[Jenna_B]

To me Price, I think too many Oncers focus too much on that aspect of the quote and ignore everything else about it. I don’t view it as presumptuous. I view it more as confident. And there’s a big difference between being presumptuous and confident. I found my old post about it:

Remember earlier on before the kiss, Hook wasn’t confident that Emma would love him. Remember how Charming taunted him about that? I don’t see him being presumptuous here but confident. There’s a difference. Confidence is good. And Hook knows Emma well enough that when she is ready to love him, she will. He’s not cornering her into making a decision now. He’s stating that the choice will be hers to make and she will have to make a choice between Neal and Hook. I also do not see how what Hook says is any different than what Mary Margaret said to David when they were cursed, that David would have to make a choice between her and Katherine. And lastly, it will not be because of any trickery. It will be because you want me. The trickery mention goes back to fighting fairly and good form. I love how Hook states upfront that he’s done with his old ways of getting what he wants. He’s going to do things the right way, he’s going to do right by Emma because it’s what best for her. So, when she makes her decision, when she chooses him, loves him, wants him in her life or whatever, there will be no question about it. This will be her choice. It will be because she makes that decision.

And then let’s reflect what happened in the finale: Emma accepted her feelings for Killian in the Enchanted Forest, she saw what her parents went through and realized, she had been doing the same thing when it came to relationships in her life. So when she missed him in the diner, she realized what Hook not being by her side meant and sought him out. She chose him then, so when he told her about his ship, it cemented her feelings for him and thus, the kiss. There was no trickery involved. The mystery of the ship was revealed when it was appropriate for Emma to know about it, when she could accept it. When Emma was ready to love Killian, when she was ready to accept love back into her life, she came to him.

Love your post, Obisgirl!  And I don’t have much to add since you summed up all my thoughts as well…

 

Hook is an interesting character in that his self confidence seems to come in ebbs and flows.  Sometimes he’s ridiculously cocky – and the viewer can easily see he’s covering up being self-conscious and maybe a little out of his element.  But when it comes to love, unlike many, Hook/Killian is extremely confident – not because he feels whoever is on the receiving end should be grateful, or owes him something for his love.   And I don’t think it’s because he knows that person will ‘come around’ – it’s because he’s going to love that person irregardless of whether they return that love. Because he knows he is a better person for loving them, regardless of whether or not that love is returned.

So when he says he will win Emma’s heart, it’s not that he will be playing games and not give until he gets the girl, he’s saying the reason Emma will return his feelings is because he will have earned them by being the person she wants – and more importantly – needs.

What I think is most important in that exchange – He’s not giving her a timeline – he’s pointing out to her that neither one of them are ready at that moment – Hook has some work to do to become the right person for Emma, but he has no doubt he can become that person, because he loves her so much that he wants to become the person capable of being loved by Emma.

[Jenna_B]

Ok, I think I’ll start with the EF debate.  It’s a fun one.
I think POM & RG both have good points.  I don’t look at Hook in the EF as ‘saving Emma’ or reducing her to a ‘damsel in distress’ because Emma shows she can get herself out of dire situations on her own (‘no one saves me but me’!) Emma does essentially know how to navigate the EF, and had she been sent back alone, she maybe could’ve done what she needed to do by herself.  It would’ve been a lot rockier though, because like POM said, when Emma was in the EF in S2, it didn’t matter that Emma didn’t blend.  And – she had Snow, Mulan and Aurora.  Hook was essentially providing Emma with the same need-to-know pieces that the girls assisted Emma with in S2.  And remember, Emma was a huge fish out of water, even by the time they left.  One of my favorite S2 EF scenes is a simple one – they were eating/drinking and Emma’s sniffing everything and picking at everything like a child introduced to a new food.  It was subtle, but it showed Emma very out of her element (and it was hilarious).  When Hook & Emma are in the EF, the major difference is that it is of utmost importance that they do not call attention to themselves unless given no other option (ex: they encounter Charming/Snow, etc but disguised as Prince Charles and Princess Leia).  The ball scene – I’m going to agree, it’s mostly fluff.  But it was a good way to see Emma actually enjoying the life she would’ve had if the original curse hadn’t been cast and she had grown up as a princess.  It also allowed Emma to let down her walls a little, feel a little more comfortable, and by extension feel the near-death of her mother even more.

Savior/Mother/Product of True Love: Emma
This was brought up on the last page, I believe, that S1 introduced Emma as the Savoir/Henry’s mother and these were her defining characteristics.  With this, I agree.

Savior:  And I preface this with I cannot STAND the Savior stuff – Emma and Henry and their true love between mother and son was the only thing that would have broken the original curse that created Storybrooke.  However, I’m not sure why Emma continues to need to be the Savior.  I don’t know why exactly the other characters need to see Emma as a Savior.  Yes, Emma’s a natural leader, and the necessary leader in 3A, but I think the other characters use the ‘Savior’ as a crutch to force Emma to continue to be the leader and makes us as viewers expect Emma to be the one to constantly save the day.  My question – why?   Why can’t Regina emerge as the ‘Savior’ against Zelena?  Why can’t Rumple emerge as the ‘Savior’ for whatever’s going to happen in S4?  Or Snow, or Charming?  What I saw in 3B is Regina growing to become a leader and the only one who could really beat Zelena, her sister.  But perhaps Emma got a little lost because of that.  She wasn’t really sure what her role was if she wasn’t saving the day.  And that fear is what ignited the downward spiral that led to Emma declaring she was going back to NY and taking Henry, being selfish and putting her own fears ahead of anyone else’s thoughts or needs, and getting almost downright mean to most of her loved ones.

Mother:  As a mother, I do agree that Emma was selfish in declaring she was taking Henry and returning to NY when Zelena was defeated.  However, becoming a mother doesn’t make someone perfect.  It certainly doesn’t mean that a woman isn’t going to act for selfish reasons.  In a perfect world, maybe – but not reality.  If you want reality, then Emma is a ‘real’ mother.  She’s scared out of her ever loving mind and acting/reacting due to that fear.  Being a mother is scary and hard and it changes you profoundly.  But it definitely does not mean every decision you make – even in the name of your child – is going to be the right decision.

That said, it also doesn’t mean your child isn’t constantly on your mind.  Yes, in truth, Emma’s statement that moving to NY was for Henry was really about Emma and her fears, as a mother, it did ring true – you can convince yourself that you’re doing something for your child even if it has more to do with you – and you can convince yourself that the decision is best for both of you.  Which is what I think Emma was doing.  And in the EF, maybe Emma didn’t mention Henry, but that doesn’t mean Emma wasn’t thinking about him the entire time.  I think about my child constantly, but I don’t necessarily mention him every 30 seconds.  Emma had so much going on – bringing up Henry would have seemed odd to me, not realistic.  She had a mission – to get home – to her entire family, including her child.  And she achieved that goal.  And in the end, she faced her fears, realized and acknowledged what she was doing, and made the right decision for herself, and for Henry.

Product of True Love:  I think this is one pickle A&E really need to define.  Why is being the product of true love so special when it comes to Emma?  If we’re looking at that classic, fairy tale, 1st love = true love = 1 true love, then doesn’t that mean Cinderella and what’s his face’s baby is the product of true love?  And Philora’s?  And even Charming himself?  If you want to broaden the term, and consider two people can have True Love but that love can change or even end or the people be ripped apart, (for whatever reason), then wasn’t Bae the product of true love?  And Henry himself the product of true love?  And of course, Emma’s brother Neal – if Emma is the product of true love, isn’t Neal?  So…what’s the big deal with Emma being the Product of True Love?  Emma even mentioned this to Rumple in the finale.  I don’t know that this has been addressed by the writers, within the context of the show, to my satisfaction at this point.

Emma & Snow
One thing I would really love to see is Emma and Snow’s relationship be focused on and dealt with.  I think now that Emma has finally truly accepted Snow and Charming as her parents, and finally consciously realizes they constitute part of their home, this may (should) be addressed.  I think, though, that Emma wouldn’t really be able to do this with Snow until this point.  Sometimes, it’s just easier for daughters (even adult ones) to talk to their fathers – and with Charming having the personality he does, and the ability to read people a little better than Snow – I can see why it was easier for Emma, with walls still up, to connect with Charming.  But Emma really needed to do some healing and some self reflection before she and Snow are going to be able to address their relationship.  A mother/daughter relationship is complex – add in the fact that you only recently found out (again) why your mother abandoned you, and that she’s magically the same age as you – and you’re going to have difficulty to really bond with her.  An adult woman and her mother can be friends, but it’s a very different friendship that you have with your other female friends.  And Emma knew MM as her adult girlfriend – to have that person now be her mother – that’s a lot to process.  But now that Emma has grown and finally found the ability to let her family in, and accept them all, I think Emma and Snow, and by extension, the show, to really address their problems and get their characters to a place where they can work on their relationship.

Overall, I think I’m forgiving of the flaws OUAT has (and I’m not saying the show doesn’t have a lot of flaws; like every show, it definitely has it’s problems) because it’s trying to tackle so much.  They have a lot of characters to address, multiple arcs within a season, and the showrunners are boys who get excited with their new toys, so sometimes character development does get lost in the shuffle.  And of course, that’s a lot to try to include in, essentially 22, hours over the course of the year (less, actually, because almost 1/3 of that is commercials).  So I think that’s why I tend to accept the problems we see creep up – yes, I love to theorize and analyze ad nauseum (don’t we all – it’s why we’re here!! 🙂 ) and say ‘hey wait a minute’ – but for an hour a week, I do sit in front of the tv and have a fun ride for an hour while I’m watching.

[Jenna_B]

I guess I look at OUAT slightly differently, and maybe that’s why I have less issue with her portrayal in 3b.  personally I was glad it wasn’t Emma who saved the day; it was the woman who essentially got them in this “mess” in the beginnng – Regina.  I know a lot of people consider OUaT to be Emma’s story but I much prefer to view it as an ensemble so to have Emma not be the hero this time around, and also be able to screw everything up was ok with me.  (I also don’t pay much attention to timeline so that probably helps)

The reaon the finale works for me is because we’re watching Snowing’s story through the eyes of the daughter they gave up.  Imagine being able to see that.  Imagine the effect it would have on you.  I think Emma’s walls have been comimg down steadily so the going to NY thing seemed more of  a dEfense mechanism than truth

 

 

[Jenna_B]

Haha @callmeLola they used to show that miniseries every year where I am…didn’t really get the attraction to Chamberlin but yeah it definitely skewed how an impressionable Catholic girl viewed the handsome priest at church!

[Jenna_B]

Yeah…I don’t know if I could watch The Rite…Colin as a priest…my head might explode!  (I saw the miniseries The Thorn Birds at a very impressionable age…)

 

[Jenna_B]

I don’t understand why being a shipper disqualifies me from partaking in character discussion and the like. I am active in almost every single thread on this forum, and not just because I’m keymaster. It’s like saying that I am incapable of conversing with the rest of the fandom without it devolving into ship talk and worse still, it devolving into negative conversation as if any criticisms I have simply stem from “angry shipper”…I–and many others–are more than capable of having rational conversations about character, plot, ect without resorting to the shippyness of it all–and by that I mean trying to sell your ship and your ship’s beliefs to someone who does not buy into them, either because they are on the opposite side of the debate or because they simply don’t care/don’t ship.

And I think that’s exactly it, RG.  It’s a relatively small forum; most people that either post or just read can gather fairly quickly who likes what ship, isn’t a shipper, etc.  The problem is that people then quickly put that person into a ‘shipper category, when really, there are few seriously hardcore-incapable-of-having-nonshipping-conversations/arguments.  Sure, you can include me as a CSer, but certainly don’t label me as such and write me off as incapable of non-CS conversation, or even of  not being able to understand the merits of SF/SQ, because I do believe they all have merit.  And some of my favorite people to discuss/debate with – RG, MP, Jo, Ranisha for very quick example – are not members of “my ‘ship,” but I have wonderful and thought provoking conversations with them!

 

So let’s just be the group of people to start encouraging more non-ship conversation!  Somebody’s gotta do it!  Ok, now I’m turning into a cheerleader and kind of annoying myself.  🙂

[Jenna_B]

We had a conversation in chat about a month or two ago, now. We were talking about ships and the various groups within the fandom. People had various opinions regarding what ship/faction is the largest and many seemed to base it on the amount of chatter generated online by each group. But I don’t think the amount of ‘noise’ a group makes means they represent a large group or a small group – they represent the loudest parts of each group only. And when the loudest start to become negative, it can really intimidate and sour others’ opinions and desire to contribute. I know the 2nd half of S3 really upset many fans, and others who weren’t as upset didn’t really know how to react or how to best acknowledge other members’ feelings here. But if in this one forum, we as members can try to keep a positive outlook in the general threads, and keep the venting and griping to their individual thread, it is possible for us to have the discussions and even debates many seem to want to have. I know toward the end of S3 we had a pretty good number of lurkers post and those of us more active on the thread really encouraged it — so I think sometimes it just takes members encouraging and being positive to get others to emerge and also share opinions in a positive way.

There have been a number of non-CS conversations in the CS thread that were excellent debates — and I couldn’t help thinking how great it would be to get the opinions of non-CSers as well…but that wasn’t going to happen if they aren’t in the thread to see the discussion in the first place. I think it’s just a matter of people actively promoting conversation outside of ‘ship context. It can be difficult, and I don’t think it needs to be purely the mods who encourage non-shipping conversations. But the more people just keep quiet, and don’t contribute, the easier it is for people who are going to talk to stay in their comfort zone.

RG – you made the new thread that points out some non-shipping threads – thank you! Maybe, though, it could be named something like character threads or non-shipping threads to really stand out to members so we know where to go to maybe reactivate the discussions in more appropriate places? (You know how we all love to ask the mods instead of look! Myself included! But maybe people would be drawn to them if it were clear as day? 🙂 )

[Jenna_B]

Actually, I brought up something similar recently, @Myril. I really would love if, in addition to ‘ship-talk, there were more threads devoted to the non-ship aspects of the show – in particular, when talking about specific characters. I used Neal as my example, because I’d love to have more SF/antiSF-free discussion about him, but question where to go with such conversation, because I want to get opinions of all members, shippers & non-shippers alike. RG did make the helpful links thread but I’m not sure if everyone knows the character threads are in there?

[Jenna_B]

Overall, the reason I love OUAT is the whole story, and I agree @Gaultheria, I love the trials and tribulations that all of the characters go through. Regina and Rumple’s struggles between being ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are always amazing to watch. The show would be boring if we were watching nothing but a bunch of couples getting together and living in bliss. I like the mix of big bads and grand storylines and character development. I don’t think about who gets what amount of screentime or what character/pairing the show is focusing on because in general, I sit down for an hour every Sunday and love the ride OUAT takes me on!

Though I consider myself a CSer, it wouldn’t be the end of the world if my ship hadn’t/doesn’t come to fruition. I like that romantic pairing but I definitely do not watch simply for that couple. Actually, Emma isn’t even one of my favorite characters! And I hate the term ‘endgame’. I could care less what happens to my ‘ship or when, as long as the story is good.

[Jenna_B]

Jenna_B wrote:

Sarah_TN wrote:

I hope I get to meet him, and I am close. I’m just two hours away from Nashville. That said, I won’t be going up there unless I hear news that it’s okay for fans to visit the movie set. Meeting Colin would be a dream come true, but nobody’s going to catch me holding onto a fence with my tounge hanging out.

haha, so officially taking bets – who thinks we’re going to uncover a pic of @Sarah_TN leaning over a fence with said tongue hanging out?!

We won’t judge. In fact, we’d do the same

Aaaaabsolutely!!!

[Author]

Posts