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Obisgirl, the problem is, you’re missing that NEAL DOES SEE HIS FATHER’S PAIN. He has met him halfway. He came to SB, invited him (off screen) to meet Tamara. Rumple’s pain is sad, but you can love one character without demonizing the others! It is sad for both.
[adrotate group="5"]“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Slurpeez, I agree with a lot of that, but it makes me uncomfortable to make quite so strong an analogy here.
I think a lot of people do not realize just how victimized Neal has been, because they are so stuck on how he left Emma. Of course the writers created a lot of ambiguity in how they wrote Neal leaving Emma, because they wanted it to be consistent with their premise that Emma arrives unloved, alone, walls-up in SB. They tried to give him a justified reason with the whole “in the way of the curse” storyline, but the way it was presented left a lot of room for interpretation. Magic itself defies logic so I get why people are confused.What does make me raise my eyebrows a little here is this logic: Neal just doesn’t appreciate Rumple, doesn’t he realize how many people Rumple hurt for him!?
Say what again? Shouldn’t that be a reason to be UPSET with Rumple, to realize that despite pleading not to crush this guy, or turn that one into a snail, or that one into a Rose (ok, after he left but still Rumple did it), that these are NOT acceptable ways to show your love?
http://screwballninja.tumblr.com/post/59639330618/a-creative-spark-set-afire-acceptable-ways-to
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Rumple’s ideas of how to show love to Neal have been a little warped. Rumple offered to turn Neal into a boy seconds after seeing Neal learn Henry was his son! Then there was the time Rumple decided to respond to Neal complaining that Rumple had not bothered to meet his fiance (suggesting Neal had invited him to do so) that “why bother” because it would not last.
Do you know how hurtful it is to have your own parent imply that your relationship is doomed to failure because you are not over someone you think (for good reasons) would not want you? Whether it was true or not, Rumple’s flinging it in Neal’s face that way came about because Rumple didn’t want to own up to crushing Whale’s neck. He was trying to deny that he hadn’t changed instead of explaining about Lacey, and Regina’s trap. He could have offered some encouragement to Neal, noticed that Neal already felt conflicted and upset about his love life (all the more, because it was Neal’s own fault to be in that situation). That’s a parallel right there, because it was Rumple’s own fault for falling for Regina’s trap with Lacey.
They do have their similarities. They aren’t exactly alike though. I believe Neal is massively less devious and is more trusting in general, but he has a long history seeing (or hearing ) Rumpel make the wrong decision. So he isn’t as trusting as maybe Belle might be, but then, she has had her limits also (rightfully so).
I want so badly for these two reunite, but I am not going to blame Neal or Rumple for every little thing they do when I wouldn’t blame another character in the same spot for a similar decision. But attempting to kill Henry? That one is wrong. That is not a little thing.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I like that RG–RQ as protege to Cora, a spiritual “daughter”.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I was a bit disapointed that this Ana-WIll reveal makes the theory of her and Jefferson look ruled out. I’m not in favor of a triangle!
Maybe he’s her brother or his wife is her sister? She knew about the mirror somehow, knew it would take them to another land.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I do not think Neal planned to ditch Rumple until the moment he realized his father lied to cover up that he had wanted to kill his son because of a prophecy. Pan is a master manipulator too, so that factors in. Neal and Rumple both do believe in fate and destiny, though they both want to escape it. I will agree Neal was not ready to take a leap of faith, but he didn’t think he needed to do that to protect Henry by risking him with his father. He was overconfident to think he could find the others before Pan woke up, but Neal thought he had a way off the island. So it wasn’t a matter of battling Pan but avoiding him just long enough to get to Emma and the others (and that included some serious firepower in that team too).
I do not hate Hook, Rumple or Emma, and while I like Neal, I can see his flaws too. What’s more, the character recognizes his mistakes and apologizes for them. He might have been hard on Rumple from the audience perspective that has seen how moved Rumple was, but I do not forget what it took to move him. Rumple was THIS close to killing Henry, and even after he got to NL, he was spending hours with imaginary Belle trying to strengthen his resolve to do the right thing. It might hurt to hear your family doesn’t trust you, but if you have done awful things to them, you kind of need to expect they might not forgive you so easily. Or you might turn yourself into Henry Sr.
Neal might be more on the unforgiving side, especially compared to Belle, but it is not like he has double-standards for himself. He never expected Emma to forgive him. He believed that so completely, that he lost hope, which is another character flaw, but it is not selfishness. Even now, he is on his way to NL for BOTH her and Henry, and he does not know if they can get back together romantically. He has a dialog line to that effect so it is not just fan speculation that he feels that way. He is in NL to help those he loves, without knowing if they will love him back. Now this is my fan interpretation, to think that extends to Henry, because I think Neal knows what Pan tries to do to the boys he takes. I think Neal’s fear and sense of urgency to get to NL is based on his personal experience with the psychological torture that Pan uses to undermine your confidence that your family loves you. Take that into account as well with how Neal reacts to Rumple, because Neal has been on the receiving end of that Pan manipulation too, and was again, when Pan brought up the prophecy.
I’ll defend Hook /Rumple/Regina at times, and their decisions, depends on what opinion is said and how far it seeks to scrub them from responsibility or to demonize them despite their efforts to change, but I do the same for Neal too. People have their reasons to want to hate various characters. Some are deeply personal. Yes, if Neal could have been as trusting as Belle, maybe things would be better, or maybe it would have turned out like when Belle convinced Rumple to give Hook a second chance to just sail away. Hook came back and shot Belle, to make her loose her memory, even though she basically had saved his life. I understand he was so damaged and hurt he did not value his life other than to accomplish his revenge, and Belle did not try to spare his life out of concern for him, but his enemy. The thing is Neal saw that Rumple had no genuine love for Henry, only for Neal. That hurts too. He saw his father thought of his son as an enemy.
It is easy to keep blaming the victims because they aren’t “nice’ enough to those who have hurt them. One thing I will say about Neal, he (and those who defend him) generally do not apply that standard to him and his behavior, because the character himself is capable of recognizing his mistakes to the extent he is the one who wronged the other person. Not trusting someone who tried to hurt you, is not wronging them.
Neal’s biggest flaws are that he hurt Emma, but he at least apologizes to Emma. He lets her yell and doesn’t tell her she HAS to forgive him. He never expected that, and he still does not expect, that she would just take him back in a romantic sense, yet he wants to fight to free her and Henry from Pan. So that is how he in turn, relates to Rumple. If Rumple truly wants to help Henry, to really earn back his son, he is going to have to realize he must believe in himself, stop believing himself a monster (why he pushed Belle-vision away). He is going to have to keep being good even in the face of disbelief from those who he has hurt before, until they are ready to accept he truly has changed.
I remember Regina showing up at the diner, then getting annoyed that people didn’t warmly welcome her. Change is not that easy, you cannot do one good thing and expect people to just forget and sweep under the rug all that went before. Neal doesn’t treat Rumple that way, but he doesn’t expect to be treated that way himself (dialog backs that up). I know he’ll give Rumple more chances, and he’s already given him som. He dropped everything to take his father to SB, and was ready to fight to the death with nothing but a sword against Cora and Regina, two people so powerful, that some will argue their power is ample reason for other characters to do bad things, for fear of reprisal from them. Yet Neal fought for Rumple then. Just right now, in that moment, he doubted Rumple, but it played into the fact that Rumple had been doubting himself. If you truly want someone to believe in you, you have to believe in yourself too.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Yes! So I was looking back at old episodes, and it is funny that 1×05 and 2×05 respectively are That still Small Voice and The Doctor. In 1×05, we met Jimminy who is the embodiment of “conscience” in Disney lore. Then in the Doctor, we saw Victor struggling with his own guilt over his brother. We know that the next episode is “Good form”, and centered on Hook. Not a shocking prediction to think Hook’s going to be feeling guilty and struggling with his conscience over his brother.
Why I’m writing this up in this thread though, is that I’ve seen people talking about 3.05 as the “anniversary” of Tallahassee and, actually, it is not. Emma and Hook did meet in 2.05, the Doctor, but their dynamic was much more competitive, as he was treated very much just as a threat there, just as all the Princesses (other than Aurora who had sympathy) reacted to him. Now what do I think this means? Well, I think it means that in a weird way, this THING is not hopefully going to play out and into the dynamics of Tallahassee. This is going to be a matter of conscience for Hook, in the past, and in the present, setting up his state of mind for the Ariel episode, which is actually in the same spot as last year’s Tallahassee.
Now on a second note, I’ve been thinking about the whole Princess Bride nods. There’s actually several in the series. So Rumple’s use of “twu wuv” mimicks the way the priest in the marriage ceremony in TPB says it. Charming’s “I will always find you” mimicks Wesley’s “I will always come for you,” and of course, Charming was a farm boy. You know who else is? Neal. As Bae, he and Rumple seemed to have a sheep farm, because they were herding sheep.
Shippy spin headcannon time, but I wonder if just like Ruby is the Wolfe and Little Red, if they might be doing something funky to the extent they’re nodding to a movie they don’t have the rights to actually use the characters, such as TPB. So what if they sort of split Wesley into 2 parts, the Man in Black, and the Farm Boy “True First Love”. So Hook is the former, and Neal is the latter. It’s a clunky fit, but so is trying to shoehorn everything onto Hook given well, all the things we’ve seen him do, not to mention some of the things we guess are going to be shown in the next episode. It’s just a crazy idea, as I do not think they have the rights to actually re-imagine the story. Nods however, those they can get away with slipping in here and there.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
There was a sarlacc reference too. (the pit of doom that jaba wanted to throw Luke into, that they went to visit on the sail barge.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I was dissapointed with how brief it was, though I liked the line you’re stranger, I’m stranger, together we’re strangers.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I can’t find where I saw it, but in another example of the story it said Emma sees a Goldfish. I think it was in here …http://www.c-s-p.org/flyers/978-1-4438-4002-6-sample.pdf
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
