[kfchimera]

Keb–great points, I liked your listing (you are on top of the pesky details!).
I don’t think Rumpel is a hidden saint–I think he does do bad things for selfish reasons even though his main motivation is finding his son, which is very sympathetic as a cause. I just don’t think manipulating an innocent young lady who has had her heart crushed (or rather her True Love’s) into a monster that must kill her own father, and along the way not actively doing anything about fueling her need for revenge and magic, shows him to be much of a saint. He could have really helped limit collateral damage from the fall out of many things and chose not to do so. To put it this way–even though he wanted to find his son, he caused Henry Sr. to lose his daughter in a round-about-way. Cora is hugely to blame for damaging Regina, and of course, Regina made many bad choices all on her own, but Rumpel also could have said “No matter my pain, I cannot inflict similar or worse things on others.” Yet he does, though usually in such a round-about fashion with the deals that it is not as powerful as what we see out of Regina, since usually people consent to the conditions he poses them. Yet I don’t see him as a saint.

I’ve often wondered this about fairytales–there’s often a “teacher” character who creates some magical situation that the hero has to solve, then rewards the hero. Whether it is a beggar woman at the castle door, a peddler on the side of the road, or whatever, the not-so-good folk don’t help, but the hero is the one who does. The flip side is the “trickster” who sets the situation up to hurt the hero, not to test their virtue and reward them (this is the original Rumpel category from the fairytale). It can be tricky to tell which is which in some fairytales, but I think Rumpel is more trickster than teacher, though in some cases people learn something out of his deals. It’s not really his intent to help them though in this story. It’s all for his own good and aims–even when he’s dealing with Charming and Snow and it seems like he’s helping people and not really tricking them too badly, he kind of sort of has his masterplan in mind, always. Except Belle–I think that was one time he just sort of was like, why not–I don’t think he had a larger purpose for her in mind.

[kfchimera]

Oooh 😈 trap for Emma! That’s very interesting. It would definitely play into the theme they’ve talked about her magic for Season 3.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Yes–Charming holding Emma would make a great daddy day card.
Jefferson and Grace are my favorite–that stuffed bunny he makes her!

George is nasty, no doubt. I’m going to pick on King Leo for a second. He seemed really great at first in Poisonous Tree, like world’s best dad material–but what was up with him not being there when Eva is dying and Snow is losing her mother? (I know actor availabiity + Plot necessity). Then to drag poor Snow around so he can get a replacement mother–no one would replace Eva, and certainly all those “endless ” trips were not letting Snow really get her mind off it. Plus, we all know how THAT turned out–even if Regina wasn’t so bad when he married her, something was off there.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

I would like a storyline about power struggles in SB, but it could work with them trying to rebuild in FTL too. I do want action and adventure to continue in some way. I want there to be some new big puzzle–like Oz or how to stop the Ogres.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Mysterykat—here is more cheese for the magical exhausted mice and *cookies* for everyone else.
Seaweed biscuits for those of us on Hookriel crackship!
I wrote most of this in response to 2 posts back of Mysterykat, and then just edited in stuff off the last. I agree most of this was talked over quite a bit.
I also feel a bit “fried” literally typing on a laptop here….getting warm….but since I’ve been working on this over the course of the last day will post anyway rather than throw all the work of my magical mice away—there’s a long hiatus to go–so maybe someone will enjoy reading some more 😆 😮 😯 😆

@Phee wrote:

If she’s the one he primarily looks at and speaks to, IMO that’s down to the fact that she’s the only one who is remotely interested in talking to or listening to him, so naturally, she’s the one he has to address if he wants to be heard at all by the group as a whole.

A very good point! On the boat, I do think Hook will naturally seek out Emma as the least hostile source of conversation. Everyone else is giving him the “I’m watching you because I don’t trust you” stare. Regina looks at people like that on principle anyway, and he did just walk away while she was tortured. The Charmings have not yet seen him really prove himself, and they probably figure they didn’t shoot him in the face, so that pays off his returning with the bean.

“Phee” wrote:

However, we’ve already seen that Henry’s greatest wish is for his parents to be back together, so if Hook is standing in the way of that, I don’t see Henry wanting to be friends with him.

I’m not sure about that—I think Henry likes the idea of them reuniting, but I think his greatest wish would be everyone happy, so if Emma really bonded with Hook, and Hook played a big role rescuing him, I guess I could see Henry accepting it, if Nealfire could get over it too—but its a mess for sure.

Maybe it’s just because I’d quite like to be on the receiving end, but I’ve got nothing against some Hook innuendos. 😉 (I know many people think it’s gross, but I say bring it.)

Lol. Emma herself rolled her eyes so she did not find it funny or attractive but it did not phase her as she is tough. She was a bailbondsperson in Boston, not a delicate flower of victorian womanhood.

So, this is his new goal, this is his new “fight”, to prove Bae’s statement wrong, to prove to himself and everyone else that he can be unselfish.

Emma is the savior, and that responsibility is going to weigh on her mind. These two could have similar trajectories of “what about my happy ending—when do I get what I want”. Probably they get it, when they realize their own happiness depends on that of others too. That’s what everyone is realizing—how they are all connected.

I’ve seen posts from yourself in particular saying how you don’t really see that they’ve established a strong basis for SF in present day/future. So even if the long posts have each taken me several hours to read/reply to each time, I figured it was worthwhile putting this side of the argument out there, given that it’s not a thread specific to one ship, and the discussion has been thoughtful and civil on both sides. 🙂

^This times however many pages we’ve added to the thread!

Now I’m going to add a bit directly to that post of MysteryKat again:

I’ve mostly looked at it from Emma’s perspective recently & I think that’s where a lot of my anger with him comes from but I freely admit that for her (and me) that that may subside with time and more info – just as I hope people start seeing more in Hook given the same.

I give Hook loads of credit and the benefit of the doubt even if I don’t see everything as strongly as you do. This is why I have said on the CS thread that the logic of being anti-SF is not good for CS either—but it works the other way around too. Emma has to forgive things to be with either. Not the same kinds of things, but if she is not the kind of woman to be able to put herself in someone else’s shoes and see what isn’t obvious from only her own point of view, then her heart won’t go to either of them. If she doesn’t have thick skin and ignore the occasional immature comment, she won’t like Hook’s snark or Neal’s sass. They all know pain, regret, and being alone and want family. In some ways, its like 2 sides of the same coin. It’s not like she’s choosing between Charming on one hand and Rumpel on the other (and even those two have more in common than they’d like to admit, and both are romantic heroes even if it started off looking like hero and villain).

I hope I go back to being torn just as much as I think Emma will be watching it all again if it ever hits Netflix (hiatus is bad enough, hurry up!).

You don’t need to be torn! You can see the logic and still say, this is NOT my cup of tea. Our perspectives and Emma’s are different, and are allowed to be different. How often do we see things make sense to Snow or Regina and over on the forums we are smacking our heads over it? Whatever the writers do, it fits within the story, and we try to make sense of it for the characters, even if it never makes sense emotionally to us, or would be what we would do, or how we would feel. I keep seeing people who say they just relate so much to Emma, when what they relate to is THEIR interpretation of Emma, so of course it relates to them! We can try to take off shipping goggles, but we can’t take off the filters that make us predisposed to like one sort of thing over another.

Can’t wait to see how it all unfolds and at least we can all agree that we want Emma to be happy, no matter what she chooses. .

Yes, shipping Emma and Happiness is really the best thing—or rather everyone and happiness. I am definitely not closed to CS. I agree there are many things the writers have done to put Hook interacting 1 on 1 with Emma, so again, not all spec ships are equally speculative, and SF is spec too. I do see Hook has grown, and will continue to grow and perhaps that is what the writers intended to do is pair him with Emma, or maybe it is something they will shift the plot around to accommodate.

Regarding Hook, you say:
@MysteryKat25 wrote:

she wanted to open up to him before and certainly let him in faster than we’ve seen with anybody else post-Neal.

Hook has a knack for pushing buttons with people and he did get her to admit things about herself, but I don’t think she “let him in”. She didn’t trust him at the end of Tallahassee, or at the start of the finale.

Contrast that to how Emma and Anton (Tiny) interact. At first, you think she’s just got this wary bargain with Anton, yet they are alike in a lot of ways. They’ve both experienced having no one, having been betrayed, and carrying a reminder of it. Tiny almost crushed Emma to death, rampaged through her town to kill her dad who he thought was James (sure she heard about it though she did not witness). She forgives and hugs the guy when she sees him! I would too, maybe I’m carrying FEELS from LOST, but there is something so sweet and huggable about Tiny. (Not enough to sail a TinySwan ship but I love that there’s a non-romantic, non family friendship for Emma). She let Tiny in, and since he wouldn’t have rampaged if Emma vouched for Snowing, I though it was apparently mutual trust. So compared to THAT, I don’t think she let in Hook. He got under her skin, sure, by a few comments that hit close to home, but I don’t think he broke through her walls. The good thing though is, clearly, Emma believes in second or third chances, and of course, understanding can grow with more interaction.

I don’t expect Neal to have a good reaction to it at all because he blames Hook for his family falling apart.

I fear the story would be written for the angst there as well. That is why I felt better about CS when Neal was still officially with Tamara. He would have been on the moral “low ground” to say anything in such a situation! Not that he gets the high ground in the present situation—he and Emma were not married (and even if they had been, of course, we all know how little that has mattered historically to Hook anyway. )

Given his strong reaction to Rumple though I wonder what’s going through his head *now* as he was upset with Hook for wanting to kill him and then a couple hundred years later is running from him.

Neal was still upset that Hook tried to kill his father in present day. He said as much, that Rumpel is still his blood. That’s why Neal tied up Hook in the closet, and stole the ship and sailed back without Hook. He wasn’t like “hey Hook, good to see you man, you did me a solid, killing my old man. I’ll call my girl T, and you, Emma, me and Henry can have the world’s most awkward double date.” (Sorry, that thought just cracked me up so much even though I KNOW no one even came close to thinking that. I should leave that stuff to Price of Magic’s commentary thread.)

At this very moment I don’t see how either guy could easily be just friends with Emma to be honest.

Age old question—can two people who are attracted to each other ever really be friends? I see what you’re saying that if they are paired off with other characters, it at least would imply the attraction was eclipsed by new love.

On the flip side Hook & Emma have this connection and when she’s in a room she is literally all he looks at.

I agree he does address himself to her at the dock and there is camera work flitting between these two. Though in the scene at the loft the 3 ladies are in a row, and he does look at Regina, and Charming, but he is looking at Emma because she is speaking to him a lot (and I totally agree with Phee—Emma is the one who listens to him). There is a cut of her reaction and then his to Regina’s words to Henry. Hook is also looking at Regina and Rumpel on the boat—when they surround the globe, he isn’t turned around staring at Emma. So I did not see it as he is besotted with her and only has eyes for her. Some of the focus too comes from her being the heroine, the savior, and the same thing sort of happens in her scenes with Rumpel. Then again, she has never fallen into Rumpel’s arms or had him make “comments” or say “hi beautiful.” So I do see Hook has a pattern of showing he finds Emma attractive that puts this camera work in a different context.

So if he does have to go find someone else, I hope it’s a new someone because I don’t buy that he’d go for Regina – they’d be toxic and he has had no regard for her safety whatsoever.

He and she have a history of betrayal, but his record with Emma’s safety is mixed too. He didn’t stay to watch Regina being tortured, and he did not look gleeful about her predicament. He understands her pretty well—he guessed how she would want the cuff. [Edit—not throwing HQ at you, but as you say it seems just “pair the spare” to you this is how I look at it, but I much more prefer Hookriel. Fan interest in both started before SF).

Regina at least is also played by a lead actress and gets loads of development and screen time—and she is changing, and more than other characters, could truly understand without judging what he has done. At first I thought it would just be like that Lada Gaga song, Bad Romance, a dark evil, twisted thing but they are both moving past only loving revenge. She also has walls up (but they are like siege walls topped with electrocuted fences and barbed wire compared to Emma’s walls) and does not trust easily. While I don’t think right now they’d bring out the best in each other and have tried to kill each other, I still see more there than between Neal and Regina. I would worry that Neal also isn’t sure enough of himself to kind of play the “Belle” role and redeem Regina (he did get played by Tamara). Regina would need someone who could stand up to her so she wouldn’t boss them around. He might be able to do that, as there are a good many things possible in the future, though I feel it is a stretch from what we have seen. Neal is very wounded, rough around the edges from living on the streets, so doesn’t much remind me of Daniel, who seemed more gentlemanly and noble (for a “peasant”).I [edit to incorporate 2nd post thoughts– I do not think it is compelling for these two to get together because I think it would be more angst with Emma. The CS would have to be a done deal, with Neal over it and Regina quite redeemed before I can picture it starting.]

I also really really want both guys to find love and they obviously can’t both find Emma so I am thinking ahead and trying to find things that actually make sense but need more interaction first to form any real attachment to any of it.

Given that Neal still loves Emma, and Hook, whether drawn or not, does not love her yet, I feel I’d prefer the storyline where Hook is the one who loves someone besides Emma, if we can put aside the question of which character could be written to grow to match her best. Long as we do not know the direction of the story, that is the way I would prefer it written at this time, even though I agree Neal ought to be mentally prepared to co-parent. Cue awkward bagel breakfast part II, on the Jolly Roger.

Rumple’s abandonment of Neal did have a far greater afffect than Milah running off with a pirate. However, I believe those issues will come to the surface when Neal sees Hook again, especially if Emma tells him to play nice because even if she’s NOT choosing to be with Hook, she’s still choosing to defend him and let him be a part of her / their lives and that will probably feel like a slap in the face to Neal.

This is a potential problem but then again—if he sees Rumpel and Hook getting along too it could just be more complicated than just about the romances.

(Honestly there was never any doubt in my mind after Tallahassee because of how he spoke of the lost boys but I know for some it took a long time to get to that point and they were pleasantly surprised with how cute the Hook teaching Bae to drive the ship scene was).

Those creepy lost boys that we have now met? Yes, that line seemed a lot different in meaning before I saw those guys tramping on his ship to chase down a boy for Peter Pan versus the cute little tykes in the animated movie. Speaking of less cute, that’s also how I felt when watching Hook and Bae in the episode rather than the promo pics. The undercurrent that Hook wasn’t being honest with Bae that he knew who he was ruined it for me. I was like, this isn’t going to end well. Then it didn’t.

So hopefully even if he’s just hovering in Emma’s circle we’ll at least get to see him become friends with Henry and I think Henry would like being friends with a pirate.

Henry seemed to get a kick out of the JR, though I do think if Neal is very anti-pirate it might rub off on Henry. I could see Henry being the one to help reconcile Neal and Hook though. Henry doesn’t want people to fight each other. How I feel about the forums—discuss and explain yes, but not attack for “daring” to have one opinion or another.

On the flip side, so far, Hook is all about Emma. Stupid innuendos aside, the only person he drops his facade for and has real conversations with is her.

Hook may become all about Emma, but he has not been all about her this season. Hook says to Emma in the hospital that he doesn’t know where Cora is, and she has her own agenda. I think he could have been more helpful there, and apparently so did Emma since she kind of tortured him by pushing on his cracked ribs. I’m sure Hook felt cautious as usual but to say he was “all about” Emma doesn’t reflect his motivations in that scene and many others. Emma does read him, and he her, and as Phee said—Emma is the one who gives the second chances, so Hook does see her as different than other of his adversaries, but I don’t think it is love yet.

In fact in that diner scene, I think HE had all kinds of emotions going on in his head just like every time that Neal had to make a tough choice.

Of course, characters are complex, and I totally agree that Hook was conflicted. I’m reminded of the scene from Avengers where Nick Fury says something like “I realize the council has made a decision, but seeing as it is a stupid (edited for awesome as always samuel jackson delivered obscenity) decision, I’m going to ignore it”. That probably was what was running through Hook’s mind—on the face of it, the decision sounded stupid.

When it’s something THAT important, she would have checked but she TRUSTED him. She was gutted when she opened it and it was empty.

Charming had it right before, so Hook had it for such a quick second. None of them bothered to check. They all trusted. Is she gutted that he of all people betrayed her? Maybe, but I saw it more as “oh snap we’re all dead, how could I have been so stupid, Hook touched the pouch! I totally called he’d do that.” Back in her apartment, one of the first things she said was that he’d betray them, after he got the beans, and then Charming said he’d shoot Hook in the face if they tried anything.

She questioned it when he came back and his explanation was directed at her. As I said previously the bean is their symbol (whether it’s friendship or more) and he handed that back to her. She didn’t have to hand it to him to throw into the water. She could have thought “Neverland” to herself and tossed it.

I see what you mean in terms of the writers choosing to show them exchange an object. What Phee said—did she know what to do with it?

Love it or hate it they do have something and it clearly affects her / gets to her just as much as her jealousy was coming out with the Neal/Tamara situation.

Yes, the finale did provide some development. I’m not sure he’s affecting her because its HIM so much as what it is he is doing that everyone reacts to and is affected to some degree—ie tricking them then offering to help unexpectedly. Though you do have a point that she did reveal the real reason for the council decision was Henry’s dad’s “death”, which she did not tell anyone else—but it was the first thing he heard when he comes into the room in the Loft at the start. Henry is saying he lost his Dad, then says something about working together, and in walks Hook. The door was wide open to the stairs. Hook walks in and indicates he heard what Henry’s last line was—though he is not in the room until the last part. So it is possible he heard that Henry just lost his dad, and was wondering about it.
He may have wondered why she was in NY when he stabbed Rumpel. How did he know where to go anyway? Did he overhear something about Neal, because he added up Neal = Baelfire fast. Emma did not tell him.

They made a point of showing us her face when Hook came back. He’s given her hope and that’s something she hasn’t had a lot of in a long time.

I would feel it meant more to her if he hadn’t stolen the hope and bean away in the first place. She was not warmly welcoming him back to the dock. It could be they showed her face because she was the one that tried to convince him, as she was the one connected to Neal. It’s that duality thing. She had huge hope right after they all woke up and realized in the mine “Hey, we lived!”. Then they lost it with Henry being kidnapped. She had hope when they had the crop ready to go home, yet also fear. She had hope when Regina took down the barrier at the well and they all warily dusted themselves off for a dinner at Granny’s. She’s had hope other times as well. It was a big moment of hope all the same, I do see that and think it huge for Hook, and yes, a big CS moment.

I’m not sure where Hook would fit in because you don’t just wake up and stop being attracted to someone you have a deep connection with (another reason that if SF happens, Emma will have to deal with her connection to Hook because Neal won’t like it but I don’t see her backing down on it, even if it’s as just friends).

I don’t think they have a deep connection—I absolutely think they could have, through more positive shared experiences, but up to this point in the story—it’s been 2 steps forward 3 steps back, 1 step forward, and back where they started. I agree Emma won’t allow Neal’s issues to force her to give up on someone she trusts and likes just because he doesn’t trust or like them. Yet you can wake up eventually and stop being attracted if you realize the feeling isn’t mutual and would never be. That works both ways of course, it could apply to Neal as well as Hook.

I really agree with what RumplesGirl wrote:

I think he is drawn to her because they do have a lot in common but also from a practical standpoint: she is only person he can talk to without getting hit.

Not always even that, as she pushed his cracked ribs! (That hurts.) In fact, if I could do a fan video it would be funny to do that song “Love Hurts” by Nazareth with all the times these two have punched, shoved, hit, or otherwise caused each other pain. They wouldn’t be the first epic TV couple to start off being physically violent in some ways with each other and won’t be the last, but it doesn’t read romance to everyone, nor do writers always intend such things to be taken as romance.

Back to MysterKat’s thoughts:

I’m definitely expecting a confrontation between Neal & Hook regardless, and I hope it doesn’t start out as a “you destroyed my family once I won’t let you take Emma” kind of thing because in this case Neal is in the wrong. Tamara tried to kill everyone and took Henry and Hook is doing everything he can, including getting along with his worst enemy, to save him. Emma has every right to defend that and I fully expect her to.

Hook is far more to blame for what GOAT tried to do than is Neal, though neither really knew GOATs goals, and neither did GOAT. I notice you keep saying Tamara instead of Greg and Tamara as if she acted alone in kidnapping Henry. Hook made a deal to help them and got them the failsafe (though he didn’t know what it was or know they’d be after Henry). Neal on the other hand never knew about their plans in the least. He was duped by Tamara, so to the extent he would be in the wrong, it is not because of his past connection to Tamara.

I agree he ought to appreciate the change in Hook in rescuing Henry—but emotionally, finding out Emma and Hook paired off could be a large enough “kick in the guts” as Phee said that he’s too upset to really appreciate that fact. I don’t see Hook being noble and steping aside, but I’m not sure Neal would do that either—ultimately, it still is up to Emma. Some might love the train wreck that this scenario would be—but I cringe. All the more reason it is probably exactly what the writers might do!

I just hope that doesn’t only hinge on Hook letting Neal have Emma. I would hate to see that as one of the things I love about Hook IS his quote of “A man unwilling to fight for what he wants deserves what he gets” and that would greatly undermine that for me, especially if there’s a lot of build up for him obviously caring for Emma.

“Letting” sounds like Emma has no choice in it—it’s not up to either guy who she wants—what is up to them is who they want. Hook can fight til he’s blue in the teeth, but if Emma doesn’t want him, then she doesn’t. Same for Neal. You don’t win someone’s heart by fighting those who love them, you do it by loving and fighting FOR the person you love.

However, the bean has always been the symbol of the CS relationship (whatever it is, romantic, friendship, literally whatever, that has been their symbol).

Yes, I can see that.

Hook gets very little from turning around to help a bunch of people that hate him to make a dead guy happy. EMMA is the one who has reached an arm out to him and offered him a chance to be a part of something.

I agree that had impact on Hook. I’m not sure he gets so little out of honoring a dead guy if it is something that has haunted him for centuries, so I see both interpretations as valid (that Hook wants a future with Emma versus regretting the mistakes in his past with Bae and Milah).

In reference to Neal,

I just felt like he was still hurt by the situation as a whole that Emma was around to see that. It’s one thing to hear about it afterwards and it’s hard enough then because you don’t want to picture him with someone else or being hurt by it (in any way) and the coming back, but to see it play out changes the dynamics of it.

I’m not sure it changes it in a way that lessens what they felt for each other, as it was heavily hinted both were suppressing their real feelings and suspected it. I don’t think Emma was clueless that he was still attracted to her (Emma)—she saw the dreamcatcher, he asked about the necklace, it’s just neither felt free to express anything of what they really felt underneath the guilt and hurt until Tamara was out of the picture, and some of Emma’s anger was reduced by his apology and explanation. She says in a roundabout way it killed her to see him finding Tallahassee with someone else, and yes, there is that pain, but finding out it wasn’t real probably took a lot of the sting of it out. One way to be sure he’s not going back to the other lady is her saying it was a con and shooting him.

On one hand I think she’ll let it go because she always believed in them and was proven right because he finally admitted it. On the other hand she’s watched him interact with this woman that she never trusted (and not only because she was jealous) and she’s seen him essentially throw fits defending how much he needed Tamara.

It was one scene where he said he needed Tamara, and Emma was overeacting first. The guy almost lost his father. This was his fiance, that knew something about the situation since he had to borrow the car. Yes, SB is a place with special issues, but even Emma said Neal should tell Tamara all the truth. At that point, no one knew Tamara was evil, regardless of what we learned in hindsight—and the audience knew it long before Neal or even Emma suspected anything.

So it’s not necessarily going to be the fact that he moved on with someone else but still had feelings for Emma and it will be easily swept aside because she wants to believe it, but more that she will be battling with herself because of what she has seen and heard too. She did call him out on not believing in her lying ability and now I think her instincts are in check because she has confirmation that they were right (and they usually are).

Those instincts of hers are constantly suspect just like BF. Cora lied to her when disguised as Lancelot. Hook lied to her about Cora, and though it wasn’t a verbal lie—it was sort of one with the bean pouch switcheroo. So I think Emma is aware that lie detection/trust is complicated, and I doubt she is going to bring any of that up when she reunites with Neal. Not unless he is written as constantly doubting her instincts (which other than Tamara, I don’t think he was shown as doing).

It’ll just *hurt* her more because he chose not to believe in her as much overall, and on top of that she was forced to watch as he brought Tamara to SB, and to watch as he defended her time and time again, and to watch him be broken up with and told it was all a lie and be hurt by that (even if it is just the situation).

He didn’t choose not to believe IN her—he chose not to believe some things she was saying without proof or rational explanation. Things she didn’t even want to bring up to him without having the proof—but he came back to his room early and saw through the little rouse with the door stumble. He told her he knows she will always find what she is looking for in the scene in the loft. He was willing to believe there could be proof of Tamara’s evilness. He went all the way to the beach with her. He took her advice and told Tamara everything about the magic.

Here is my problem with your view on this—there’s a circularity to love. Whichever guy she picks, she has to forgive stuff to love them, or perhaps because she loves, she forgives.

He wasn’t worried about protecting the town, he was focused on bonding with Henry and wanted to stay for his son (admirable) and that would have been a great time to end things with Tamara because he just found out about his son and wasn’t committed to staying in NY etc etc, but he chose to bring her to him and TOLD EMMA that he needed her here. He knew that that would mean having a relationship with Tamara IN FRONT OF EMMA and he chose that. Against his deepest wishes sure, but he still chose it and she had to watch their relationship unfold, all the while being untrusted.

Why should he have been worried about the town on top of everything else he had going on? He trusted Tamara, and we only found out later that she was the wrong person to trust. So yes, Neal did say he needed Tamara, and yes, in front of Emma, but really, his purpose was not to rub in that he had moved on but he was going through a huge crisis. He needed someone on his side to support him, being back in a place of magic with his father nearby and realizing he has a son—and perhaps also struggling with his feelings for Emma conflicting with guilt that he has committed to Tamara. That is face to face news to borrow a phrase from How I Met You Mother. He apologized to Emma saying he hadn’t thought it through and Emma’s walls go right up and she says the bit about not apologizing to her, but to be truthful with Tamara. Far from not trusting Emma, Neal takes her advice about that.

Emma has spent a good portion of her life hurt by Neal though and I’m not willing to say anything 100% as to whether forgiving = starting over in a romantic way. It might, it might not.

There is the possibility of course, that she will forgive but fall out of love. Sounds less in keeping with the hopeful, fairytale nature of the show to me as a resolution. If Neal is depicted as constantly doubting Emma, then he would be the wrong guy. I just didn’t see that in their interactions. He believed in her in the past and in the present quite a bit even if he did not believe her about Tamara.

Emma’s story is very much still in the middle and we haven’t seen any proof yet.

We haven’t seen proof of “curse breaking true love”–but we have seen love survive despite a gap of 12 years, apparent betrayal, another relationship and that is pretty remarkable. We have seen they do still trust each other, even if there was the obvious conflict about Tamara.

Neither has been under a sleeping curse, we don’t know if Henry is the product of TL because we don’t know why specifically he was the kid in the drawing or what his connection to PP is, we haven’t seen somebody try to take his heart (and I would really rather they didn’t, poor kid has been through enough) etc. We just don’t yet know FOR CERTAIN one way or the other.

Quite honestly, it doesn’t matter what proof is in the show, there will always be fans who doubt how the story “should” go—there’s still pages up for Harry and Hermione in “Harry Potter”. A curse-breaking scene would be awesome, but it wouldn’t “prove” anything to some. And on some level—should it? Shipping is about fan imagination and desire, not proving some analysis of the story (despite how many magic mice die in pursuit of that !). So even though I spend all this time explaining SF, and where I don’t see as much present (as opposed to potential) as you see in CS—I believe absolutely in your right to like what you like and want to root and root hard for it. The end of the story isn’t there, and what I might want it to be is by no means how it “should” be—and we all have seen how accurate most of our theories are! There are huge puzzle pieces missing.

Her life has been manipulated and controlled enough and sometimes the heart wants what the heart wants, without rhyme or reason.

Yes, though again, I am not seeing that Emma wants Hook right now. They haven’t even been good friends so before imagining this heartbreak for Neal, given that I think Neal and Emma could work out what they need, that is why I lean SF. For the fans though, I see it would already be disappointing given how much people have invested in both ships.

I see both sides and yes it would be an epic story to have them overcome all of these obstacles like every other couple has. I just see the same potential in CS.

Yes, there is potential for CS and the writers are very careful as well with how they answer questions to keep that hope alive, so hopefully next season will make things clearer, but this may be a series long thing.

Now on to Mysterkat’s next post….

Yes, Tallahasee set up chemistry, but my point is that the ending of that episode sort of ended whatever potential may have been there—for now. I agree it could start up again, just like Neal and Emma—so once again, what works logically for SF, is true for CS too. You could say, Neal and Emma had a relationship, and Emma and Hook had a date. The depth of the relationships were different, even if it was a really, really good date until she choked at the end. What followed up after that date was not so good at all—no real increase in the closeness between the two.

honestly regardless of the reason: he came back and that’s what she needed, whether he’s a friend or more, she needed someone to do something that she believed that they would).

Tiny did what he said he would—he let Hook go. He’s the one that grew those beans you keep talking about. How does Tiny figure into all this? I do like that he’s Emma’s “Grumpy” so it could be he and Hook actually have a friendship, and he gave that dried bean to Hook—but it’s fun headcannon until we know. I just think Hook isn’t the only one who’s been “there” for Emma. Mulan also would have followed through on what Emma asked, but more than being a good soldier, she was reluctant to leave the fight at the portal until Snow told her she could go. It’s her trait to be loyal and a good soldier—so not specific to Emma, but again, it’s not like Emma is Hook, who has only known betrayal and mistrust. Hook needs Emma far more than Emma (right now) needs Hook.

When they showed reaction shots on the dock right before everyone got on the ship, they made a point of showing Snowing, Rumbelle, & Hook/Emma. That’s 2 canon couples and then one potential one. They didn’t include Regina standing with anyone as a couple.

This is true—I think these non-dialog, non-plot clues for CS, are easy to miss, and harder to tell as its quick to check a transcript but to get to a specific scene and rewatch can take time. Yet TV is a visual medium, so these things ARE important—how they frame, who looks at who and all that. So I do agree there is movement for CS in the finale, and a moment in Tallahassee—it’s just most of the season it took a backwards direction.

I’m not sure I feel comfortable saying that Bae was ever his son.

The Regina/Owen parallel there is spot on—no, they were never day-to-day caregiver and child. Yet lots of people said how icky it would be if they pair Owen and Regina. He does not owe Neal the same things he would a son, nor do I think Neal expects it. Still, to ignore the connection and emotions there seems off to me a little. As I said somewhere, sometimes it happens anyway—like in the movie Clueless (where Cher ends up with her ex-step-brother Josh, a movie based on Austen's novel, Emma). I think it is a coincidence but who knows, maybe it was an influence on the writers.

That whole scene where he was “working with” GOAT reminded me more of his self-preservation mode and when asked if he was in his “absolutely” should have been sending off MAJOR red flags to GOAT because it was not remotely convincing.

His “self-preservation” often involves danger to others, even if he does minimize it unlike Cora. Tamara totally gave Greg a look when Hook says this by the way, a look that to me read “Yeah, I don’t buy that, but we know exactly what you are going to go do, so let’s go through this charade.” He was going to work with them though, until HE had to die too. We’ll never know—if GOAT had told Hook that he could survive as long as he’s using the last bean to return to FTL first—well the writers didn’t choose to do it that way. So we don’t know if it was all the innocent lives that bothered him, or doubt that they were right about the Dark One dying too, or what. What we know is at the end, Hook did choose to come help, so once again, yes, that is a huge bit of good, then his offering to help find Henry is big too.

In-law stuff

All moot points, as you’re right, Neal and Emma weren’t married, nor Hook and Milah, and regardless, pirates don’t seem to care about it. What is marriage but a social contract anyway? On some level, you can make personal commitments, and that is what Hook and Milah had—and I daresay, so did Neal and Emma as they “promised to take care of each other.” Yes, before you can point it out, he did break that promise—but he broke it to keep it in a weird way. Milah of course died. So I don’t know if technicalities determine anything but clearly there are some odd emotional connections here all the same.

seriously the hatred around here constantly trying to get rid of Hook and/or Belle is ridiculous!)

Some posters just love Snow so much they become Grumpy. It’s not all tied to shipping either.

If anybody is capable of deep love, it’s Hook

Yes, he is capable of it—but people can love deeply and still be selfish outside of that love. I do think Hook is a GREAT character, and am not hating him in the least, nor want him gone or paired off with someone convenient (though my headcannon Ariel is every bit as awesome as Emma…so if he is not with Emma, I have to agree Regina gives me pause…and might be easier with a fresh character if it is not Emma, the same for Neal. I love the pirate/mermaid thing so can’t quite get Ariel with Neal—unless they reveal he is more piratey than we thought. I guess Wendy might still be out there somewhere for Neal).

if anyone is delusional with regards to the show, it’s the people running the promo department. Hopefully we can all agree about that at least!

Did you see the Men of Storybrooke one—lol they have that line about a date from August…the guy who is now a kid. Sigh.

One of my biggest gripes is that I like Emma as a character so much for who she is today and nothing I have seen *so far* suggests to me that she would be staying true to her character if she goes back to Neal *right now*

I think there are hints that some of Emma’s tricks and toughness she learned from Neal—and as Phee said, though not his intent, the pain he caused her is kind of the reason she’s so steel balllzy. Yet she was pretty brave back in the day too—so I don’t think I agree that she is “reverting” in a bad way to be with him. You have to remember, how she was with Neal is not the same as she was a decade after he left her and she was isolating herself. When she was with him, she had hope and love. So I think this is something you are missing—because the person MM saw, was the person Emma became after Neal left.

Yes she was distracted emotionally and it takes her awhile to jump to that conclusion, but she usually manages to if it’s truly the last second and instead she let him go

He lets go of her. She did not want him to, but it is a good point—she just forgets she has magic. Watch the portal scene—its hard to see, but his grip opens first I thought. Such a parallel to his situation with Rumpel.

I would like to argue the point about what Neal may or may not have known/been expecting. The impression I’ve gotten from the 2 times we’ve seen Neal & August interact is that when the curse is broken, August will let Neal know (which he did, including after a reminder immediately before heading to SB) but nowhere did I get the impression that August was going to tell Emma everything and that SHE would go after HIM. Now, I get why that’s a fun headcanon and I’m not ruling it out. I’m just saying that I personally never got the impression that just because the curse was broken that she would know absolutely everything. I don’t recall August promising him that.

Nothing gives us the impression that Neal had that expectation –but it does seem odd to think August would hide from Emma the fact that he helped break up her relationship years earlier. Unless there’s a scene where Neal and August discuss that Neal has to be the one to tell her. It’s just puzzling me is all. Why only a postcard? What August does do is PROMISE to be “there” for Emma to Neal. Dialog in Tallahassee.

I see why Neal may think that, in which case he should have waited a tiny bit longer after the curse broke before starting something with someone else if he was waiting to see (August went to see him right before he went to SB and Tamara “bumped into” him immediately after, so…if he was waiting/hoping to see what her reaction was, he failed miserably at doing that since he started something with Tamara before August even got to SB in the first place, much less may or may not have said anything to Neal.

Bumping into her on the street was not “starting” something with her. He was just being nice to someone he thought he had injured—Tamara then bootstrapped that into what she wanted, and we don’t know how/when/why that came about. It could be as Phee argued, he was emotional at his weakest point and he thought it was fate. It could be like I’m headcannoning that he was all innocent, worrying and waiting for the sign, and it came, and weeks went by, and he gave in with Tamara and it escalated fast. T-word issues, man, T-word. How long was Emma in FTL? Given Neal was so sure Emma wouldn’t forgive him, I don’t think he’d have to wait years to figure it out she wasn’t going to come.

For the record—no, August does not promise to do more than a postcard, and Neal does not ask him to do more. I don’t have the dialog from Selfless Brave and True, but its pretty brief too. All I am saying is, logically, why would you think August wouldn’t say anything? Hindsight he’s all ashamed and wooden, but Neal had no reason to know that. So what was reasonable for him to think? That Emma would have no idea or that she and August might have talked? He thought August would give her the money, the car and be there for her—turns out August didn’t do anything Neal expected (and Neal didn’t know otherwise until he met Emma). So for me, it is easy to imagine that there was one more thing Neal expected August to do—that yet again, August did NOT do. Obviously, August did NOT tell Emma anything. It is entirely in my imagination-headcannon though, for now, until we learn otherwise. So what I’m saying is, once again, there may be a difference in what Neal expected and knew and what Emma expected and knew. So Neal may have for a brief time (when Emma was in FTL) expected Emma to come, and then decided she isn’t—because with as long as they’d been apart, if you found out all that, you wouldn’t wait around (hat portals aside). So its not like he would think he’d need to wait more than a day before realizing, yes, she’s chosen not to come find me. As you say though, he may not have thought she would ever come look for him. He may have thought the bridge burned well and truly the day he left her.

I absolutely love Hook’s quote and I am a little torn on what to think about it because I do think he will be FAR more sympathetic to SF than Neal will ever be to CS (even as a friendship).

I agree.

I’m not sure who’s cramming HookedQueen at you—but tried to edit my earlier thoughts in there—only trying to respond to your comments about it.

I fear that if they don’t set him up with someone and have it be integral somehow (could be Emma, Ariel may be important – I hope she’s not a 1-shot deal, somebody else could step forward, who knows), that he will be backburnered

I understand that worry—really to me the strongest point for FQ or HQ is the Q is as front & center as Emma. Beyond that I do not see obvious foreshadowing for either.

Perhaps out there is somebody that can effectively argue HQ to me someday or perhaps I’ll find it on my own through the show but with everything we have to go on right now, that’s the only part of that “rhombus” (and I think Adam said he was only joking but goodness knows) that I can’t see remotely happening.

I’m not even trying to argue for it—just explain a little bit in response to your comments that imply its only something suggested to pair off Hook to make room for SF—when that to me is much more likely to be the case for FQ. HQ was talked about before the season started—and before Tallahassee. Its better with that scene in the dungeon talking about revenge being an end, than when I first saw the concept and thought of that Lady Gaga song bad romance (and I get some people LOVE that kind of thing) but still not something I’d go and try to root to happen.

I just wouldn’t be as surprised as I would be over FQ. Since there have not been any Neal/Regina alone scenes it is something that to me required a higher degree of imagination to consider. I don’t think Lana has talked about Neal for Regina, but she has mentioned Hook (though I think it was before we saw the OUAT version). So again—each of us will find one thing or another compelling or not as we see the clouds go, but I doubt people were looking for FQ shaped clouds as early as there were people looking for HQ ones (because Q has a lot of fans who seek her happiness, and applaud her evilness—personally, I didn’t like Regina/Graham but….each their own). I do not think we see a lot of those fans on these forums actively discussing but I’ve seeen stuff on tumblr/random comments here and there on video or news articles and such.

I will agree with the cloud metaphor though! In fact that may be my new favorite way of explaining we all see different things and it’s ok because we’re never going to get it right 100% of the time anyway!

I used that a few days ago when introducing a list of parallels in the SF thread that are visual with camera angles and things between Snowing and SF. A few of us kicked those around and many agreed that such things don’t mean much –or can be misleading because how many different ways can you show certain things? Or to go back to LOST—what is coincidence (writers didn’t plan it) and what is “fate” as the writers planned it. They can be fun to do all the same, and I actually like reading them—there are some great ones on the CS thread for CS.

Regina is still a central figure as she is one of Henry’s mothers and I think she’ll be very easily persuaded… Rumple to go to extremes to get Henry back (not that Emma wouldn’t, but her and her parents methods are vastly different from people like Rumple & Regina).

This is a good point—Hook was not as extreme as Cora and my headcannon is that the reason he hid under the rubble when Cora rage-attacked the village (we don’t know why she did it, my HC on it is she was furious about losing the wardrobe and took it out on those poor people). Hook freaked out and stole the bracelet while she was all hopped up on heart stealing and didn’t notice where he went. She’s powerful but not omniscient so she thought he’d run off.

Sorry, thought wandered off there, but anyway Hook has limits that I think are far short of the kind of destruction that Regina or Rumpel (as the Dark One) might advocate. I’m not sure how far Rumpel will go –but he did put the Dark Curse in motion even if we haven’t seen him slaughter a village.

I don’t really think he’s going to go in all guns blazing / magic-wielding and ignore the wishes of Snowing & Emma when he knew they were planning on doing things the long hard stupid way to save Regina (which is all he knew was in store for him when he turned around to help).

I agree—cue the Nick Fury speech again—I could totally see Hook calling them on something this time with NL is not that happy, it won’t work, or whether that is the full-evil choice. He might back up Emma or he might talk her into something—he is a wildcard in this mix.

Again, I take everything with a grain of salt from the morons in the PR department.

So true—I think if you take out the August scene with the date comment though, the Men of Storybrooke is kind of cute, and does have the Hook & Emma scenes, and Neal and Emma scenes. Yet clearly whoever puts those things together isn’t in the loop. Its better than the ABCdotcomedy things.

Also – I stand by what I said earlier, I don’t think that Neal really expected Emma to know and/or try to find him. What was she going to do, follow a dove? Or did he expect August to give her a ride back to NY? The way they left things, it sounds like the ball was in his court. He may very well have wished that August would fill her in on some things, but he still started his relationship with Tamara immediately after August officially headed to SB so I’m inclined to think he wasn’t expecting Emma to try to find him – otherwise he’s worse than I thought and I was just starting to like him again. (Seriously if he expected her to show up in a few weeks/months, way to majorly sabotage it! Bad enough he didn’t go find her after the postcard but he got his wires crossed with August if he thought Emma was supposed to seek him out and on top of that, 2 minutes after hearing August say that he starts something with Tamara? And I thought Rumple had sabotage isssues!) So I go back to my original thinking in that Neal didn’t think Emma would forgive him and he chose not to pay attention to the post card. He may have thought about it / agonized over it for a bit, but I don’t think, based on what we know right now, that he really expected her to show up. If he did well…he would have been majorly surprised and would have had his fiancee right there and felt majorly stupid and guilty. Not that he didn’t this time around, but I realllly don’t think he expected to ever see her again, having made the choice to cut ties with FTL but be happy for her finding her parents etc.)

Neal wouldn’t have known that send you a postcard was just all August intended to do—maybe he thought it was a simplified way of saying August would let him know, so no, that’s silly to think Emma would follow the dove or whatever. Maybe that happens in the alternate universe of the world’s most awkward double date. Anyway, my point is that Neal might have thought that as August drives away, that maybe August will explain things to Emma, even though he did not specifically ask August to do that. Is it a stupid thing to expect a guy who begs you to do the RIGHT thing and leave your girlfriend, that breaks your heart in front of him to the point you are choked up, might have a heart, and years later at least try to explain what he [August] had a role in doing. Neal was pretty doom and gloom though, so more likely he didn’t expect August to do much. August doesn’t promise much, but he sure managed to deliver even less.

My HC wasn’t that Neal expected “ a few weeks or months”–but if on the day the curse broke, August had sat down and explained everything to Emma and said “Its your choice, here is Neal’s address, he is in NY”, then told Neal in a postcard “Emma knows, I told her to go find you if she can forgive you, good luck buddy”, it would have set up Neal to wait more. Instead, what happened is Neal watches August drive away, and then he gets this card with Broken on it. We don’t know how much time passed between these things, but at least a year I think. August arrived in SB after Emma had been there for awhile after her 28th birthday. Then we were speculating that Emma was in FTL on her 29th. So shortly after that is when Neal got the card, and I think it is after that he gets engaged to Tamara, not before. We don’t really know. We also don’t know when that relationship became a relationship as opposed to this girl he’d just met who keeps calling him up.

So I think again, what Neal could have reasonably thought is that August would explain it to Emma and that if Emma could forgive, that she would track him down fast. So close to a year goes by, with him wondering what happened and thinking every day that Emma might have broken the curse, and as he feared, doesn’t want to see him again. Then he gets the postcard so he at least knows for sure it is broken—but that is all August said. So why that and nothing else? So then Neal would feel for sure for sure all hope is gone, because if she could have forgiven him, she would have found him by then ( a week later let’s say) or August would have had more to say on the card. Then on the other side, he has Tamara pushing him hard and so he just goes with it.

On the whole, Phee’s explanation is probably better—just Neal was so convinced and at a low point, that he fell prey to Tamara, thinking it was fate. Yet what still stands is we do not know exactly what the timing was on Neal and Tamara, only that he met her and she got his number shortly before the time August appeared in SB. We also know that Neal was not expecting to see Emma in Manhattan, had no idea who Gold was etc.

There are a lot of missing details but it is true that Neal lost hope and tried to move on, regardless of how close it was to finding out about the curse being broken or not.

The shipper wars have turned EVERYTHING into shipping even when it’s not.

Yes, proof in point, my comment that some people get a little Grumpy—clearly, look around and you’ll see enough to know some people are not shippers at all and hate Neal/Hook/Hopper anything not to do with certain characters equally, and hate shipping to boot too!.

Maybe the CSers are just very devoted to combing over everything to grab every straw we can? It’s fun to have a safe place to go and as we’ve discussed at length, it’s very very scary everywhere else. I recently joined tumblr and am learning but apparently CS has been deemed “the cancer of the fandom” and asked not to tag Emma or OUAT in any of their posts (people seriously, just block the things that are also tagged CS) – I avoid the Colin tag a lot because there’s a lot of HQ in it. I don’t go and write on their stuff and tell them how awful it is though. I stay inside my little bubble and try not to think about the fact we’re being banished left and right.

I do think a lot of people migrated to tumblr—I haven’t yet as I don’t like the format much. I surf it a little now and again but it seemed to me that anytime you see something like “cancer of the fandom”–it is a PERSON not a group that voices it, and even if a few people agree—odds are, the same has happened the other direction too—or whatever direction, as SQ is way more represented on tumblr than here, and there’s still Woodenswan stuff and Gremma …so its quite different. I should see if there is actually TinySwan—haven’t checked lol.

(Really annoyed I forgot about Jen’s livetweet earlier, I wanted to ask about Emma’s relationship with Anton and what she thought of that. To me he’s like Emma’s Grumpy: I love Snow & Grumpy’s relationship and want to see more of Emma & Anton – see, not a shipper question, just a friend one that doesn’t even relate to my favorite male character! I adore him and his show didn’t get picked up so there’s always a chance he’ll be hanging with Team7 again )

See though I joke about TinySwan, I’m really not making it a shipper thing—I agree absolutely their friendship is awesome.

[quoteAnd with that I officially give up. Hiatus-fever is definitely getting the best of me and I don’t know what points I’ve argued into the ground or if I’ve agreed with the same thing a million times at this point. [/quote]
And a 1000 magical mice heave a sigh of relief. I absolutely agree its getting circular and reaching that point of bedrock on a lot off stuff, where its just matter of taste at this point. I don’t feel I’m “arguing” for something—just most of the time do not want to be misunderstood and my main motivation to particpate was to, as said above somewhere, help put out a view that could bridge your instinctive reactions to somethings to help you hate something less, to the extent you were feeling you did hate it. There’s no reason not to love your ship—regardless of how easily or far others see it or not.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

I forgot who it was, but someone pointed out a little boy Pan might make it look goofy for these adults to be fighting with him.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

An exciting t-word realization…..I’m afraid, very afraid. 😮 😆 😮

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

I have to agree Schmacky–Rumpel should have seen it coming.

@Phee wrote:

KFC, I know I’m already marrying another one of your posts, but I’ll be having torrid affairs on the side with this latest batch. 😉

Thanks lol I had such a hard time posting it due to computer errors (apparently, I was embedding quotes within quotes, but couldn’t find them….this is why I am not a computer programmer!) –so makes me happy to know at least one person read it and enjoyed some things in it.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

I agree with Angie and RG–there are flaws for many characters, and definitely, those that were abandoned have a tough journey to being able to accept that they will be loved and not left again. It’s not just Emma and Neal–many of the characters have a sad past. In fact, I think Charming may be the only one who had two loving parents and a relatively uncomplicated life, making him probably one of the most “issue free” halves of any of our pairs. The whole “pretend to be the dead twin brother you never knew for a nasty piece of work King” thing probably was a bit unnerving, but not traumatic.

Belle also doesn’t have obvious trauma–but there had to be something going on as we didn’t see her mother, and her father seemed rather heavy handed. She seemed eager to prove herself a hero.

@Phee wrote:

So I’ll bet she was the most sweet, lovely, understanding, attentive, loved up girlfriend a boy could ever hope for, to ensure that he couldn’t let her go. From the instant they met she was playing up being vulnerable by being all clutsy and spilling her drink.

😆 😯 😆 She may not have been using something magic-sciency on Neal, like love potion # 9 or the Siren’s illusions, but she definitely got his number (figuratively and literally) pretty quick. Girl knew how to play it.

@Phee wrote:

(For the record, I’m one of those types who doesn’t believe that coincidence is actually random coincidence, I believe it’s some force out there conspiring to show us things we need to see, sort of how our subconscious forces us to address things by bringing them up in dreams. The meaning isn’t always obvious, but these coincidental things in life happen for a reason.)

I just started watching Lost, and there’s a couple of lines in there about not mistaking fate for coincidence and vice versa. I keep that in mind, since there are things the writers intend (as they get to play “fate” as they write the story) but there are things they subconsciously do or that are inadvertently the same (the coincidences, that don’t mean anything).

Until she went and shot him and stuff.

See, Emma thought she and Neal had the worst break up ever, then she saw that, and said, well, guess jail and 12 years of no contact wasn’t so bad in the grand scheme. 😆 😉 I kid, I kid. Both really, really had to hurt a lot, and at least Neal had the comfort of knowing that he deep down he didn’t really want Tamara, he just hadn’t wanted to hurt her.
I agree with what you say Phee, that it was a weight lifted in some ways for Tamara to reveal it had all been a lie.

To keep this from being too much about SF–what about the other breakups?
What was worse, Cora ripping her heart out or Milah pretending pirates had killed/raped/carried her off?

I think the Milah thing was probably the worst. They were married, and he had no closure, he had to tell their kid their mother died, and she didn’t have any reason for putting him through that pain that was better than “I fell in twu wuv”. Tamara believed in a cause (even if we think she’s nutters) and Neal wanted to get Emma home and break the curse (even if Emma didn’t know and it shattered her what he did). Rumpel got closure with Cora at least–pretty tough stuff, but it was over and no wondering of why.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

😆 Phee so true that!

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

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