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I liked this ep a lot! Of course, I’ve liked the season in general so….
Likes –
– Elizabeth Mitchell….didn’t think I’d be saying that. I kind of tuned out of Lost by the time they introduced her so I don’t remember much, and I really disliked her character in Revolution, so when I heard she’d been cast as the Big Bad, I was less than thrilled. But she is really nailing the SQ, I love how she’s making the SQ come off as very distant but then shows moments of warmth break through. It makes her just….creepy on a whole different level than Pan or Zelena creepy.
– Will Scarlet. I didn’t watch OUATWL so I had no idea what to expect, but I’m loving him. It seems, since he was one of the leads in the sister show that he should be more than comic relief – which, to me is what he feels like right now – but I think the show needs light, funny moments to break up the serious storyline, and he’s great fun.
– Emma pushing Regina, and showing her that she’s not going anywhere. I like that Emma recognizes and is giving Regina one of the things Emma has needed most – people in her life that refuse to give up on her. Now that she’s found that, and realizes how important it is, she’s able to be that person for Regina. I like the development of their relationship – they may never be besties, Regina’s right, but they will always be connected, at the very least through Henry. But their son aside, they are two people that on the surface would have nothing in common, but are more similar than they realized. I like that they’re showing one of the things that they really share is that feeling that they have/had no one, and how they can overcome their past and that feeling of abandonment.
Dislikes –
– Regina. I cannot stand her storyline this season. I guess the one thing I never really connected with Regina about is how she reacts when loving her romantic partner (I know, her going all evil was about much more than losing Daniel, but it was a big part of it, of course). I mean, I get it, it stinks, but really? They’ve got her acting like some heartsick kid – she really can barely function because she lost Robin? Really? I didn’t have a problem with OQ getting together so quickly last season, but for her to be this broken this fast definitely feels unrealistic to me. And WHAT was going on with that outfit???
Meh –
– Emma backstory. Yeah, it wasn’t much we didn’t know, and if they don’t come back to that story line, I agree, it’ll seem like it was time wasted…but then, we’ve learned so much about Emma’s backstory by hearing Emma tell it over the last 3 years, I don’t know if there’s much that will shock us when they do show it. But the girl that’s playing young Emma is fantastic, agreed, they really cast the younger counterparts of the characters well. I think I kept waiting for….something more to happen with Lily. Some kind of betrayal, other than ‘yeah I lied because I feel like I don’t belong (what teenager doesn’t?)’.
[adrotate group="5"]I think the angst will be ok though…as much as I’ve loved the first eps of the season, let’s be honest – we’d get kinda bored…eventually! As long as they don’t do the break up, will they-won’t they junk I’ll be ok with the angst. I hate the break up stuff….it’s a way for writers to be lazy while trying to keep the relationship interesting. So if it’s more them trying to figure themselves, and their relationship, out, angst away!
It looks like the posts are working now…well, the vids and links at least.
@emmajones @lumee23 @sweetgrass @polythenepam havent been around in a while either… @Jennifer @CaptainEala @Kelli Adkins @jenven @Aurora @rogvortex58 @moraha @Vanessa @zoeandnimo left last season (along with a flood of others) thanks to all the CS/Hook hate & @rumplegoldfan cant get onto the CS thread- it comes up as hieroglyphics for her … seems this site has been hemorrhaging positive fans
Pssst….Surayya, I think you calling the folks out is working…Jennifer and Lumee came back from the darkness! 🙂 Who’s next? And lurkers who are lurking and haven’t posted – come say hi!Congratulations Lumee! Wonderful news!In regard to the hand, I don’t believe Rumple cursed it. I think Rumple knows exactly how to play Hook…and did so. Although I don’t have the same problems with Hook trying to blackmail Rumple for his hand as others do, I do think Hook got what he deserved. Rumple is the king of manipulation and a guy who’s been hunting him for 300 years should know that! I think it will be interesting, though to see how these men parallel each other…both have a secret from their partner. We know what Rumple will try to do – hide it from Belle as long as possible. But will Hook fall into Rumple’s footsteps or did he learn his lesson last season when Zelena kissy-cursed him? I’d like to think the writers are setting up this little scenario to show how different the men are, and how far Hook as come by having him tell Emma.Honestly, there was so much they could have done with NL and it did go to waste, I agree. There’s really only so much wandering around the same plants in a studio I can put up with! And Robbie Kay as Peter Pan was wonderfully creepy…to me, his backstory deserved to be fleshed out better than it was. I like the season broken up as opposed to episodes scattered but I don’t think that means each half of the season needs to have it’s own villain. It would’ve been fun to see Pan in SB and to get more on all of the characters that were in NL…but I digress.
What I commonly hear from Hook detractors is that while Rumple and Regina have committed so many sins (more so than Hook, and on a larger scale), they can sympathize with them more because they feel that they have faced the consequences for their actions more so than Hook. That’s not to say Rumple and Regina haven’t had actions rug swept, either. I mean I still find it hard to swallow that Belle brushed aside the revelation that Rumple killed his own wife so easily, nor did Belle give Rumple crap about abusing people with his inner darkness when she was being Lacey once she got her memories back.
I guess I should ask this thread what they would like to see of Hook in the future to genuinely buy any redemption arc, if it is even possible? Phee suggested a few vague ideas, but I’m intrigued to see others elaborate. To not start a riot, please don’t simply suggest “Hook can only redeem himself by giving up his life” as an option. I’ve seen it suggested countless of times when the death spoiler of doom was upon us last Winter, and I would rather we don’t revisit that as to not push any buttons. This is something to seriously ponder. Can Hook be redeemed and how far would it take
Completely redeemed? Can any of them be completely redeemed? I don’t really think so. Of course, we’ve also seen no one can be completely good either. I think they – and any character – can find a balance between good and evil. If you’ve gone as dark as Hook/Rumple/Regina have, it’s going to be far harder, and none of them are going to be spewing on and on about hope a la Snowing, but I think all 3 of them are capable of it. It’s a matter of making a conscious decision, and that’s the difference between the 3, in my opinion. Rumple would like to be a good man, the man that Belle knows he can be….but he also is struggling with his fatal flaw – his need for power and magic. He still revels in being the Dark One. I just don’t think he’ll be able to stay in a truly ‘good’ place until he willingly finds a way to give up the power (I know, not supposed to be able to be done until he’s killed…but this is OUAT, there’s gotta be another way!! 🙂 ) Regina’s gone through her redemption somewhat begrudgingly, to me. I think, when Emma came to Storybrooke, Regina realized how much she was missing in her relationship with Henry, and I do believe all of her actions to be better for him are true….but I think when it comes to others and playing nice…well, she’s just getting to the point where she realizes the evil doesn’t have to take over. (I reeeeeally hope this Operation Mongoose stuff causes her to realize she has to write her own happy ending….pleeeeease…’cause otherwise head meet desk). I think Hook is a bit different because he has reached the point where becoming a good person is one of his primary goals right now. He has a vision of the man he wants to be, and I think the more connected he becomes to Henry, the Charmings, etc, those connections will fuel his desire to become what he considers a good man. He needs to get to the point where he’s not just doing it for Emma. However, we have seen, last week (and many other times before) that Hook is a walking pendulum…and he can snap back into pirate mode at any moment. But I think part of his redemption arc is going to be realizing that doesn’t necessarily have to be a bad thing – I think the pirate will come out whenever someone Hook loves is threatened – it’s just a matter of controlling it.
I’m sorry, I had to jump over a decent portion of recent posts, simply because I saw they were comparing characters/ships and I just cannot….if there’s one place I don’t go, it’s comparing the characters to the other. So when I think of any of them and their arc, I’m not looking at who’s more redeemed or redeemable, Hook/Regina/Rumple, I look at each character’s arc and judge my thoughts on that arc alone (as much as I can, I am, admittedly, human!)
I’ll go this far in regard to a possible ‘comparison’…I would like to think more than a few people like both Hook and Neal, or Rumple and Hook. I found myself primarily connected to the potential Neal/Hook storyline, and although I love CS, I was just as intrigued by the Hook/Neal relationship, if not moreso. During S3, it was the story I wanted to know most about, because there was so much setup. And there was so much potential for character development for both characters. So I was very upset/angry when the Spoiler of Doom was announced and then came to fruition because it was throwing away a great character in Neal and a potential ‘bromance’ between Hook and Neal. And I’ve seen many who feel that way. I’d like to think it’s some of the more extreme fans who have to hate on Hook because they like Neal and vice versa – hating a character isn’t really a quality justification for liking another, it’s like saying you hate apples because you like oranges…
I think people also assume because you’re a fan of a character, you’re going to defend them to the end – which fuels the controversy. I love my pirate, but I LOVED seeing Rumple hand Hook his own hiney last week. You do NOT cross Rumple, and I can be a huge fan of Hook and still say he absolutely deserved what Rumple dished out. It was so delightfully Rumple/Hook – Hook may be very intelligent and manage to work the entire dictionary into everyday conversation, but no one has the cunning Rumple has.
In regard to the ‘Hook hasn’t changed’ argument…I think that’s his entire arc this first half of the season…I don’t think Hook ignores his past by any means, nor do I think he’s not apologetic, and shamed by it. I think he has great remorse for the person he was, and a great part of his focus is becoming the good man he knows he has the potential to be. But he isn’t there yet, and he knows it. Saying Hook is only interested in being ‘good’ because he wants Emma is drastically reducing him to a 1 note character. It’s not just for Emma – it’s mostly for himself. It’s because he did have honor, once. It’s because he is learning how to develop friendships again, as he’s doing with Charming. It’s being able to recognize what is good and bad. You have to look past the CS ship and look at Hook on his own to see it, though. So, no, Hook isn’t redeemed – but that’s because that story hasn’t been told yet!! They’ve gotten as far as laying the groundwork for it, there’s only so much you can do at a time.
I think Fav/Least Fav moments can be the one that focuses more on the entertainment/first thoughts, etc, ad then maybe a 2nd thread for critical viewing. Even when watching for entertainment there’s stuff you like/don’t like – hi, the walking broom? Ok now that was a little too out there even for me! – but that’s not necessarily something that needs to only be discussed in a critical forum. There will likely be a lot of overlap, but just the understanding that you’re entering a thread that is going to have more a more critical slant than a broader discussion about the storyline might work well.
I know we have the favorite and least favorite threads, but maybe instead of that, what we need are critical vs entertainment threads – meaning, for each episode, a thread where someone can go to discuss more critical aspects – analyze the current storyline, discuss plotholes, the ethical/moral implications, etc etc etc and a thread that’s more geared toward the entertainment – what you enjoyed about the episode, more broad discussion of the storyline, etc etc. That way the people that want to critique more can in their space, and those that approach the show with more of an escapist attitude can in theirs. I think lots of people would be drawn to both threads (like me!) depending on my moods…because as much as I love the ride, I also do have problems with plotholes etc….but dwelling on both at the same time is almost overwhelming to me.
I don’t necessarily subscribe to the ‘shipping wars are ripping the fandom apart’ argument – I frankly don’t care who you ship, whether it’s canon or not, or even debating them (let’s not though, we don’t need to actually give RG a heart attack! 🙂 ) as long as the participants in discussion can respect each other and their personal choices. Which, especially on this forum, I have seen done. It’s other places, where respect doesn’t seem to be as much of a focus, where the ‘ship wars’ mentality stems from and I don’t think we need to bring it here. For the most part, I think everyone here does try very hard to keep respect and an open mind in the forefront, but, as does happen with a show that’s been on the air for 4 years, people are going to see more to criticize and more to enjoy – so having spots where the purpose is for one kind of discussion or the other might work.
I think all of the server problems aren’t helping matters when it comes to people drifting from the site. Every time I’ve gone on the past few days, I’ve gotten through a few pages and then get errors and can’t get on. It’s frustrating. I think it might also still be doing a lot of background indexing work, but it’s slowed down considerably in the past few months, which makes posting and making sure the post shows right a pain. I end up opening a 2nd tab to check out other sites while I’m waiting…
In regard to the episode, I loved it. I loved how much was contained in the episode. The one when Emma was trapped in the cave seemed a little slow to me, I like episodes like this when it’s like virtual whiplash because so much is going on! haha.
I loved the date, but I thought the Hook/Rumple interactions were perfect. I love how the two play off of each other. And Rumple’s mindgames were great. I love our pirate but he should know better than play like he did with Rumple. Rumple is the King of Mind Games, he’s going to win. Especially when backed into a corner, and especially when it comes to Belle. Personally, I like Rumple best when he’s teetering on this edge, so I’m loving him this season. I admit I’m not as invested in his love story as I am about his relationship/addiction with magic.
I think my favorite part of the episode, though, was – to my surprise – Snow. She seems to finally be successfully marrying Mary Margaret-the friend with Snow White-the mom when it comes to Emma. She was such the excited Mommy before her daughter’s first date and so the excited friend who wanted all the details when Emma got home – and most importantly, she seems to actually be listening to Emma, and seeing for herself how good Killian and Emma are for each other, and showing enthusiastic support. Emma cannot be backed into a corner, and Snow finally seems to be understanding that – and supporting rather than projecting, which is of utmost importance if she’s going to have any kind of relationship with Emma. David’s ‘dad’ routine is precious, and I love how Killian just gave him an indulgent smile, letting David have his Daddy moments when he picked Emma up.
So, I think this question is for someone who doesn’t ‘ship…IS Hook such a divisive character? I mean, I see it, but I’m also a huge Hook fan. So I’m going to notice the negative commentary from the viewership almost as much as I’m going to see the positive. But though I like Regina, I’m not nearly as invested with her, so while I know there are viewers that love her, I don’t really know if those fans experience as much backlash as those that like Hook feel they experience. I would assume they do, or feel they do, simply because that’s ‘their’ character, so they focus more on what’s said about Regina.
No offense to the chart, but I’ve seen them before, and I think stuff like that fuels the animosity toward characters. I happen to not particularly dislike any character, though, so I really don’t care who’s on the screen as long as the story is fun to watch. Breaking things like screentime down and comparing them to the others only makes those that dislike a character getting more screentime something to justify their dislike, which in turn gives those that like the character a bad taste in their mouth, not toward the character in question, but toward the chart and people using it to denounce ‘their’ character.
