[kfchimera]

Interesting thoughts Phee.

Hook does have different conflicting emotions, as do Emma and Neal as well at different points in time. The media and fans on twitter seem to mostly want to talk about romantic love, but there’s more going on.

Neal is curiously chill about encountering Hook again. In Manhattan Emma tells Neal that Hook won’t hurt any of the rest of them. She tells him that she does not think Hook would be a problem when Neal says he escaped. Neal’s last encounters with Hook that we saw onscreen should have given him every reason to argue and question her word on that. Especially if you think Neal undermines Emma because he is of course the stereotypical jerk ex. Neal believes Emma quite a bit, supports her, but he is not the kind of guy who swaps sides in a heartbeat. It is hard for him to just toss aside his emotions about Tamara without solid evidence of wrongdoing. Yet he kind of does about Hook.

He is the one that asks Emma if leaving Hook behind is a problem, almost like he is concerned about him. Hook handed him over to the Lost Ones, stabbed his father, and ran away with his mother, and all he says is “It’s a long story.” He could have said “Don’t trust that guy.” or “I hate that guy.” “He ruined my life”. Four words to convey the pain and angst we’d saw him express at 14, but he keeps it all in. The writers hid this backstory from us, and had Neal conceal it from Emma.

Then there is the scene where Bae tells Hook about the dagger. He trusted Hook deeply despite their short acquaintance to reveal he is the Dark One’s son, to reveal the existence of that dagger. I don’t think he tells just anyone that information. Even if Bae’s desire to protect his papa weren’t there, the fact is, Bae knows what happened to the last person who even came close to finding about it and she was mute. His father killed her. As Bae tells Hook, he reveals he thinks the crew might be frightened to learn the Dark One is his father. But he doesn’t think Hook would be. Bae was a brave kid who didn’t want to make others suffer, but he tells Hook all this because he feels he can trust him and from Bae’s side it has nothing to do with Milah. The father/son thing might come a little in how Hook looked at Bae because of Milah, but Bae felt that trust without knowing that connection.

When he finds out about his mother, he jumps to a conclusion about Hook despite the earlier trust. He feels betrayed and he flies at Hook, saying “face me villain.” He doesn’t wait to get Hook’s side of the story. He’s 14, I don’t blame him. Not only are you not mature mentally, you have all those hormones and things at that age, and it would not be too believable if he didn’t fly off the handle. Trust is a HUGE deal to kids, and is a theme in the Peter Pan story and in OUAT itself. Bae should have been outraged, and if Hook were less damaged and experienced with kids himself, perhaps he could have more calmly handled Bae. Yet circumstances didn’t give them that time. The Lost Ones show up pretty quickly, and I do not believe Hook planned that, but I do think he rolled with it. Live to fight another day, as Hook tells Charming at one point. Pirates DO have to change teams in an instant as a matter of survival.

I think both Bae and Hook regretted that moment. It may have taken Neal growing up more to look back on it differently, perhaps being in the position he was with Emma, to realize that things aren’t always what they seem. Yet I think he got there, and it was part of his reason for resisting what Emma was saying about Tamara.
Neal wasn’t distrusting Emma so much as he was unwilling to leap to a conclusion about another person who he thought loved him, as he had in the past about Hook.

I think it is funny that Neal is ready to get Emma’s back against Tamara IF she has Regina. Regina tried to kill him and his father and tried to brainwash his son into loving only her. He doesn’t even ask the question I know I asked. “Just a thought Emma, but is what she is doing really bad? We’re talking about the Evil Queen?” Nope, he wasn’t going to let Tamara carry out her plans whatever they were. Tamara points out, he of all people should understand her anti-magic agenda, but he doesn’t side with her. He doesn’t do even a tenth of the justification we see fans do for all the bad acts of various characters on the show.

The kind of thing I’m doing right now actually, trying to understand someone’s point of view in a way that puts it in the best light. Obviously on a shipper thread you’ll slant things one way or another but I like to keep my sense of logic when I do it. So I’m not excusing that Neal was a bit blind about Tamara, but I don’t think he was unreasonably blind about it to the point where Emma would feel hurt over it. She’s had experience lately having to believe crazy things, but it doesn’t make it easier to make sense of everything. I think she’d cut him slack on that one.

Some fans though don’t want to cut him any slack. Yet to me it is just as complicated to say Hook trusted Cora not Emma as it would be to say Neal trusted Tamara not Emma. Yet back to Hook and Neal, and their broken bond–I think it affected both of them profoundly. I do think they both wished they had handled it differently in hindsight. So it led to both of them doing things in the finale, created obstacles to their willingness to trust Emma, but in the end they both did.

If the writers toss that history aside to write teen soap style enemies turned lovers with Hook and Emma, with Neal in the role of “why was she ever with that guy” obstacle, I fear it would make all three more shallow characters than I think they are now written to be. They do not exist in a show that is only about the three or even two of them, or even a pure romance genre story. We have seen back story and point of view for all three, but obviously a lot of fans bifurcate Neal from Bae, just like they do Hook from a barely glimpsed “Killian Jones”. Both men have their own “they were once”, they are both, and this season “they are truly” story to tell. I doubt Hook’s story is that he only cares for himself, or even only for himself and Emma, and I doubt Neal’s will be that too.

So because of all that, when I see Eddy saying things like Hook has his sights set on Emma, I am pretty confident there is more to the story, there always is with this show.

[kfchimera]

I agree Trudia–just because you’ve been somewhere doesn’t mean you could recognize it on a map. Or even find your way around it WITH a map. (I may relate way too much to that!).

There’s speculation that Regina had been there because of something J.Mo said in an interview where she said Regina and Hook had been there before versus her character, and it seemed like she let that slip as we didn’t know Regina had been there. So she may have meant to say Rumple, but said Regina (because she gets asked about Regina more than Rumple I think).

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

I like both ship names, and I agree “manly” is subjective as is attractiveness but I think Felix looks boyish compared to RH’s actor. Plus RH has a legacy to fill so I can guess at his personality more easily than Felix who is right now in the role of “generic evil lackey”. I can’t ship Regina with a generic evil lackey but a complex character who does bad things for good reason, or otherwise has perspective to overlook her past, maybe lost what he thought was his one true love? That I can do, especially if there is an interesting and non-Regina reason he lost that love. To me that could be Eric, RH or Hook but right now RH seems most plausible to me given the spoilers. The big question is what happened to Marian and the baby.

So I like the Tamara is his daughter idea, but with a wrinkle that I think Marian started to age. So before the curse hit, RH sent Maraian away to keep her from dying. She is the grandmother we saw. Somehow Tamara ends up growing up in the land without magic. Her mother pretends to be her grandmother but is bitter about magic. Rh ends up in Cora’s bubble. He is part of a hunting party so he never sees Snow, and escapes when Cora slaughters everyone else. He makes his way to the Dark Castle to hide, maybe find a way to reunite with Marian, thinking she might still be alive.

The person who helped Marian will turn out to be connected to the Home Office, which actually exists though Pan hijacked GOAT to his own ends. The HO will lead to Oz.

Maybe that it too convoluted but I think Marian met a tragic end.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Yes, we don’t know that Hook and Tink have met yet. That writer guessed they had, but it might not be the case.

There’s way more speculation on speculation at this point, so if we list out the actual spoilers in direct quotes from A&E we would find a lot of room for various interpretations. I’d be careful of using the entertainment journalist’s speculation to rule things out. They’re often wrong–sometimes deliberately so because (like when they stressed Tamara’s ordinary-ness) it just is the plan to create a twist.

I think young and innocent Regina is talking to young and innocent Tink, but it could be any mix. I do agree Regina probably had more than one dress, but the fact remains–it’s a match for the one she wears in the 2-day before wedding flashback. I think the only reason to put her in that dress again is to say it is that same day or close to it time-wise. People, even well-off ones, do repeat outfits of course so no one is saying she had just the one dress, but the producers would use the same one to indicate time period. Pre-wedding, per-apprenticeship, pre-EQ.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

6th episode out of 22 episodes? I would think that is still early. They didn’t say “early in the first half of the season”.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

I really doubt RegalCat–and the actual spoiler is ONLY that WE will meet her eventual love interest early in the season. We have a second spoiler from Lana that it is a “he” and that her character (maybe herself?) has not met him.

The writer of that article just assumed that meant that Regina would meet him early on, and therefore since Regina is in NL he would have to be hail from Neverland. The writer made that bit up and didn’t think about the fact that maybe Regina meets the love interest in flashback or that someone else might come to NL unexpectedly (like say, Robin Hood arriving with Neal from FTL?). Or that Regina might end up back in SB earlier in the season than we all think. Or that Regina doesn’t meet the love interest, but we do.

So for example, maybe it is Eric, and we meet Eric in SB with Belle. Regina doesn’t meet him. She doesn’t have scenes with him. It’s not for a long while down the road, after we see a lot of good out of Regina and reform that she even does meet him, and by then she’s not sure how anyone could love her after all she’s done, so she doesn’t interpret his attention as love.

I think Hook is ruled out, and while Felix isn’t, I really don’t think he would fit Lana’s idea of “manly”.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

That makes sense Phee!

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

The idea of them rebounding together doesn’t seem quite right. I feel Hook has to change who he is first, in terms of that ruthlessness and thirst for vengeance, not reform out of romantic love for someone. Plus, there are huge gaps in what we know about him and Ariel (obviously!).

So all of Hookriel (or really any Hook ship) is based on a lot of guess-work about what he might be like beyond “you killed my Milah, prepare to die!”. What was he like before he met her, when he was with her? We have only glimpses and the few scenes I saw say classic romantic swashbuckling pirate rather than thuggish, brute type pirate. Yet that romantic pirate was still the guy who in service of his revenge has done a lot of things that one of the most classic examples of romantic swashbuckling pirate, Wesley as Dread Pirate Roberts, would never do. (Wes only pretended to be bad…Hook on the other hand..I see him more like Ignio who was a straight up Henchman/revenge seeker and he takes over the Dread Pirate thing after Wesley.). The biggest difference though–is Wesley fell in love with Buttercup when they were both just peasants more or less, and she realized after he left that she loved him too. Hook fell in love with a woman who was willing to leave her family for him, and she fell in love with him even knowing he was a pirate.

I sympathize a little with Milah in that I think she was miserable and did have few options in that type of society. Rumple wasn’t going to change for her, and she couldn’t change how miserable she felt trapped in the village. We see the pictures she drew to show that she is yearning for more beyond the confines of the village.

Now who does that sound like? A certain red head who also dreamed of life beyond ? Also willing to leave her family, thirsting for adventure? Of course, leaving a father, friends and sisters is vastly more acceptable than leaving a young son who is dependent on you. We expect children to grow up and to become independent (especially in western culture, though much less the norm in other parts of the world and historically, were families stayed together to take care of each other into old age). So no one faults Ariel but think for a minute about the fact her best friend is a fish, and that her husband’s people eat fish. Ah, the dark and gruesome side of Disney. It is like one of those Vampire tales in a way, if you look at it from the fish’s perspective!

We need to understand what background they are giving Hook and Ariel, the closer this crackship gets to speculative, the tougher it is to just invent the perfect scenario in my head. I always assumed a lot, that Ariel would be main cast eventually, that she would be in her 30’s, that there would be this mashup with Eric. The last is not happening, and now we have this curious “become a mermaid” thing. Where is Eric? Did she love him and lose him or did she leave him for adventure? Her story may not even be as big as Eric’s.

To what extent does Hook reform to be with someone? Does he change completely who he is at this point? Did he choose to be a pirate, or is that something he fell into being but he always longed to stay in one place but just needed enough gold to do it? I had the feeling he just genuinely enjoys what he did as a pirate. He does feel deeply, can love, but he sees a line but is willing to cross it if it gets him what he wants, and if that hurts someone else, well, that person should have just fought harder to stop him. That would mesh well if Ariel also sort of comes from a fish eat fish sort of world. There’d be a toughness to her.

Then there is the main cast thing.
JoAnna is not that unknown but she does have a young family so is she willing to relocate part of the year to film OUAT? Colin obviously made the choice for his career to do just that, but JoAnna is a bit more “Privileged” (she starred in that show). She has done the commute to Canada (though other side of the country, Montreal) as a child star, so she has experienced that. Her husband likely travels a lot for his sports career. I think it is hard to say either way.

So I’ll still be thrilled if they do Hookriel if all these things work out but if Hookriel happens where some of my assumptions are not met (like JoAnna isnt main cast, Ariel is more sweet and innocent and truly in love with Eric) then it has to stay as a what-could-have been kind of thing for me.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Also possible they’re using the same set, but it is not the same scene. We were thinking Regina’s dress matches exactly the one she wears during We are Both, where she pushes Cora into the glass. So that was 2 days before her wedding and a that time, Snow would have been a little girl.

So I think they just used the same set piece–they took down the sunflowers and things to make it look a little different.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

I agree Phee, it happened that same morning, before Regina called on Rumple.

I wonder if Tink had anything to do with preserving Daniel’s body? Could have been Rumple too but I’ve always wondered.

I get the feeling Regina probably went out to meet the “people” as their new Queen.

Cora says “Oh, a looking glass. Not nearly as personal. I wonder, sometimes, if the people really love you.” And Henry mentions the wedding is in 2 days. Maybe Regina was given a tour of kingdom and she tried to slip away and met Tink.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

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