[kfchimera]

Whatever the showrunners say, the truth is if there were some issues they wouldn’t talk about it, not if it could be hushed up, that’s not how TV goes, not when a show is on the air.

Backstage Drama on TV

I also read that One Tree Hill, for which A&E wrote, was originally supposed to be more about the Basketball than the soap drama, but that was CW. They are awfully teen soap.I watched a few episodes and the basketball angle wasn’t so big, more just a high school drama thing. I read about various shows where the network changed huge aspects of the show, sometimes from concept to production, but sometimes in reaction to a character gaining popularity (and sometimes popularity with teens). The whole term “breakout star” often reflects that kind of thing happening. LOST had many bts dramatic things happen.
Just look at another sad father/son story, Michael and Walt…. That spoils part of LOST if you haven’t watched the show. Midway down, Perrineau talks about how he was disappointed with the way the writing went, and that he felt it was (gasp) fan pandering. He didn’t feel bitter at the producers, because he was grateful they had a diverse cast as they did, but it’s one of those things where he’s wondering about society itself.

So maybe it’s not some event, but just a more generalized thing about our society, that played in with how the writers adjust each “arc”‘s focus.

Maybe A&E’s vision was dark and twisty, Villains get their happy Ending or maybe it was a sweeter show of good over evil, as a triumph of true redemption and family but there’s a serious disconnect in S1 to now.

S1 we had Archie and Red, two characters who were recurring and mainly supporting Snow and Henry’s stories. Many stories involved filling in details of Rumple or Regina’s lives, so its not like that wasn’t a focus, but those lives intersected other characters who crossed path with Emma and Snow and Charming on a regular basis (or implied regular basis). Now we have one-offs like Rapunzel, or Ariel, characters we never will see again I’m fairly sure.

Was S1 more heavily “training wheels” for a style ABC wanted, and S2 more what the writers wanted, and S3 what the biggest majority of vocal fans wanted? I have no idea. What I know is the show I started watching had Henry as its heart, and what I am watching now seems to have Hook in that role, and I don’t think he fits there. This isn’t about shipping so maybe its the wrong thread, but I don’t think Neal would have fit in the heart either. It should be Henry and Emma.

I feel we’ve had so few scenes of Henry and Emma, together. Henry didn’t even appear at the Rumbelle wedding did he? So much for establishing he’s Rumple’s grandson. We’re supposed to forget about that now I think. Instead of heart to hearts with Emma and Snow, we get a few strained conversations, but Emma’s main screen time is either with Regina or Hook. She hasn’t had many scenes with Rumple at all! Due to insistent fans, Belle finally gets some storyline and even gets acknowledgement of past wrongs done to her–but I’m assuming her entire reconciliation with Mo is off-screen. Did they even address Ruby and Belle’s friendship at all, in any way? Belle could have used a maid of honor, but hey, its not like she’s a real character worth using their limited filming time with a guest star doing the producers a favor to return.

We’re supposed to forget a LOT. For a show named “Once Upon a Time’ and the twists and turns of the past to the future, we’re supposed to forget magic rules, plot and grievances between characters.

I have a feeling a LOT of next season might depend on who gets cast as Elsa, and if its either of the original stars, well it might depend on what they want to do. Anything from a one episode only to guest-star arc. I just have this feeling the writers are just sort of adrift on a raft, on an ocean of fan reaction, trying to stay afloat.

[kfchimera]

Corbin, great big hugs,  and I am glad this place gives you some solace and comfort when you need it.

I feel the same about the forum, but I feel I need a new show to discuss.  I think I want to avoid the whole speculation angle but I enjoyed hearing others views and excitement, like a book club but for tv.  I love fantasy and scifi, but the light, hopeful kind that reminds you there is good in the  world.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Warning: this is very Tent of Doom:

I’m taking a ride on the conspiracy train, back to the Tent of Doom, after MRJ nodded to on the Waterfront–a story about a guy forced to lose a fight because of corruption and unfair dealing.

The writers are very “both sides of their mouth” about saying they had a story, but they had to leave room for creativity. They’re so sinuously creative with the words they pick and choose, that its hard to really know what they even mean–if they even mean anything other than: We’ll do what we must to keep our show on the air. We can’t plan ahead.

They may not follow polls, but I think they know which side of the bread the butter goes. More than that though? I don’t think they do have deep plans. I think it was disturbing in the last interview when they talked about how they felt like taking another toy off the shelf so now we get Frozen. I felt this moment I do with my children–NO, put the other toys away FIRST, then take another! That’s why their story is off kilter, they are like children grabbing at the shiny stuff, and while at first there’s fun and whimsy in that, eventually its chaotic and contradictory, because there’s a lack of cohesion in the story.

So in a story about “hope” and “second chances”–and True Love–we have a fan base actively rooting for Marian to die. I see people in chat just casually thinking this way, and odds are they are right. We won’t see Roland or Robin’s feelings on it–just Regina’s, and that’s all that matters to these fans and the show writers, just Regina. I however think there’ll be something even worse than a fast death for Marian, because I’m that cynical.

I think Emma will “set things right” by convincing Robin he doesnt’ “have” to stay with his wife, when he’s in love with Regina. So much for commitment, True Love trumps all! “You don’t have to stay together for your kid, just because you once loved each other, doesn’t mean you still do! I saw you and Regina…”etc. There’ll be enough subtext flying around that Emma is worried about Regina that SQ folks will be happy, even as CS/OQ fans are cheering on Robin and Regina’s eventual back-on-track romance. The only ones who will lose? Once again, those of us who kind of CARE about the side characters, morals, and things like that. Now don’t get me wrong–if they showed Robin and Marian as mismatched, not in love, I realize there’s love to be found in different family situations, that sometimes people aren’t right for each other. No one should be miserable for their kids, and I think if you love your kids, its healthier for all for happy coparenting from separate households, than miserable cohabiting, lots of arguments and such.

Yet it won’t be TOLD on screen why Robin and Marian suddenly mean zip to each other. And the way it is written, they will probably be used as proof that even if Neal lived, that Emma wouldn’t have wanted to be with him. I’m sure she’ll end up saying that more or less. I don’t know why, but I feel like there’s someone in the writers room who isn’t just content to tell the story of why Hook and Emma belong together now–but who HATES that anyone ever rooted for Neal and Emma.
The writers are retconning things left and right–literally changing the history of their own story!–and for some reason, I am worried they’re not done dumping dirt on Neal.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

We need this:

Here come bad news talking this and that, yeah,
Well, give me all you got, and don’t hold it back, yeah,
Well, I should probably warn you I’ll be just fine, yeah,
No offense to you, don’t waste your time
Here’s why

Sometimes its the sad love stories that are the most touching, the ones that never let go of your heart. Titanic, Romeo and Juliet, and oh, a dozen other stories that didn’t get the happy ending, the fairy tale and odd as it is, its proof enough THIS IS NOT A FAIRY TALE. This is a story of how Villains get to win. That’s it. For that to happen, it means that good people have to lose. It’s a tragedy. There may be happiness to be found, for the villains, and to varying extents, I see they are “earning” their way there, but at what cost to other characters in the story? It’s like a story at odds with itself, like Dr. Horrible Sing Along Blog which isn’t TRYING to tell a comic book story in a traditional “heroes save the day” way. Imagine if it was marketed as such? It would be a lot less entertaining rather than a sardonic take on things.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Well Hook’s loyal to Emma, so totes ok if he has no loyalty to all the men loyal to him, as we saw in SB when he gave Smee the brush off, just before demanding Ol’ Smee risk his life to save Henry on a tugboat to NY. Who cares about rat Smee, right? No one loves him so therefore, he’s free to be killed, transformed, or abused in whatever way, just like Archie really except fans like ARchie so he gets a little plot armor, just you know, not enough to give him a story again. Archie was ONCE a regular, remember that? Now he gets a cameo now and again.

Honestly, with how odd Emma has been, I’d almost prefer the writers bring Neal back and put him with Ruby. Ruby’s true love in the graphic novel was Graham. Emma kissed Graham. Emma once loved Neal. Soaptastic!? Oh gods yes, but here’s the thing, its the best of both worlds. Nothing changes that for original Neal, Emma was it, TRUE LOVE. New Neal though? For all we know, he IS Graham, in some time wimey hijinks (depending on if Jamie can film or not)–and see, what happened is Rumple originally in time iteration 1.5 hide Neal’s reincarnated self back in time and hid him with wolves but with more timey-wimey criss crosses, oh it doesn’t make sense but who cares, we get Neal as Graham and there, done.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

I think it’s beyond odd that magic beans popped into existence out of nowhere, rather than Hook having to destroy the JR to get “Enchanted Wood Magical Ashes” to make a portal in Lake Nostos ala Cora. Or perhaps he could have made a “cabinet” of sorts, surely a pirate like him knew another woodcarver like Gepetto. Had they done that, it would have felt more “well-plotted” and consistent with earlier storytelling, and of course, been a grander sacrifice as the ship would be GONE. Imagine if he had to either melt down the compass they’d stolen from the giant or use it as a magic doorknob, with the door vanishing once used? It just would have been more imaginative, more romantic, and more of a call-back to Hook and Emma’s story together. Instead we get beans out of nowhere, plus bonus, the JR is out there, just waiting for Hook to steal it back as he did from Blackbeard, which lowers the degree of sacrifice.

Of course, lowered sacrifice is kind of a theme, what with Regina’s great big separation from Henry lasting a year, without her having to sacrifice anything huge to really reunite with him, such as if she’d had to actually erase all knowledge from everyone of her having been Henry’s mother, ever. Of course, that’s sad for Henry but not really, as we see with Neal, all he needed to be told is he had an adopted mother, and she died a hero!

I am so cynical though, that I truly believe if fans wanted Neal, if the tumblrs demanded it –the writers could easily find a way to reveal Rumple didn’t drink that potion after all. That is totally in synch with the BTF movies. That he did some sleight of hand, or even had already consumed a memory preserving potion on time release designed to change only the events leading up to Neal’s death from being split apart. Yet I don’t think it would happen short of Tumblrs demanding it.

I wonder what would happen if they’d recast Neal. I know some of you would hate it, but I feel it almost sort of fits into this world to happen. Neal is who Bae grew into, after a lifetime of rough experiences, but if Rumple were to bring his son back, in a sneaky, sneaky way, well, some magical transformation might be involved to bring him back from vault of good into a new body, one more “tumblr” ready perhaps. Afterall, Rumple knew how to turn people into puppets, perhaps he studied the secret of how to reverse that, and make enchanted wood into a body? Hm, the JR is out there as I just said. Wouldn’t that be fitting for Hook to steal back the JR, and for its wood to be sacrificed for Neal to return? Plus it makes Rumple keeping those puppets more purposeful and less just creepy.

There are so many good actors cut loose after all the cancellations of various TV series, there’s more than a few I’d happily accept as “Bae Reborn”. The original Wheel of Time series, though it has been AGES since I read it, did feature reincarnation as well. The third book is called “The Dragon Reborn” and literally, it reveals the Champion of Light (hm, Neal means Champion) must be reborn to destroy the Dark One in each new pattern. I’m not sure to what extent OUAT is trying (or was trying) to loosely bring in themes from WoT, but I’d say given popular culture, wouldn’t be odd for them to incorporate more of that story for when they’re ready to really touch the Dark One mythology. Game of Thrones is quite popular, and among High Fantasy readers, these two series are often comapred (but I think personally GoT superior). There was for a time, interest in bringing WoT to TV as a miniseries but it never worked out.

It’s quite funny as I never completed reading Wheel of Time, actually felt about it much as I am with OUAT. I saw the potential but I grew quite disenchanted with each book due to various plot holes, characters being left underdeveloped and other things, and I stopped reading. The author who wrote it died actually before even completing the work! I like books by the new author, Brian Sanderson, picked to finish it, but never got around to reading Sanderson’s take on the series as I’ve largely forgotten it until it came up on here as a comparison.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Shatner had a “Spatner” with Carrie Fisher on “May the 4”. He tweeted “your princess has abandoned you”. She responded with snark. He responded with more Snark. I dont’ know if it goes further back, but they’re both a bit outspoken.

The sad part is, people thought it was “cute” and they should “kiss and make up”. I bet people started “shipping” them in real life. I didn’t read enough tweets to see if anyone actually SAID it, but that’s our culture. If someone is snarky, must be love. Couldn’t possibly be they’re being a bit of a jerk, right?

I don’t blame SHatner for saying what he did, and having read Fisher’s book, well, she’s….got issues. We’ll leave it at that.

All that aside, I have to agree, that if Hook HAD a bean or knew where to get one at the cost of his ship, um, why wasn’t that a thing he’d have done before it was a DARK CURSE IS INCOMING emergency? Holy Plot Hole, and bad writing.

I do think the writers don’t care anymore. That right there is a HUGE sign they don’t, plus the other big theme in Frozen? “Let it go”–maybe they’ve just let it go about telling their story. They had a chance in WL to do what they wanted, without fan reaction and its done. It wasn’t rated as high as the main show but it also had FAR stiffer competition time slot wise.

As for the writers, Chambliss for example has a new SEVEN figure deal someone reported, and holy smokes. So maybe the original “team” is sort of checking out on their writing staff, and letting the ones who do the ship and soap stuff just run rampant. ABC wants that, as its the meat of their other shows. I enjoyed Agents of Shield, but sort of worried that will go south fairly soon. The best twist and writing happened because of things in the movie franchise, perhaps not the intended direction of the writing staff.

Anyway I had other thoughts but those will have to wait!

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

I just watched the Emma and Neal scene, and OMG, “all about the tumblers”. Ie all about the tumblers online fans…Was it meant to be jarring?

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

So I just want to understand a few things:

1) Time was not a completely closed loop, but they chose not to save Neal, but inadvertently, saved Marian?
So then, instead of being as centered on Henry, both Regina and Emma are worrying about their romances? Was that scene with Henry in the background sort of a thing, where you see Henry leaving or was he the center of the scene, visibly upset?

2) How did Emma get her magic back or did she?

3) Did they show the pendant at all or not?

I didn’t expect them to bring Neal back, because I was in the tent of doom, but I did expect them to tease it a little and pull the football away like Lucy with Charlie Brown. The real question I have is–would you say they were really going for “closure” or more like bittersweet, everything isn’t awesome? OQ is in shambles, Rumple lied to Belle, and well, Henry feeling upset and running off could spell trouble, plus new villain on her way.

I’m curious about it all, how much would general audience types feel unsettled versus “Oh yay! So close to happy endings!”.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Well, Rumple wants Bae, not Neal.  Gepetto got Pinocchio back, not August.  That is what I think they will do, eventually if enough Rumple fans complain who are not Rumbellers who secretly think as Pan did, that he should just make a new child and move on.  I am sure most Rumbellers do not think quite like that, wanting to erase Milah and Cora from Rumple’s romantic history, but I have seen a few comments that people would not be displeased by that sort of downplaying either.  Outside this thread, who cares about Neal as Neal rather than as a character for another in the story’s sake?  Rumple getting back his boy, not the man he was forced to grow into, is more in line with what Rumple wanted.  As for Henry, he will get two step papa so… “NBD” for most fans.   Epic wish fulfillment for everyone except fans of Neal.

 

Never mind they had Neal stare at Emma in the crystal ball using the power of love, that he says he will fight for her, that the pendant survived.  Vestiges of a story they are no longer telling.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

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