationship (it’s ridiculously specific) so it would’ve been interesting for me to see more of it and what CaptainFire would be like.
I think if they hadn’t made the crap decision that killing Neal was “bold” and “essential to the storyline,” then I think Neal, Emma and Regina would’ve figured out a way to co-parent Henry. I think Neal and Henry could’ve formed an extremely close bond. I think an excellent storyline would’ve been seeing how Neal and Rumple repair their relationship, and the similarities/differences between theirs and Henry/Neal’s. And if the writers insist everyone be related to everyone, then I would’ve liked to see Neal’s side of the story become close and be drawn more ‘into the fold’.
