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Thanks, @POM, I appreciate that post! (I dunno, folks, I think CS finally won POM over and just might be one of her backup ‘ships! 😉 ) And agreed, POM, Epona & Sweetgrass!
I was accused the other day (once again) of not being upset about Neal’s death because that event allowed my ship to come to fruition. This accusation could not be more wrong. I never thought Neal was competition for Hook, not even for a moment. And not because the writers and creators of the show flat out said Hook was going to love Emma, but because Neal and Emma just didn’t feel like a present-day couple. They did embody the indea that two people can love each other, be separated and still come together to co-parent their child – and in doing so, become wonderful friends. And I loved that about Emma and Neal’s present day relationship. It would have been a wonderful way to really cement the idea that families do not need to look like the 1950s stereotypical nuclear family to actually BE a family. They even showed us the potential for that storyline in 3×15, and then ripped Neal away – uncalled for, I felt! But had Neal not been killed, I am completely convinced CS was where Emma’s romantic storyline was going, and I thought the writers had been making this painstakingly clear since they climbed up that beanstalk. So please, do not accuse me of feeling a certain way, or assume I do feel a certain way, because it helps fuel your anger. ASK ME how I feel about the situation and I’ll give you an honest answer – and if you listen, you might be surprised. The constant OOC, plot hole, fan pandering cries just make those positive feelings I had toward Neal sour…and I’m sure at some point I’ll crack Neal’s own fans will have me going so far as to say “I’m glad he’s gone!” That’s what negativity and spite does.
On a more positive note, though, I will say, I feel like the hiatus is really going to help with the negativity. For some reason my phone always likes to dump me in the SF thread when I come onto this site. My phone has a mind of it’s own and is, apparently a SFer! (ok, or maybe I’m too impatient and try to get to threads before my phone can catch up…) So I end up seeing posts and whatnot and I am starting to see a little less Hook bashing. I’m not going to be offended if there’s Hook-bashing in that thread, it’s understandable and their no holds barred haven just like this is ours. But hopefully if the Hook-bashing can subside in what seems to be the most anti-Hook thread on the site, maybe it can spread to the rest of the forum and to chat over time. And that’s all I really ask – people can say negative things about characters in the spirit of debate in non-shipping threads, but I just want it to be in the spirit of debate and NOT spite.
[adrotate group="5"]I kind of think the Elsa thing might be a misdirection and she ends up playing less of a role than A&E suggest. They were talking in chat about how tackling Frozen at this point might be dangerous because it’s so present in people’s minds…I don’t know if I necessarily agree, but I don’t put it past A&E/ABC to want to incorporate Frozen into OUAT to really milk it…ABC has literally said they plan to ride the Frozen train to the very end. And Frozen is a VERY shiny toy to dangle in front of our boys!
I’m hoping the Star Wars references increase (and with the newest film in production, I wouldn’t be shocked to see it!)…I want Roland to get an EWOK PET! haha
I want more Rumbelle. You don’t pull that kind of whiplash that they pulled in the last 3 episodes with this couple and not devote a good chunk of time to that storyline (I hope). I really want to see Belle lose just a little of the ‘but you’re not bad anymore’ delusion and have to confront just how complex Rumple is. And really deal with the question of how forgiving can one be – where’s the breaking point?
And of course, I want some CS goodness! Give us a few episodes before they start messing with it.
Oh! And more bromance!! I love the bromances, all of them!!
….I just realized, I want to see a lot of stuff in S4….well they didn’t let me know with S3, so maybe I’ll get some of my headcanons realized!!
@Obisgirl, I love Reign too! Except Francis too! I miss Henry already.
Other than Regin, I tend to gravitate more toward the fantastical/paranormal – Supernatural, Sleepy Hollow are favorites. I’m getting into the Originals somewhat. I can’t do Vampire Diaries though.
haha, I’m actually obsessed with shows like Ancient Aliens, Monsters in America, Finding Bigfoot…they are hilariously awesome.
The Mindy Project is probably the only comedy I really watch. It’s fantastic, I’m so glad it got a 3rd season.
In regard to Killian knowing how to dance – likely he learned it as a naval officer. In 17th-ish century society (in our ‘realm’ anyway!) knowing how to dance was of utmost importance if you were an officer. Knowing how to act in polite and high society was practically as important as knowing how to fight, sail a ship and all those other soldier-y duties. Since the EF realm is somewhat like that society, I would think that’s where he would’ve learned how to become a gentleman, developed his code of honor, and learned the waltz! That’s my headcannon anyway.
In regard to the ‘true love’ concept. This is something MP and I were talking about briefly in chat the other day. I think a main theme of S4 is going to be defining the concept of ‘true love’. We’ve defined ‘hope’, ‘family’, and ‘home’, so I think taking on the concept of love and true love is a natural progression for OUAT.
My own personal opinion regarding ‘true love’…I have a hard time believing in the concept of ‘soul mate’ and ‘one true love’. I think each initial pairing did truly love each other, at the time. I think the OUAT definition of ‘true’ love vs ‘truly’ loving someone will center around that very question – does this person bring out the best in the other? The early pairings Surayya mentioned all indicate no, they did not. Which is why they were doomed in some way or another. Had Daniel not died, would he have been as complex and strong a person as Regina will ultimately need in a true love? I don’t know. Milah fed Hook’s pirate side – and we’ve seen that the pirate, nor the officer are the true Killian. The true Killian is somewhere in the middle, and I don’t believe Milah could have loved that person. Rumple and Milah – ok, she was just brutal to him, so yeah, if she didn’t get on Hook’s ship, I think sooner or later she was out of there, it was just a matter of time.
Robin, however, is unafraid to meet Regina at her most fierce. Belle gives Rumple that unconditional love someone as fragile as the ‘coward’ Rumple needs to gain strength without depending on the Dark One. As we saw in the finale, Hook was able to lose himself in his pirate life after Milah died; but when he thought he lost Emma forever, he realized he could not hide behind that mask anymore, and it compelled him to continue working to find the person he truly wanted to be, and that would be worthy of Emma, even if he could never see her again. Those loves are powerful. They don’t diminish the earlier loves – because each early love taught those in the relationship valuable lessons and greatly shaped who they are now. But true love is going to last, is going to support you, and is going to grow and change and encourage each partner to become the best version of themselves.
I have a hard time wrapping my head around the reasons we’ve been given for Neal’s death. The concept is interesting, but I’m not 100% sure about it, simply because I’m not sold on the idea that the death was story driven.
The writers’ handling of Neal was always a little clumsy. They set up some amazing storylines and then just dropped them. And then they killed him in such a manner that felt very unrealistic for this character. Neal turned to dark magic so quickly? After everything he’d been through? I think if they were going to go the turned to dark magic route they needed to show a lot more of Neal’s trying other avenues, because up to that point they wrote Neal as probably the least likely to turn to dark magic, even to get back to his family. Obviously, Neal and Henry’s relationship was rife with potential – Neal didn’t know about Henry until Henry was 11….Henry had lived for 11 years without a strong male role model, and then he got to meet his father. They got into Hook/Bae backstory, which could have made an interesting storyline (and perhaps even shed light on the characters for people who have difficulty understanding one or the other or both)…Rumple and Neal’s storyline was probably the tightest and seemed to be fleshing out well…and then all of a sudden, Neal’s gone. It just seemed too quick, too un-organic, if you will, to really feel real and well planned. And I get the concept of death sometimes happens suddenly and whatnot, but to me, it didn’t feel like that’s what the writers were trying to accomplish with the death (and if they did, I think they missed that mark completely…)
So I like the theory but if that’s what they were attempting with his death, in my opinion, they missed the mark in explaining that concept.
But Emma is a mother, and has fully taken on that role and responsibility. She knows what it would be like to lose a child and I don’t think she would do that to Marian, even if she doesn’t really know her. I think it would’ve been difficult for Emma to make that choice, but I think she would have brought Marian back. But as mentioned, probably not invite her to the baby naming thing before she got a chance to pull Regina aside.
I think Regina’s going to surprise, us, though. I think she’s going to be tempted to revert, but she’s come too far to truly turn to evil. Her last comment suggests that, in my opinion – warning Emma she hoped Emma hadn’t brought anything else back, instead of insinuating Regina is now a threat to Emma. I think Regina, too, would choose Henry over Robin if need be, because she has truly learned what it means to be a mother and love your child wholeheartedly. And I don’t think Regina could put Roland in a situation where Regina actually hurts his mother, at this point in her redemption.
Man, you KNOW the anti-Hook arguments are heated when KJ joins in! He is our peace keeper out in the rest of the forum! 🙂 I just really hope the summer calms people down. If you’re not happy, and think they ruined the show for WHATEVER reason, then the answer is simple! Stop watching! And don’t go on about the ratings, you shouldn’t care if the ratings plummet as a direct cause of your departure! (Oh, and they’re staying right on course so threatened ‘plummet’ is unlikely)
I do find it quite convenient and ironic that cries of ‘plot’ and ‘OOC’ have increased since Neal’s death. I also find it funny. If you want a seamless show with perfect continuity and character development – you’re watching the wrong show (actually, if you find that show, let me know – I want to check it out). OUAT is about telling a fantastical tale incorporating our modern day world. It’s got an enormous cast and crazy storylines. Nothing in it suggests it’s going to be focused on tying up every little bit and spelling out every little thing. OUAT is a show that you enjoy because it completely takes you out of the real world – you sit back and enjoy the ride. If you start focusing on plotholes and inconsistencies and timelines, the only thing you’re going to achieve is a migraine. OUAT also purposely doesn’t waste valuable minutes spelling everything out. Doing that takes away part of the fun – the writers assume their fanbase is intelligent enough to put pieces together and enjoys allowing them to do that. If they told every little detail and spelled out every little thing, 1) Emma and Henry would still be on their way up to Maine from the pilot and 2) it’d take away the fun you can have with headcanons and what-ifs and theories and fanfics!!
Hahaha ok, now they HAVE to include a ‘Welcome to Storybrooke’ conversation between these 2 in the first ep of S4. It’s a must. Someone inform Adam & Eddy.
I’m not necessarily going to lump SF fans with anti-Hook fans. But I will address those that argue both points. The irony is, the anti-Hook/SF fans are incredibly vocal, probably more vocal than those that are pro-SF and don’t really care either way about Hook. Which is unfortunate. Because though I like Neal, I like him far less because of these ‘fans’ who feel the need to bash other characters on the show, especially the one they presume is competition for their character/ship.
The anti-Hook people want to argue that he’s a misogynist and will go as far as to insinuate or incorporate the concept of rape with him. I have enormous issue with this. Those concepts should NEVER be taken lightly. And we’ve discussed this, but I just have GOT to get this off my chest because it’s bothering me to no end, and god knows we’ve been faced with it thoughout the forum/fandom.
Let’s break a little bit of OUAT history down, and do a little math. Emma broke the curse 28 years after her birth. Henry was 10 when he found Emma. So…that means Emma was 18 when she gave birth to Henry. Gestation is approximately 35-40 weeks, so…even if Emma had Henry on the last day of her 18th year, she still was barely 18 when she got pregnant. Which also means Emma and Neal were either together for an EXTREMELY short period of time before she got pregnant, or they got together when she was 17.
We’ve never really been able to pinpoint Neal’s exact age but the general consensus is he’s about early-mid 20s when he and Emma meet. The most common age I’ve seen, based on his wanted poster and whatnot is 24.
Emma: 17. Neal: 24.
What does Neal ask upon their first meeting? He asks Emma, a 17 year old, out for drinks. Is this appropriate? No. She’s underage. He encourages the underage Emma to steal. Appropriate? No. Should a 24 year old know better and be acting responsibly? Yes. They obviously become a couple and participate in, ahem, relations, since a child is concieved in said loving relationship. HE’S 24. SHE’S 17. When you’re 30 and he’s 37, 7 years isn’t too much of an age difference. When you’re 17, I don’t care if you went to church every Sunday with your loving parents and siblings or grew up on the streets – the age difference is ENORMOUS. And completely, utterly inappropriate.And the people who support this relatiomship, rationalize this relationship, argue it’s foundation is perfectly healthy, want to accuse Hook of misogyny and ‘rape’. Now, I’m not stupid. I know the Hook we first met was Captain Innuendo. And he didn’t direct this only toward Emma – he was an equal opportunity…’innuendo-ist’. And he did some pretty nasty things in the name of love and revenge. But he also realized the err of his ways, and consciously made a decision to change and to become a better man. Did that stop him from flirting with Emma? No. Why should it? Flirting – especially between two consenting adults (and to suggest it’s not consenting is nonsense) is not only acceptable, it’s FUN! And a part of modern day courtship! Emma could have said no. And the pirate with a code would’ve backed off. But she didn’t. She consciously included him and incorporated him into her life – in S2 when they left for NL, throughout 3A (I seem to remember a kiss in there somewhere – again, perhaps instigated by flirting but see my prior comment), and in 3B.
Ok. This is ridiculously long. But I’ve tried for so long to try to understand the ‘other side of the coin’ and have seen just a little too much ugly in return. But now it’s off my chest, so I feel so much better. Methinks I will watch our CANON COUPLE go to a ball, do some hiney kicking and true lovin’ with a much lighter disposition. 🙂
I don’t believe this has been posted yet…a hilarious ‘recap’ of the finale…posting the link ’cause there’s language…
http://thelast-thingido.tumblr.com/post/85663881428/ouat-recap-theres-no-place-like-home-3×22
