[kfchimera]

*Hugs*

I finally saw the Wonderland finale, so wanted to stop by to say hello for all the feels of it.  WL started slow but ended with the kind of “fairy tale” wonder that I at one point hoped to see out of OUAT.

Also, I claim cookies for being one of the few to call what Jafar was after–the chance to make the Sultan feel what it is like to be killed by someone you love.  Finally a villain done right, no sand-blasting away of the faults for redemption stories just because the villain is hot and likeable on some level.   Speaking of that, Red Queen, the moment she fully won me over is when she wanted to save WL, even thinking it wasn’t going to win back Will’s love.  She wanted to do it because it was the right thing to do.

That brings me to OUAT, where I feel “doing the right thing” is being dismissed as something as foolish as any other absolute belief, like Liam in his King, Felix in Pan or GOAT in their home office.    It’s the only way I can explain what they did with Neal ‘s sacrifice line–all that matters in this story, I think, is that people do what they do, wrong or right for love, and it is perhaps the unintended  result of trying to make antagonists into protagonists.
I’m not sure, but maybe when I catch up on the show I can examine that idea some more–but for now, I will just *hug* you guys and hope you’re having a good day and enjoying something about the show still.

 

[kfchimera]

RG, I felt I had to stop by one more time just to give you the biggest hug ever for doing the podcast, and sticking through it.

I’m happy so many of you are finding things to enjoy still in the show, and definitely in the conversation about the show.  I poked around a little on other threads, but honestly trying to say what I want without getting embroiled in a back-and-forth-time-consuming discussion about it? I don’t want that because I’ve been  a lot happier not devoting quite so much time to all this.   Once you start, sometimes it is hard to stop, so I had to laugh at the conversations that went by about feeling like you’re in an abusive relationship or addicted or something like that.  Precisely the reason I thought it best to put my highly developed  procrastination skills to work FOR me for a change–I’ll check in later. Oh, maybe a little later. Then the next day, the next day and finally I don’t feel so bad or that I’m missing out  on something, but am just firmly in my new routine, a healthier routine.

Anyway *hugs* to everyone, especially to whoever it is that has a relative in the hospital. I skimmed, so forget who right now.

 

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

I wanted to stop by and give a great big hug to everyone in this forum.
I was prepared for some time now for the writers to kill Neal, but I’d held out hope they would write it with more grace and style.

Like August said, that’s my problem, hoping.  I’m not sure why I did hope for more, because this was far from the first huge plot contrivance and bit of shoddy writing on this show.
Watching the end of How I Met Your Mother, I know that my problem here isn’t about shipping.  It’s about the writing and the hope I had for something better.  I liked Robin and Barney and Ted and the Mother as couples, but the way the show told the story made me feel the ending made sense and fit the character’s progression  (aside from a little Barney whiplash for humor, but it is a comedy, not a drama.)  So this comedy show was more heartfelt and hit that bittersweet note, and I didn’t feel the way I do about OUAT.

I don’t think Rumple’s sacrifice set up Neal’s because of the way they wrote it.  I could have handled it if Neal finally realized that much as he loved Henry and Emma, he also dearly loved his Papa and that his Papa deserved a second chance to live as the good man he once was, not to die as a villain.  If he’d come to see that Belle and Rumple deserved that chance, and felt that he himself had in some ways, had his second chance and felt fulfilled just knowing he had a son and that he’d tried to do everything he could to be a good father to his son.

That isn’t the way it went down.  Out of nowhere, Neal suddenly forgets all his scruples about magic, dark magic in particular, and is in a hot rush to resurrect his father, not because he loves him but because he wants to use the Dark Magic to get to his family.  Then, he doesn’t care about the price, which does play as stupid even as Lumiere tries to say he’s just emotional and desperate.  It erodes sympathy for Neal, because instead of this being some sort of tragic thing (like Graham) it played more like a Darwin award moment.  Increasingly though, that’s the way they write good characters–they only survive so long as their plot armor holds up.  Neal’s runs out, not because he really made a purposeful sacrifice either.  Telling Emma to separate them because Rumple needs to help them figure out the witch?    As Zelena herself says, it doesn’t matter anyway if they know who she is, and guess what? Without Neal blocking the dagger, Zelena actually gained an advantage as she has full control of the Dark One, all sane rather than bonkers.

In any case, Neal’s love for Henry was not given full weight, then there was all the silliness of Neal saying he learned the value of sacrifice.  A&E themselves said Neal sacrificed, their words, and suddenly they’re saying it was fan interpretation? At this point, I think Adam “I didn’t say that.  I was misquoted” Horowitz and Eddy “Oops I said it” Kitsis seem to think they should say whatever the majority of their current audience want them to say, then if it isn’t well received, they twist their words the other way.    That line was awful, and doesn’t deserve to be defended.

I do think it gives Rumple a chance to show growth, from his “I don’t care anymore” attitude the first time Neal died, to his relatively calm and composed response this time, wanting to help fight the Witch, but it was a long way to go, at very great expense in terms of redundancy, plot contrivance and just character-whiplash for them to have this play out this way.   And these are all things that have nothing to do with wanting to see Neal get back together with Emma!

I shouldn’t have been surprised, after how they handled the whole “mystery box” and August “reboot” storyline.  Then there was the adoption story, potion of forgetting and all that.  At least with that, I thought, ok, they are still nodding to Regina’s darker side, so not entirely trying to whitewash her. Now the OQ stuff tells me they’re leaping into Operation White Wash.  The Evil Queen no longer, just the “bold and audacious” queen and we’ll just forget all the storytelling about how she ever hurt anyone just because you know,  it was only a reputation thing, she never actually did anything bad to anyone!  The OQ thing is a cute romance but that line just put me off it–I much preferred the trajectory in the EF where Robin is seeing her inner pain and yet still sees her coldness and excitement at having someone to destroy, rather than a sort of false impression that her bark was worse than her bite.  Her bite is plenty strong, always was–wanted him to see that, and still fall for her.  I’m not even going to touch the whole thing with Hook and Neal, because my eyes would hurt from the rolling necessary to even think about how poorly they executed that.

Of course, that’s what happens when a weaker writer is given the helm, and that in itself tells me, because what episodes that writer had before, what the real purpose here was, and it wasn’t character development or telling a bold story. It was “we write for the fans” which seems lately to be “we write like the fans”–and that’s not really a good thing for writers to be proud of in terms of surprising us with a story that manages to both respect its past and the complications of its characters while hitting unexpected new developments that somehow feel inevitable.   HIMYM did it, but OUAT didn’t.  HIMYM is done with its run, and I’m wistful about that, but I don’t feel that about OUAT even though I’m largely done with it as well.  It’s Heroes all over again for me –Nathan being my 9th favorite character on that show (I counted…Hiro, Ando, Suresh, Parkman, HRG, Peter, Angela “Mama” Petrelli, Claire, Sylar then Nathan).

Character deaths can be meaningful, they can be shocking but rarely do I feel they’re a deal-breaker for me.  BSG killed off a few characters I really liked and rooted for, some even in couples that I “shipped,  but I still watched until the end and loved the show and every minute of it, because I felt it fit in the story they were telling.   Even if the writing didn’t quite make sense, even on shows where it was TOTALLY actor driven, I kept going as usually there was still a narrative heart that stayed true to the original vision despite the attempt to reconfigure the story  for cast changes (like on Smallville or SG-1).

So that leads me to what I feel the most sad about –and that is, the loss of the community here on the forums, particularly in this nice sweet corner of it.  I know it will go on, but I don’t have any desire to watch this show on time.  My DVR is full of other promising series that I”ve yet to watch, and mainly I fast-tracked  OUAT in order to keep up with discussion here.  It became a hobby to speculate, to be silly or serious, to chat, but increasingly, it is a hobby that takes up too much free time.  My son progressed from infant in arms to active toddler, and writing these things (though I type, read and think pretty fast) is still too time consuming for a show that has failed me too many times in terms of realizing its plot potential.  (Remember the whole magic vs science thing & Whale? Red? Oh the dropped plotlines of Hatter and Mirror…it goes on and on.)

Maybe in a few months I will stop by again, my excitement in the show renewed but it is going to take a lot and I really don’t think A&E have it in them to lure me back into their spell.

All the same, I decided to keep my forum account,  probably more because of how much I enjoyed the conversation and camaraderie.    As the line in HIMYM went, to paraphrase, things change, and people move on and it doesn’t have to be a sad thing.   Life would be stagnant if everything stayed the same and while I’ll miss hanging out here, I also know it is better for me personally for many reasons as this gives me the opportunity to find other things to invest my time in that DO make me happy.

 

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Dontstopbelevin, Yes!

Just look at that parallel with Red Queen, or Cylice, love goes on.  Whatever happens next? Does not change what happened and despite what people want to claim, we know Neal and Emma loved each other deeply and were willing to risk being miserable for the chance to make the other happy.  Yes there was hurt, but also a sincere desire on Neal’s part to want to make up for that hurt.  He had far better reasons to leave Emma than RQ, and while he  had doubts about whether she would ever want him back in her life, he seems to have gained some confidence that no matter what she is his family.  He and Henry, and Emma feels the same. She may want other romantic partners, she may not, but he will always be important.  Yet why should she not look at him with new understanding of how deeply he loves her?

She would have to be blind to ignore that Neal followed through on being there for her and for Henry in NL, how he risked himself at the portal.  She would need to be oblivious to ignore that he ultimately seeks the same things she is.  I do not think he just wants to cut and run back to NY, but he wants to find the best home for Henry.   He would be wherever they need to be, not craving adventure or power.  That is how Neal was written, and if the writers go for shock, twist and throw away earlier development for out of nowhere scenes that change the story upside down, then I am not sure how much effort to put into watching what essentially becomes a story where there is not progression so much as reset buttons firing off to do whatever fans want, not what the story needs.  That is not that Emma must love Neal romantically but if she does not it should not be because she still thinks he is a bad guy.  her opinion of him needs to evolve just as hers has of other characters.  Love is not logical.  So I cannot say an improved opinion is enough to rekindle their love but I wanted to see them have the chance to try, to see maybe if they have gone different directions in their essential characters.  I do not see that as the story told here, that they no longer are  aligned on their core ideas of what a good life might be.  I do think Emma has to accept her fairy tale identity, so video games and pancakes are not her destiny, but they should not be eliminated from her life.  I suppose that is why I see her ending up in SB where she has a mix of magic and real life.  I feel the same for Neal, that he would not just be all let’s pretend magic does not exist and go back to the real world, not now that he knows she has other family, that Henry does, family that love them.  I guess we have to see how they progress from this point, but whatever the writers choose to do, I am not going to necessarily be as interested in discussing some outcomes as others.    I guess I will wait to see, but I enjoyed the conversations we have in and out of these forums with people who realize that there is room for interpretation, that speculation is only ever a guess on what might happen and even when we get some things right, we also do get some things wrong.  The details matter in a story like this, even if the outcome goes to the same place, and the details of Neal and Emma will always be that it is two people who loved each other and got whacked upside the head by fate.  I will always wish to see those types of stories resolve with a happy ending, especially when you throw in a father and a son like Rumple and Henry.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Beautiful Pretties!

Happy Birthday again, have more cake:

Source

Who knew dreamcatcher cakes are a thing.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

KFC you hit the nail right on the head. I love everything you said because that’s pretty much the stuff swirling inside my head that I can’t put to words. Can I please used your meta on tumblr! I will not take credit for it and I will not use your full name just your initials?

Oh, absolutely! You can use myscreename, its not like someone was cruel enough to name their kid after a fastfood chain and a mythical beast, so its just my “alter ego ” for fan purposes :).

I think it was your tumblr, awhile back you wrote something about how SF is your ship no matter what happens, and I thought that was fantastic too, and was going to quote it here for discussion.   I think whatever happens in this show, I am always going to adore the story they told, because Neal does love Emma, and she does love him.   I hope it leads to happily ever after, a reconciliation, because I think they want the same things out of life.  They aren’t just looking for romance and adventure, they are looking for home and family.  I root for them to find it, and in a shippy sense, root for it to be with each other because they’re cute together in those puppy love days, and the small few moments after he came back to challenge Rumple and before Tamara showed up.  Outside of that it was angst, angst, angst, with always some reason they had to hold back a little what they might want to say under different, less life threatening or stressful circumstances.   I definitely agree, these obstacles are the things keeping the story going, or else it would skip to the happy ending part far too easily.

 

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

That would be awesome!  I don’t ever expect to see Jack again, of course, but they really wasted that actress (she was on Smallville as a main villain/antagonist turned eventual ally), but would be interesting if there was some connection with Jack, Cora, and Jabber too.  I wonder if Cora learned something she thought to her advantage about Rumple from Jabber, then she got Wil’s mirror to get back to EF.  Jack went with Cora, explaining how Jack ended up in the EF.  Cora took Henry Sr. then, and decided to return to WL where she was Queen and Regina couldn’t get to her (this is before her desire to reconcile).

Oh this twisty timeline.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Yes to everything!

Also, I forgot to say Happy Birthday to ArtsDeeva….if you haven’t made your birthday cake….here’s my plan for a virtual one for you 😛 All the candles go in the mouth so it looks like the Swan is breathing fire.

Source

 

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Welcome lecygne!  Thanks for sharing your perspective.

If a second chance and a happy ending happens?  Huge party, but only in this thread.  That’s sort of one of the most frustrating things here, that for weeks on weeks, we sort of have this extra stress with not knowing where Neal is.  It feels like the stakes are somehow higher for SF /Neal fans than others.  Yet if our best-case scenario happens, then suddenly the stakes are even, its not that the stakes are lowered all the way.  On the one hand, I did feel the story needed more danger, but its like going from 0 to 180 here.  BF should have stayed dead.  While I adore Keegan for her funny twitter, and heart in attending Fan conventions, the BF sneaky fairy is a plot device in a costume monstrosity.    That was acceptable “stakes” and shocking, and they ruined it with a pop up recovery, that screamed nothing more loudly than “hah we can’t get rid of our plot device crutch, who are we kidding”.  So here we are, the heat turned all the way up.

I can’t even look forward to a reunion as we did in S3A.  Even worse with the doom spoiler and filming reports, are the  people on twitter/tumblr saying they already know and being openly excited for the death.  Even here, people are mainly polite, but I see a few people constantly implying “after Sunday…” It’s not an intentional thing to make us feel worse, but they honestly believe the speculations so its just how they think, that first off, anything trollish is somehow SF fans (hello there’s anti-shippers, pure trolls, and people who like other ships out there too).  Some might be genuinely sad for those of us who like Neal, even if they don’t like him–but for me, and possibly for Phee and some others, we like Hook!    We like him in a different way than others, and have a different read on his character, and I had different hopes for how they’d write him.  So I don’t see total happy dances in my future no matter who.  On hearing this death spoiler, my reaction versus other fans reminded me of that scene of August saying to Neal about the jail “It’s good” and Neal saying “How’s it  good?”.  If I could, I’d manipulate a gifset with August saying that, with “most online OUAT” fans arrow pointing to him, and another arrow pointing to Neal and saying “Neal fans”.  This isn’t about just a ship, it should be  about fans of the characters and the show.  A death to resolve a love triangle is the worst writing trope.  Even if its neither of these two, then who?  The only one I could stand is a long-con fast one of an already forgotten and side-lined character or some word play by A&E to refer to a kid actor like Bailee or Dylan.   If its about ships, I’d prefer over death, that Neal realize his happy ending is with just a platonic friendship/co-parent with Emma than DIE for shock value and to clear the way for Hook.  I’d prefer Hook sail off for adventure, perhaps a bit wiser, realizing romantic love is not the only thing worth changing for in this life, than die for romantic love, when there’s other relationships worth having in life. 

I do love the love story that SF could be, and while I’m not keen on CS at this point, what bothers me I suppose is the way themes of loves other than romantic get so downplayed by fans and possibly the writers if the fans are right.

Not SF, but as this is a safe place to put an opinion about Hook without upsetting those who do view solely in a romantic light, I need to rant a little bit about the undervaluing of Hook as a full character.

He once wanted to claim Neal as a friend, DOES claim him so–and fans claim Charming as his friend for him though Hook as a character never did–and how has he treated either of them? In FTL we saw, he ditches them for a return to pirate priorities because neither of them are useful now for winning Emma.  Why do the writers keep showing negative things about Hook (the scene with Tink, the scene in FTL) for this “he left, but he came back!” type surprise? It works once as a reversal of character, but after that? It makes Hook look like he’s putting on a show of good behavior, not sincerely a less selfish person now. Tink shows concern for Hook, but does he show any for her? Not really.  Forget the CaptainFairy ship–how about a real friendship that goes two ways? Everything is about his quest for Emma, and that makes him less well-rounded as a character.

Fans try to say Hook is putting a show of bad behavior, that he went looking for Emma the whole time.  Maybe.  That he gave his ship, his home to cross worlds.  Maybe.  Even his romantic line, of being glad Emma’s heart is broken is something I wouldn’t think quite so bad  (he did say don’t take it the wrong way), if we only thought of romantic loves.  It would have worked better if he’d said “I still have a chance ” rather than knowing her heart works.  The reason it bothered me is that Emma’s core is her motherly love for Henry.  Hello Hook, shouldn’t you know Emma’s heart works because you know, you simple minded pirate, she loves her son?  Really, truly, deeply loves her son? A quality, mind you, that the last woman he devoted himself to, did not possess?  I’m glad he picked  a better person to court this time, but if that’s the extent of his change, that the beautiful woman he loves this time just happens to have better morals, that its not part of his attraction to her, then its all outside of his character.  It’s not HIS change.  He loves Emma because –why? What qualities about her attract him?

In terms of what we’ve seen him say or how he acts, he likes that she’s up for a fight, that she’s never lost (he thinks), that’s she physically beautiful, that she is a challenge.  Her vulnerability and heartache, her loss of hope are things that he connects with in her.  It’s not that I think he wants her miserable as he is, but he feels she understands that and it sets up a connection.  They do both have that hard knocks life behind them.

Still, what isn’t on that list?  Her love for her son.  Her unwillingness to see others suffer needlessly (not her strong suit, as  she’s still working on this hero destiny thing, but pregnant women and orphans inspire her a little).  Her love for her parents and community.

If Emma were more selfish, more weighed down by motherhood, perhaps she’d just run off with Hook and how would he have grown at all?  If he fell for Emma more slowly, because of her devotion to Henry, then was visibly more conflicted about Neal being alive, I would have preferred the writing.  Let it be Emma that drove towards Hook, and Hook staving her off, because he has changed and loves his friend Neal.  They didn’t do that.  It’s totally 100% Hook trying to impress her, trying to win her, and far as his friend Neal?  The writing is very weak.

So from a ship perspective, for CSers, I can see why they find it romantic that Hook is putting himself at risk in NL, and he managed somehow to cross worlds, bring her back to her family.  Yet he doesn’t want her to stay with them, since he doesn’t seem all that respectful of them.  He didn’t stay with them in FTL, to see them settled before he  went off.  You can say his grief overwhelmed him but isn’t that where we come in on the villain path?  The ability to rise above your sadness, to think of others is what makes one heroic.

So I bring this back to the ambiguity of the writing, the editing.  Is Hook’s attitude that he is a less selfish person now or is it really he just wants Emma, a swap of how to get his Happy Ending from “avenge Milah then die” to “move on with Emma!”.

The writers are interested in exploring that dynamic between Hook and Emma, so explore it they have, but it feels to me out of joint with Emma’s connections to other people she cares about.  It feels odd that Hook doesn’t seem to care much about anyone else either for their own sakes, particularly when it comes to Neal and Henry.  He would be a more full character if they established he cares and has formed a friendship of sorts with these others but I feel they keep hinting he has not because of course, they keep wanting to show he’s a pirate, so the only one he shows concern about is Emma.

Ok Rant over for now…I will try to get back to some SF shippy thoughts, happy things about what I like about Neal and Emma’s journey, rather than complaining about the lack of Captainfire and such.

 

 

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

When they announced it, they described a one season arc like AHS does, and I was excited for a complete story.  I never expected a second.  I did however think it dragged at first and while better now, I have to agree that no filler is good.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

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