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Adorable Bison and if you name him Puck, well we might work that in to the Tent of Doom mottos, like “What the actual Puck, that makes no sense”.
Still the tent of hope called me a little, so as I’m of multiple minds anyway (little chimera!) I decided to watch 316. I found it not as horrible as I feared, but Mader overacts, plus there are so many plot holes that don’t make sense. Well if that’s the way it goes, is there a way to still have Zelena be Grace’s mother because I need something even more absurd to call a crack theory because its getting hard to separate the crack fan stuff from what’s happening on the show.
Anyway, the tents are totally awesome.
[adrotate group="5"]“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I feel like I have to live up to my avatar here. I’ve popped a head into each tent.
The cute little baby lion is tired, but curling up in the Tent of Hope, dreamily thinking that maybe “the Trolls” are playing a long con of some sort here, their usual semantic games. Perhaps MRJ will not be returning as a regular, and “Neal” IS dead, but Baelfire will return with MRJ as a guest star NEXT season after the timey-wimey stuff is played out. This is kind of what they’re hinting at with how they wished Graham /Jamie were available because if Hook replaced August, then perhaps Neal replaced Graham. So it is critical that Neal’s death be as real as Graham’s, be every bit as long lasting to the point of feeling like it’s gone and done (though ironically that reinforces that Graham’s is permanent!). I know some of us feel Neal was written in from the start, but its also possible they just did a better job “embroidering” his story to be consistent (as opposed to this Cora and Leo junk that was merely “not inconsistent”). Who even knows now? Certainly not the part of my brain symbolized by the baby lion, for she is very drowsy and not thinking entirely as logical as normal.
Then there’s the Goat (not to be confused with GOAT)–this part of my brain says that the logical conclusion is that the writers do NOT have a plan, but are writing the way Hollywood writers DO, and leaving themselves lots of outs. Still, I feel like the momentum of the show right now isn’t looking good, because I feel like the most logical explanation for everything we see on the show is that the premise is not the classic good versus evil but a morality based around the concept that: “Nothing done for love is ever evil, and nothing done without love is ever good!”. At first blush, that’s not so bad, but then you realize, it says nothing about the selfish or selflessness of the actions involved. Consider GOAT (Greg and Tamara this time)–martyrs to a cause, and villainous, trying to do the right thing in one sense but without compassion for those they would harm in service of the ideal. We (the fans) had no sympathy for them. On the other hand, you have Rumple, Regina and Hook, fan favorites, who hurt a lot of people but are excused for a variety of reasons and declared “not a real” villain or bad guy. Then there’s our “heroes”–who we often note are kind of selfish in various ways, and we wonder what’s going on as that’s not how we expect them to act, but it is consistent with what I said is the motto of the show.
SO that leads to the Snake in the Tent of Doom. In fact, I’m so happily camped out in the Tent of Doom I’m making it a circus tent. I loved the “at least they didn’t write this ” speculations we came up with, as it generated laughter, perhaps a touch bitter, but laughter all the same. What I said about their motto, it has a very dark side to it for SF–it puts Hook and Neal on the same footing.
All that selfless/Selfish stuff Neal or Hook did doesn’t matter, all that matters, is they act for Love rather than some other goal (like power or glee of seeing others in pain). Of course, it ought to mean Neal’s failings don’t matter either, his fear of rejection but alas, there’s no consistency in the story here. Neal’s selfish (or flawed choices, rather) DO matter, and are given loads of screentime. Hook’s failings (or flawed choices) on the other hand, will be rug swept away with a handy-dandy little dance of tricks the writers pulled out for Regina or Rumple at various times. It goes like this, the victim is never mentioned again, or if mentioned, basically says it was their fault they were hurt, or apologizes for something the victim did that was unrelated to the original incident. Case 1: Regina killed Graham, but is accused of killing Archie. She was innocent, how dare they! Sympathy gets generated for Regina, characters feel bad for her. Case 2: Rumple beats up Maurice thinking he killed Belle. Maurice goes on a bender, does attempt to hurt Belle, and therefore loses all credibility and sympathy from the other characters and what Rumple did to him (beating him to an inch of his life) is never mentioned again except as a general thing that Rumple owns that Rumple is a dark guy, who does bad things. Then we get to Hook. I predict that the Charmings and Emma will end up realizing they “misjudged” Hook because he wasn’t lying about the message being from Zelena and isn’t in league with her. It’ll be a neat side step of the fact he did turn pirate, didn’t help Ariel, and well, other things we’re supposed to forget. A combination of necessity, and “good guy” obliviousness, but it’s worked before to bring the characters “on the same side”. So Hook will take Emma’s rejection this time, and rather than going to Zelena as he once went back to Cora when his goal was revenge, he’ll keep trying to help Emma, since his goal is win her heart. The thing is it is NOT a parallel situation! Z never offered Hook anything that would make Hook happy, like say, hey Hook, kiss Emma take her memories and take her back to NYC out of my way, and you can go with her and Henry. Hook didn’t get a HARD choice like that. He got a “can’t win” choice, which for a character with plot armor, is really a “can’t lose” situation, because no matter what he did, the Heroes will overlook it in time because its not “his fault”. Z didn’t offer Hook anything good for Hook to get to HIS goal at the expense of the others (as one of his goals IS one of those other protagonists), so we’ll never know what he would have done. It’s low standards all the time for Hook–big deal, he won’t sleep with a purchased wench–but he’s looking for love, not a one night stand, we already knew that. What if it had been Tink, someone he respected saying like LIz to Will that she was in love with him? Now THAT would have been a harder test of loyalty to Emma. Someone he found attractive, got along with and someone offering him love, but nope, that’s not the test they give him. Anyway…I’ve wasted enough time trying to squeeze these thoughts out of my head and for what? It’s not my show, and it appears to be entertaining others just fine, even if it is not my taste. Vince McMahon the WWF guy is a billionaire, off a form of entertainment I find ludicrous, but it is apparently very profitable. That’s life. I realize not everything will be about what I find moving, thrilling or worth watching, and I’m happy others are enjoying what they enjoy. So all I can do is try to have a little fun in the Tent of Doom at this point, because you know, it’s not so bad to commiserate with you guys, for I enjoy this thread so much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI_PclRqS8M“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Has anyone made a SF video to this song by the Fray? Love Don’t Die.
http://www.metrolyrics.com/love-dont-die-lyrics-fray.htmlThat’s how I feel about SF. Neal TRULY loved her, and the fact he died doesn’t change that. I had to read the spoilers about this episode to see how far my crack spec was off. And it was not a monkey Belle thing, but Snow did walk a mile in Regina’s shoes by being the one to cast the curse. Darkening the good characters indeed. I kind of guessed that would happen, and agree Neal came to pass the baton to Hook, to make sure the GA doesn’t think “Neal had issues with Hook!” but instead, make sure we see how much he loved and trust Hook so that we forget all about any “complicated” past. Wonder if Graham ghost and Ariel swimming in to thank Hook aren’t far behind? Anyway, in a way, Emma not trusting Hook is Hook walking a step in Neal’s shoes, but I’m sure Emma will forgive Hook by next episode. Unlike with Neal, he won’t have to apologize epically,and she’ll quickly conclude it wasn’t really his fault because what else could have have done? Rock and a hard place, but I still say, a SOFT-BALL moral test, rather than if Z had said “hey Kiss Emma, take her memories away and take her and Henry to NY–you guys can live happily there, she doesn’t even want to be Savior, and you can trust me, because all I need to do is get revenge on Regina” Nope, its this nutty change-the-past thing, loads of plot armor and loopholes, and rather than giving us the fairy-tale, we’re getting the soap-opera. I feared that the summer before this season started, hoped they wouldn’t go there, but they did. Oh, how they did, ghost-Cora, kissing Leo and marrying her daughter to him and all.
Oh well….out of time to muse more, hugs !“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Am I too late for the speculation of doomtown?
20 [(?) Sorry scanning thread fast here, sneaking on…] Ariel and Eric show up to thank Hook for helping Ariel, because as Ariel says, if Hook hadn’t known about Blackbeard she would never have found Eric. The bit about how he killed Blackbeard rather than trade his ship is not mentioned, at all. Ariel hugs Hook and says Emma is lucky he is “part of her world.” 21. August returns (not explained) and he says to Snow, he was hoping Hook and Emma would get together, also not explained how he knows who Killian (as he calls him) is. 22. Graham’s ghost pops in to tell Emma to take off the shoelace, to move on and let the past go, and under the shoelace is the name Killian. 23. We find out Killian’s mother’s name is Bridget, and she had a magical diary with her dream picture for her son’s future bride, that looks like Emma.
There, NOW it is sufficiently cracky enough…..*hugs*.“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I missed Love Day, busy living life, catching up on shows (only 2 behind on Agents of Shield now!). So I hope you’re all loving the show, and enjoying it. Since I have a little sliver of time with an early rising toddler falling back asleep in my arms and marathon TV night leaves me goofy….CRACK THEORY TIME!
1)Belle cast the curse.
2) Rumple didn’t die because he’s the DO, and only the dagger kills him.
3) Belle did it because Zelena made her.
4) Z “monkified” Belle, but Belle doesn’t know.
5) Z was talking to Belle when she said “My beautiful one” to a monkey, beauty being associated with Belle.
6)The monkey was jealous not of Z, but that it was Rumple that Z was going to go meet.
7) Were-Monkey is like a mix of werewolf and heart-snatched people, they’re under control and follow direct orders (this is how Z spies), but they appear unaware when their human selves, so as to act naturally. (Sleeper Agents!).
8) The things that don’t add up with earlier scenes of Belle interacting with anyone were just there as red herrings, just like Pan and Rumple in the piper story, and explained by sleeper agent thing.
9) As for Hook, Snow and Charming guessed Z was using the curse to get to Emma for her magic. They told him about monkey sleeper agents,when they contacted Hook via bird. They knew his ship was enchanted wood, and could work like the Wardrobe. He agreed to dismantle it so he could help Emma,so that’s why he has memories. He won’t say anything because he’s not sure who is a sleeper monkey agent and Snow’s note said don’t trust ANYONE, and he is afraid to tip off Zelena’s agents, even to tell Emma in case it gets overheard.10) Meta-wise, the story is trying to get characters to “walk-a-mile” in each other’s shoes, so for Belle, the monkey/curse story would allow her to feel manipulated and controlled, to bring her better understanding and forgiveness. Plus to “darken” her as it seems like the writers are trying to blend everyone by “lightening” some, and then like Snow concluding Eva was dark, darken others, Belle will probably feel super-responsible and horrible (even if some of us would say “not her fault” because, monkey–then there will be a double-standard with the reaction of some fans to Walsh (evil, hiss boo) versus Belle (“not her fault!”) in fandom.)
The other crack theory, is that Aurora would use Phil’s heart to protect their child. It’ll be rushed exposition, that they feel guilty for the WWW coming to EF or something like that, during their quest to get Phillip back after the wraith. There’ll be subtext hints of a happy ending as she says she’ll have Mulan to help her raise the child, who will know his/her father was a hero and loved them, and that’s all that matters.
Happy Once Day, let’s hope I’m as off with Monkey-Belle or Aurora ‘s role as Zombie-mermaid-Milah, leader of Ursula’s undead demon-mermaid army!
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Textbook One–That fic was wonderful, had to read it after seeing the thread and all everyone said about it, had to break my usual rule of not reading fics, but it was worth it, and a fitting end and I wish they’d included one or two scenes like what you described, particularly Emma realizing that despite saying she couldn’t change the way she feels, to show that she has. If her Echo Cave sentiments were ironic foreshadowing, well, why was that part not ironic too?
Oh well, they can only show so much on a 45 minute show, and ultimately, it’s not the only beat in this story that seems to be missing.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Submit the Map. It is art, unique and different. Crazy? Yes, but shouldn’t art have an element of the unusual and novel? Besides if its illogical and weird, then it truly captures the essence of the show at the moment.
I was scanning the thread earlier on my ipad, so hard to type any responses but needed to sneak away to an actual keyboard to say, YES to a lot of the posts in this thread. If I had time, there are things I’d pop in and say on other threads but I don’t have the time, or rather, choosing to spend my time more wisely these days :).
Still I saw the sneak peak and If Z threatens Henry, maybe it pushes Rumple too far and he breaks free of her. Why didn’t she start with something easy to prove she’s not all talk like killing one of the dwarfs, and see if that would light a fire under Hook? I mean if “fairy tales are full of danger and consequence” –LETS SEE IT show. Oh, but it would be too cruel to kill some random dwarf, right, too dark …..so we’ll jut have the villain in another case of plot dumb, and she wont’ do the obvious smart thing to get what she wants, but instead some Scooby-doo-style convoluted plot that the “heroes” can foil…..
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I don’t have much time to type, but stopped by to say hi and crack theories used to be my favorite thing to do so had to try to read through here.
Don’t have time to read every post, but here’s the thing with this show–it isn’t consistent enough in its internal logic to rule something out by saying “Why wouldn’t X powerful person just do y”–you have to invent some character based reason they didn’t do it. There’s no way to say logically they couldn’t have, so it turns into well, they didn’t WANT to do it for some reason. Rumple could have sought out a bean via Jeff’s hat like Regina did the apple, he could have found out about Tiny’s plant or the dried bean–for a guy that had foresight, he had an awfully fatalistic, rather than innovative apporach that we’ve seen ON SCREEN to him trying to get to his son. I invented reasons for that but it is ALL OFF SCREEN. The writers never explained it!
So with Z’s spell the same is true. We won’t know why Rumple didn’t do it, unless they tell us and if they don’t, we’ll have to assume it was too costly in his opinion or there were bad consequences of some sort that he feared. Or he was just so sad he didn’t think of it–doesn’t matter, as it doesn’t matter for a million other things in this story, like how Bae got off NL, or why a shadow could go to the world without magic or be trapped by a candle in a coconut, or how August even knew who Bae was or found him.
If the writers close these loopholes? Brilliant, but I am after the adoption story where of all the babies in the world “fate” led Henry to Regina, not expecting much in the way of a plausible character based reason for something to have happened or not happened. Explain why all-knowing Pan had his agents show up a day late and a dollar short? It makes no sense if he knew about Henry for so long that they would somehow lose them to a memory-fogged Mr. Gold, unless there was some foresight and planning on Gold’s part–but they didn’t SHOW US that! The way they DID show us the story, it was supposed to be a “legitimate” adoption, stupid because Regina doesn’t even legitimately exist in the countries of the land without magic but hand-waive away all such logical quibbles.
So Z’s plan, the writers could go a few different ways:
1) Actual Time Loop. In Back to the FUture and Loopers, agents who travel back in time ARE affected immediately by changes they make to the timeline.
2) Alternate Reality. Some sci fi stories have characters who end up in a different reality from their own, therefore remain unaffected regardless of what they do to their past selves.
3) Mix of the two –it starts off as a an actual loop and ends up a different reality (see Loopers, a movie that more or less implies that).
4) “It always Happened” –the wheel of time, idea that they used in LOST, that the past was caused by the future. I could see them doing this, as it is mystical and what they did in LOST, and fits the “magic” feel of the show.
If they do this, I think it is likely they won’t alter the events they showed in the narrative already, but rather, it will be FURTHER back in time they go. Then again, they’ve used many plot devices like memory curses or THE CURSE to alter personality and erode character development so maybe they would do what Grimm is saying and have Snowflake be Regina.
Anyway, if they do this crack idea–then maybe Snowflake is the origin of the Dark One curse. Maybe someone’s thrown that out already, as I said, didn’t have time to read through the whole crack thing, but if they do that, it would have a certain logic to it. True Love reversed–into the Dark One. So Snowflake would be Zoso or his predecessor. After whatever happens to take “our heroes” back in time, they eventually find a way back to the future, but Snowflake has to stay behind and grows up as the first Dark One, and Rumple ends up in the future curse free.
That sounds like a last season sort of plot line though. So if they do it, wouldn’t expect it to be obvious how far back in time they’ve gone or any of it right away.
Honestly though, I think they may just have Z cast a curse that makes it “as if” Regina had never been born, in terms of changing memories rather than actually changing reality at all. Why bother with the real thing when what you don’t know won’t bother you?
That could explain why Will Scarlet is on the cast next season, if WL is not included in her little curse world bubble, and he and Ana want to visit her family and realize everyone is cursed….
Anyway out of time to further shake out those thoughts, hope you’re all enjoying the show !
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Trying to catch up a little but not enough time to really write my thoughts. I’m happier this way. In fact, most of the time I feel like that Pharell WIlliams song “Clap along if you’re Happy” but when I start to think of this show it turns into that Gnarls Barkley Song…”Crazy….”.
So for now, I just leave hugs and maybe sometime I’ll be able to do more than just nod at a lot of the things you guys write.
hugs!
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I saw this article in EW about “pop culture” fatigue and it made me think of OUAT. It didn’t mention it in there, but it was about how with some series it is better to step back from the echo chamber of everyone else’s reactions and thoughts and just watch something on your own. You can connect better sometimes without the “conversation” coloring everything you see, the hype from the media and other fans, and just focus on the story in a lighter, less thinking-too-hard-way.
I never analyzed Charmed. I just watched. I knew some things totally didn’t make sense and I didn’t care, at first. I liked the characters overall but they had their strained seasons so eventually I hit a point where I just didn’t feel like tuning in, and I think I missed the series finale. So when I remember that, with Rose McG to be playing Cora again, perhaps I can get into that mindset and start watching again. If I remember that OUAT has moved firmly to a campy story, a soap-opera centered on a family that just happens to have magic when its convenient for a plot device for the writers, but not with any intent to develop a coherent mythology of that magic, then I won’t feel frustrated by it. There’s no attempt to ground the magic in a sense of reality. Things happen and characters are just written as being oblivious of things you think ought to matter or surprisingly knowledgeable about things you wouldn’t have guessed they should know. Some things directly contradict or indirectly other ones–its a mess, but if I’m just watching for costumes, “live action” reimagined fairy-tales, plot and special effects? Maybe it’ll be entertaining. I started watching Agents of Shield and I treat it that way–don’t ask, just watch. I look at the other shows on ABC’s lineup, and I think maybe that’s what the network wants from its writers–look at Scandal, Revenge and the rest. So I just need to realize that what I was hoping the writers could do, like say having some story about the fresh start in SB Ruby mentioned, or magic vs science or even democracy with Regina Mills, Mayor versus the feudal life under the Charmings–that’s just NEVER going to be a storyline the writers are interested in portraying.
I also have no hope of Neal returning, and actually, I just wish they’d written his death and the aftermath in a more meaningful way. To bring him back would be even more contrived magical hand-waiving that makes me cringe to even guess how they do that, though I guess there is the whole theme of a spirit world, MAP’s untold story and the fact this wasn’t a non-magical death. If they do go there, maybe it will be Dylan brought back–the ultimate cake and eat it too solution from the writer’s POV, so Rumple gets his happy ending after all, but Neal still doesn’t, because well, he achieved what he needed or whatever it was the writers said.
If they do that, I’ll be back to ship the inevitable teen soap angst when teenage Bae and teen Henry fight over Grace/Paige–that is if the show is not mercifully cancelled before the writers get that far.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
