[Keb]

…holy smokes I was only 5 days off on Zelena’s birthdate.

(I had decided to go with the airdate, which was April 20th, of the episode we see her birth in, 318…but still. I’m kinda pleased. I’ll hang onto that date as the date of her adoption then.)

[Keb]

Maurice is in this one! YAY!

And the whole forbidding thing…it needs to come from HIM if it’s going to work out.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

Like I said, he’s going to have to prove somehow that he’s not going to go all hat-sucky if he’s going to keep the power.

And I’m not sure how he’ll do that, especially given that he just tried to kidnap a baby and rekilled Milah at Hades’ behest.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

I’m not sure whether to trust him or not, but it definitely felt sincere on his side. And I think Zelena wants it to be true, but still doubts her own lovability too much to return the affection at all. If it does work out…I’m kind of excited to see where it goes. But it also has shades of Rumple and Cora…two people who see themselves in the other, who deeply want to be loved but are also attracted to power over all else. And who together would only exacerbate their more criminal tendencies.

(I’m not even sure what to call Hades’ “murders” since the people are already dead….)

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

Thanks 🙂

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

Oh, I agree. But that’s where my head was when I said that. Belle is never going to be the absolute first and only priority in Rumple’s life, regardless of whether it’s a good conflict (his children) or a bad one (the power). And that is the thing that she has to accept or not.

As for his taking it back, I would say that he never chose to relinquish the power–it was taken from him, forcibly, while he was in a coma. (It was that or die, but still.) So what we haven’t seen from him since S3 is his actually giving up the power. He has not made that choice, so it’s not really backsliding–it’s just failing to take advantage of the opportunity he was given.

I still believe he is ultimately going to have to make that sacrifice for this to work, as part of HIS arc. But for the Rumbelle arc, it may not have to go that far for it to still be (reasonably) healthy for them to be together.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

Keb wrote:

She may have to accept not being his sole top priority (she was willing to accept that his child came first, actually, so she is capable of that).

I was with you until this. I think there’s a world a difference between accepting that your husband is going to put their child first (and I’d argue that most married couples would agree that’s perfectly in line with reality) and making power (the drug on this show) a top priority. I don’t know that Belle should have to compromise that/accept that. Even if the power doesn’t make Rumple hurt people and is being used for something more altruistic, it’s still power (read: drug) over her. And that’s where I’m struggling to find this middle ground because I don’t know how a human being accepts being a tied number one in the heart of their significant other when the thing you’re tied with is a drug.

Quote

I agree that it’s been mainly treated as a drug/addiction in the show, but in this particular case I was reading it as more like someone who loves both her career and her spouse and is being asked to choose between the two.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

I think BOTH of them are right, but they’re also at an impasse and they’re both going to have to bend a little to make it work.

Rumple is right that Belle needs to accept him, as is, and stop trying to change him. He’s right that she’s attracted to the beast as much as the man–her time as Lacey (which was manipulated by Regina but still reflected parts of who Belle is/could be, just as the other personalities in Storybrooke do), and the fact that Belle truly loved him when he was at almost his worst in the Enchanted Forest, demonstrate.

But Belle is also right that she cannot condone his worst behaviors, no matter how much she loves him. Her principles are perfectly valid. She doesn’t want to have to compete with power for his affection, a contest she’s lost more than once, and she doesn’t want to be an enabler for murder or slightly lesser cruelties. She may find the darkness and power attractive (I think Rumple was absolutely right about that), but it is also at odds with her principles about heroism and, yanno, helping people instead of hurting them.

I think they could come to a reasonably healthy middle ground though. Rumple is going to have to acknowledge that Belle’s (as were Baelfire’s) concerns about him abusing his powers and hurting people are completely valid, and demonstrate that he is capable of using the darkness for good (as Emma and Merlin suggest someone could) without harming innocents. You know, like babies that he’s brought to the Underworld…

Belle, meanwhile, is going to have to accept the things she’s been denying–like that when Rumple was trying his hardest to be good, even as herself and not as Lacey, she was actually more willing to reject him. (With fair reason, but still–she seems to want the Dark One too, however much she denies it.) We know from the mirror scene in 4A that she has a lot of insecurities and denial issues, conflicts between what she sees/knows and what she believes/wants to believe. She’s an idealist, and that makes her harder on both herself and Rumple. She is going to have to give up some of her idealism, not all of it, and learn to accept Rumple as a whole person, and accept within herself that she’s done that over and over again in the past.

She does NOT have to accept his continuing to hurt people to do this. She never did, except as Lacey, and that is OKAY. She may have to accept not being his sole top priority (she was willing to accept that his child came first, actually, so she is capable of that). But likewise he will have to demonstrate that he no longer WILL hurt innocent people.

But I’m thinking of the Tale as Old as Time song now. “Then somebody bends, unexpectedly.” If they both do, there’s hope. If Rumple sticks to his line of “This is who I am,” Belle will never be able to accept that, as it includes deceit, murder, and kidnapping babies for potentially nefarious purposes. And as much as I love both of them and love them together, I can’t wish for Belle to compromise her deepest principles–they are what make her wonderful. Rumple needs to accept that, too.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

Well. Rumple loves Belle AND the dagger, or at least the power it gives him. And he was completely honest with her about that, the baby deal, and why she and Baby Hood are suddenly in the Underworld.

Belle is upset, as happy as she was at the thought of having a child with him, which makes perfect sense.

So how much truth is there in the idea that she loves both the man and the beast, that when she accepts that, it will be okay for Rumple to be whatever man he’s become at this point?

I think it does go along with what we’ve been shown…she fell in love with him when he was almost at his most evil, and while she has never supported his hurting others or lying (save when she was Lacey), she’s also never been as attracted to him when he was going for All Good (this includes her time as Lacey, which seems to have come from some aspect of herself as the other Storybrooke personas did). I think she could settle for a menacing imp who doesn’t actively hurt people…but he’s going to have to compromise as much as her for that to work.

The one thing that seems a barrier to that is Rumple’s insistence that he’s not going to change at all…I think that he still has this desire to be a hero, but doesn’t believe it does him any good anymore. And I think that it’s healthy to realize that you cannot make people change–Belle is still naive enough to believe she could. You have to decide whether you can accept who they are or not, and that’s the choice he’s presented to her.

But I don’t think she CAN just accept him as is. Nor do I think she wants to let go of him to adhere to the principles that she believes in. I think they’re both going to have to bend a little for this to work–he’s going to have to show her that while he may be the Dark One again, he’s going to use his power in positive ways and stop with the murdering, and she’s going to have to recognize that her love for him has to include accepting his darker side and dark past as part of what makes Rumple Rumple. She’s been able to see that occasionally, but just as she was deep in denial about things she coudldn’t accept in 4A (the mirror scene shows this), she’s been in denial about how she loves her husband…I think Rumple spoke the truth, and maybe he has learned a thing or two.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Keb]

Mulan and Aurora said it: Love is sacrifice. Every pairing that’s had an on-screen TLK (I’m not sure what to make of Papa Jones’ story) did it when both had demonstrated a willingness to sacrifice for the other (Belle and Rumple too–he gave up his maid and the pleasure of her company so that she could have her freedom, and she chose to give up her freedom to save him from his curse–not as obvious as fighting dragons and eating apples to save the other’s life, but it’s there). It’s one big reason I believe that Swanfire is/was 100% True Love–they demonstrated that willingness at several points in their relationship.

Hades, on the surface anyway, seems to have that willingness. If it’s not a trick, if what we saw of his affection for Zelena was all true, then yes, he’s treating her way better that some of the other couples have. Zelena, however, isn’t there yet with him.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

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