[Keb]

*hugs RG tightly* It wasn’t even a namedrop–it was here was her, in love, with the man Hook wanted to claim as a son once, and Colin played it beautifully. I know Hook’s unpopular here, but that…felt to me like a real acknowledgement of both their pasts.

But I did turn to my mother earlier when Will called out Hook on playing up to Henry to get closer to Emma and inform her that I loved Will.

[Keb]

Liked (short version): Belle being adorable with baby Neal.

Disliked (short version): Belle not getting a single line in the entire episode. Yes, yes, I know next week’s her centric, but she’s a REGULAR and she’s being treated as background noise! This is what leads to regulars not even being on the show anymore! DISLIKE DISLIKE DISLIKE!

 

More likes:

–The ice bridge actually made me catch my breath from the pretty.

–Hook seeing the pic of Neal and Emma together and actually registering some emotion about it. Seeing that pic made me pretty emotional, too, Hook dearie.

–Snow writing a whole beautiful story about what Charming didn’t do. It made me laugh and I love how Will just goes along with it perfectly. I do enjoy having Will on the show; I just wish they’d get to how he matters.

 

Dislikes:

–The relationship with Lily was awesome Emma backstory and we’ve had far too little of that, and the actors were great–young Emma is pretty much perfect. But I felt like it wasn’t the most relevant story we could have gotten to pair with the current present arc (I could be wrong, because I have no clue at all where they’re taking us right now), and there is just so much more I want to see (you know, like Belle? More of her would be nice. Any of her would be nice). If Lily was just a one-off character and we don’t see her again in whatever’s up with DQ, it will feel super irrelevant…if she’s still involved later, then I’ll take it back.

–Not only hardly any Belle, but no Henry and this also seemed to be RC’s usual week off. *sigh* I love the other characters, too, and Elsa was awesome, but…I do have my faves. And they didn’t get to play.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

Yeah, that cape is gorgeous.

It’s got to be DQ…unless Cora’s back and up to her old tricks somehow.

I wonder if Regina or Rumple would have any reason to lure Elsa somewhere…but combined with the promo pics it’s got to be DQ.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

I loved Dreamy a lot (maybe because Belle was only in 3 eps in S1…).

The one I’m going to add to this list is Tiny. That one got a lot of hate for being filler, having bad special effects, etc.

But in the midst of almost too much drama, it was the rare episode where someone found a new home and family–a brief happy ending–and where the heroes actually did some genuine heroing. Anton was a fun character and I’d love to see him come back in the future if they come up with a good reason.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

I don’t think it’s that Rumple has no desire to be a hero–he clearly does want to be a better man for Belle on some level, as he’s said so, in private, to his son’s grave, as well as publicly where his motives are more questionable. But even in his most heroic moment, he never believed he actually COULD be a hero–as he was sacrificing his life to save everyone, facing down his greatest fears, he declared that he was a villain and villains don’t get happy endings. He hasn’t believed anyone could truly love him since Cora dumped him (and he still seems to lack faith that Belle truly can DESPITE the bit of hope he’s got that compelled him to marry her etc–if he really believed 100% that he was worthy of her love, he’d quit lying to her. But he doesn’t.)

Rumple knows he’s not a good guy and while he’s happy to hide his crimes in the dark, he seems to recognize that most of them WERE wrong. His rare apologies (at least in the present) come off as sincere. And his worst crimes generally come back to bite him in the end, and we see that–even now, while he’s got his “happy ending,” it’s without his son and with this shadow of the dagger hanging over him like a bomb that’s going to explode it any second and we all know it. He knows it, too–or he wouldn’t have made a single deal with Hook.

Regina, meanwhile, has paid a lot of consquences for her wrong actions, no denying, but is in her own words without regret. Even while she’s saving people and being miserable, she’s still doing evil queen things behind the scenes with Sidney and possibly even Operation Mongoose. But she has apologized believably for at least some of her crimes…

Hook’s recognized that when he tried to go back to piracy it a) didn’t feel right to him anymore and b) he did some bad stuff. But when Emma asked him about it, he just covered it up until she was like, meh, whatever, keep your secrets, you’re still hot. She briefly lost trust in him over the kiss thing (rightfully so), but that’s about the biggest thing he’s had to confess to her, and he didn’t until his hand was forced. (To be fair, Rumple and Regina aren’t exactly forthcoming to their loves either.)

But he also seems to believe, as Regina did in S2, that changing is simple. That seems to be where his arc is right now. Rumple doesn’t believe he CAN change, but he’s at a point where he thinks maybe–just maybe–he can be happy and have it all. Regina’s in  a backslidey place where she thinks she’s changed a lot but it hasn’t done her any good at all, so she’s looking for another way–easy fixes.

They’re all at different points on their individual redemption arcs. And while Hook’s done fewer very horrible things on screen (he’s only successfully murdered 4 people on screen, by my count, compared to literally a whole village for Regina + another ten individuals, and 17 for Rumple now–but he’s certainly threatened and attempted to kill people, including his lady love, a lot more and quite believably), he’s aiming to be the true love of True Love incarnate–he’s got a long way to go yet.

Since I’m mainly a Belle fan, I guess I tend to measure the villains on how they treat her :p All three of them have wronged her, all three have apologized at some point to her. Hook’s was a meh-have-to-cuz-Emma’s-watching apology; I did not get the slightest impression he was at all sorry for hurting & nearly killing Belle. Regina’s apology was a bit desperate–I-need-your-help-so-I’m-sorry but she actually did seem sincere and was offering to actually help Belle in the same moment. Rumple keeps screwing up in ways that hurt her, but when he apologizes his whole dang heart is breaking…so I believe him most even if he’s being a jerk to her right now.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

Well, he’s always been driven by love…but every single time love’s come up against power as a choice for him, he’s chosen power–even if he regretted it later (and generally he does).

Love drove him to lame himself for his son, and to make the choice to seize power to save him. But the moment he actually had power (after a lifetime of being denied it, by his father, by his wife, by his village), he was drunk on it–Bae’s reaction to Dark One Rumple shows just how quickly that first taste of power changed him.

And almost every time it’s been a choice between love and power since then, he’s chosen power, because he’s afraid to go back to the impotent coward he once was. He’d rather be a coward with his safety blanket of power around him.

He chose the dagger over Bae (and yes, instantly regretted it and spent lifetimes trying to get back to his son).

He chose his power over Belle (and was miserable immediately, and moreso when led to believe she was gone forever).

He could have gone immediately to find Bae without magic when the curse was broken. Yet, once again, he chose power. (And it’s telling that he even delays a proper reunion with Belle to get his power back–he tells her he loves her, and there will be time for everything later–ha!–but first he has to do something.)

There are only two (and a half) times we’ve actually seen him choose love over power: when he sacrificed his life to stop Pan, when he gave up the dagger to absorb Neal, and when he ever-so-briefly gave Belle back the dagger before he found the hat. And all of those were difficult, big things for him.

He’s addicted to power, and for a coward who was once as powerless as he was, it makes sense. I think he’s still driven by love underneath it all, which may yet save him in the end, but he is so afraid that if he doesn’t have power he’ll lose what he loves (and the evidence of his early years all verifies that in his mind), that he can’t give up the addiction.

(Oh, the evidence: Hook takes his wife. He’s powerless to even fight for her. The Duke wants to take his son for the war. If he hadn’t become the Dark One, he would’ve lost Bae then. He DID lose Bae when Zelena had the dagger, making him powerless in effect. He’s got LOTS of mental evidence that he needs power to protect Belle (who might well have died of gunshot wound if he hadn’t had magic, among other things), as well as to protect himself.)

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

I often feel like the rare person who likes both Hook and Neal. I suspect there IS a strong correlation between Neal fans and Dearies–if one loves Rumple, it’s hard not to have affection for the people he loves (how many Dearies aren’t also Rumbellers? Seriously?)

But I’ve always found Hook to be a fun villain. He is handsome, played by a talented (and utterly adorably geeky) actor, and tends to bring out interesting (if sometimes frustrating) sides of Rumple. He’s also got excellent brochemistry with David that’s just fun to watch. The way he switches sides makes him less predictable (unless he’s being a puppy for Emma) and so I generally enjoy having him on the show.

But I also love Neal, and still hold out hope that he’ll return somehow. Neal’s death felt like the end of Rumple’s possibility of a happy ending as well as Henry’s–and it really did feel like the only in-show purpose was to force Emma to choose Hook when she would have chosen Neal given enough time. (One reason I hate the current OQ plot is that the most likely resolution seems to be kill off Marian so Robin doesn’t have to choose anymore. Ew.) It takes away from Emma’s choice if, you know, one of her choices is dead. (And he was her true love at least once. Belle said as much.)

Beyond that, Nealfire’s story was one of the most tragic in the series–a good man who was willing to sacrifice everything, multiple times, for the people he loved, and he couldn’t find a happy ending? That hurt a lot–which is why I’m still clinging to a thread of hope that his story isn’t really finished.

I think there’s likely a split between Rumbellers and CSers (I’ve seen something like that on Tumblr here and there), partly because Hook and Rumple are set up as enemies from the start and both have seriously harmed the other in, let’s face it, cruel and violent ways. For those who like Hook and dislike Rumple, killing Milah was probably unforgiveable; for those who like Rumple and dislike Hook, shooting Belle–okay, that was pretty bad.

So for someone who likes both characters, that’s a lot to resolve (and I find both those moments difficult and cringeworthy to watch). Bad Hook. You tell Belle you’re sorry. Again. Now. (And maybe if it’s Hook talking to her, they’d let her be on the show? Oh, that’s another reason that Rumbelle fans might not be CS fans–Hook’s screentime vs Belle’s when they joined regular cast about the same time and are both beautiful, fascinating characters so what gives?) Ahem.

The love triangle was a big deal but I think it maybe comes down to what other characters you really like in the show and whom you identify with. I identify most with Rumple and Belle (no question) so maybe picking Neal or Hook over the other isn’t as important to me as it is to others…though I definitely like Hook better when he’s not kissing Emma. (Constantly. Get a room, guys.)

I do think that there is a lot of discussion in the fandom of various character’s relative badness–Regina, Rumple, and Hook often get compared. I don’t quite get how Neal gets compared to any of them (save for some fairly set up parallels between him and Rumple and him and Hook during the stupid triangle), but if they were normal people in our world just about everyone in Henry’s family would be in jail. Like, still in jail. (Almost all of them have been at some point, as it happens–I have a spreadsheet on it.) Everyone but Belle & Neal has killed someone, including Emma if Mal’s actually dead, half of them were professional thieves at some point in their lives, and Emma and David seem to think that being co-sheriff means they are exempt from even Storybrooke’s laws.

Mind you, they’ve also fought ghosts and trolls and dragons…so…

But I think Hook is divisive because he’s set up to be rival to a third of Henry’s family, in love with another third, and used by the last third. Hate and love are both really strong feelings, and no matter what other characters you like…well, they’ve had reasons to love or hate Hook (or both). So it’s really easy to have polarized feelings about him.

Even within one fan like me (loving Hook, disliking CS).

 

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

I do. I do giggle hysterically. I did when I read that :p

We have a lot of creative people here…I’m wondering if maybe a round-robin story project could be a fun group thing.

I do agree that we’ve got a valuable community here (of clever, creative people who all love(d) the same show) and it is heartbreaking when it feels like we’re either shouting past each other or treading on thin ice. So I’m all for the suggestion that we branch out of criticism and discussion and embrace each other’s strengths beyond that.

More fan art celebration. Maybe some roleplaying if people are into that?

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

Well, I haven’t gotten to S4 on my timeline yet, but I look for a lot of things. They tend to drop a line here or there like “she tried to kill us yesterday,” and clothing changes can be useful too.

But here’s the thing: A&E have all but said they don’t really care about precision with the timeline. They clearly have an order of events in their head (and possibly on paper somewhere) but they’ll have some things in the show act like it’s only been a few hours while other things happening simultaneously should take at least a week between events. It’s confusing and frustrating.

I have a feeling that in their heads it’s been several weeks or possibly a couple of months since Neal died, and almost as long since the little prince was born. But all the indicators of the show suggest that it’s been days at best, based on Elsa’s storyline. She hasn’t been in town for weeks, and she came just days after the death/birth (which were only a couple days apart, if I’m estimating right).

So even though I will at some point lay down a date and say this is pretty close, your guess is honestly as good as mine. They’ve done this before, like in S2 when the beans (that take 100 years in giant land) grew almost overnight even though they made out like it was weeks and weeks–but other events were clearly happening at a day-by-day pace.

And it’s hard for them to not feel like more time has passed than they’re allowing; it takes a month or so to produce a single episode (a couple weeks’ filming, and a couple weeks of CG and post production stuff), and then we see each ep with a whole week between if we’re not binge watching on Netflix a year later. So for both the creators and the audience, a LOT of time passes between each episode and so some stuff (like the beans) feels plausible even if the bloody dialogue itself doesn’t allow for it.

Chalk it up to magic where needed. The baby’s probably older than he should be. He has to be played by an older actor anyway (there are regulations about how young an infant can work). So unless they say it in the show, they aren’t tied down to anything.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

I’m still waiting for his adventure with Belle to the underworld to rescue Bae. (Teeny part of me won’t give up the idea. I’m sorry.)

My mother just binge-watched most of S2 and S3 over the weekend while she was working on craft kits. I told her how sad Neal’s death made me cuz she’d finally seen it, and she was like, yeah, but they’ll bring him back. It’s Once, nobody dies for good…

And that kinda broke my heart too, because that’s how a normal viewer who isn’t drowning in spoilers and Adam’s twitter and all that sees things. It just doesn’t make sense for him to be truly gone.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Author]

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