[kfchimera]

@Phee wrote:

I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that what he actually means is, “their persona that is capable of kicking the most butt”…

^This. 😀

This may not be funny if you have never played one of those RPG games, like final fantasy or one of the MMO style ones–but I had this image of EQ & Rump are dark magic users, Hook is the thief, Charming is the warrior tank,Snow is the archer/range fighter & Emma is a hybrid white magic healer-fighter paladin. I may be unfairly putting my own geeky experience on that of the writers, but it is an oddly common set up of RPG archetypes.

Slurpeez, that is a good point–we need to see how far the curse went. We have discussed if it hit only FTL and then selectively grabbed those on EQ’s peeved at list. Yet it is interesting that EQ felt she had to kill her mother rather than write the curse to exclude her. I still want to know the scope of the curse!

[kfchimera]

Part IV of response to MysteryKat’s post…

I’m really really hopeful that we see him fighting really hard to come after her and get back to his family and that it makes me want to root for him with her more. I like the character and have hope for him, my issues truly just stem around his relationship with Emma. The only time I’ve ever felt like he actually fought for her was when he went back to the apartment and interrupted Rumple. He did have a sword and fight side by side with her in Gold’s shop, but he jumped out of the way and Charming jumped in front of Emma when a fireball was thrown her way.

He was getting out of the way of Charming’s sword. The fact that Charming gets to have a heroic moment before being thrown out of the fight entirely is probably more what that moment meant, than hey, look Neal is cowardly! Neal stands by Emma and keeps fighting even when Charming and Snow are gone, so I don’t think there’s much to this “he jumped out of the way” argument. Neal hasn’t been in a FTL standoff in decades. He probably hasn’t even been practicing with a sword—so I think it took way more guts than Charming’s willingness to stand there and fight as Charming and Emma at least were more prepared for that sort of thing.

I’m not sure how many obstacles they can endure when everything so far was mostly against the things that Emma seems to need in her life as it stands today (her needs were very different as a teenager). Their relationship in the past was sweet, but I feel like they’re different people now and the Emma that we’ve gotten to know over the last couple of seasons isn’t the same girl she was when she was with Neal.

I agree with this. They’ve both grown and need to know who they are as people—and they of course now both have Henry to think about.

At times I feel like Emma would be reverting when she’s so awesome as the person she is now. When Emma thought about running away from all the craziness in SB, MM said the following in 1×21: “And running is what’s best for him [Henry]? Or is that what’s best for you? You’re reverting, Emma, into the person you were before you got here; and I thought you’d changed.” Which to me says “I thought you were better than that and you’re just becoming the person you were before” and that’s basically how I feel *currently* going back to Neal without much fuss would come across. It’s a sweet story if they can find their way back, I just need it to be realistic. The real world is not a fairy tale and Emma spent 99% of her life in the real world. Her life is not as cut & dried as some of the others are.

Yet, it is a story taking place not entirely IN the real world, with many fantasy based problems causing all of the issues. Tamara wasn’t an ordinary woman with ordinary aims—it was a huge con that she was with Neal! So this point of view ignores the extraordinary things happening in the story.

They also seem to me to want different things other than to be in Henry’s life and I really do believe that they are different people now and need to learn to co-exist for Henry’s sake.

I agree with the point about being different people—as said above. I don’t agree about Emma pinning all that Tamara did on Neal. She knows he had no idea that Tamara was evil. He was played, they all were played by both Tamara and Greg, and none of them saw it coming, until Emma suspected Tamara. Emma totally dropped the ball on Greg.

They have an uphill climb but it’s certainly not impossible.

I agree, co-parenting is still on the table, and they don’t need to be together to both be in Henry’s lives.

I have faith in the writers that with more screentime, the more we know the better I’ll like them. They’ve set up a great triangle and I see compelling arguments for both sides and it should be interesting to watch it play out.

I’m not sure they have exactly set up a triangle. I agree it is possible they could—but the thing with Tallahasse is, it was deceptive. They showed that in that episode that Emma and Hook had a connection—but we didn’t realize when we saw it that they literally had a connection in Neal. She did not fall in love with him on the beanstalk (listen to the Tallahasee official podcast). Is he possibly attracted to her? Yes, I think so, but he is a pirate, and he has said some things that indicates that he’s more than willing to have relationships that are not true love and are just physical. Hook also says to Regina he felt they had a real connection before she backstabbed him—so I’m just not sure what is intentional foreshadowing and what was serving a moment in that plot. That said, they are aware of fan sentiments about CS, and apparently, the LOST writers redid one relationship based on fan response. They certainly have not ruled out CS, and the actors have talked about the connection and attraction. I just did not see much follow up in the story after Tallahassee.

I’d like to think that at the end, we’ll all be able to root for Emma’s true love story because it will be epic and beautiful and shown to us enough that it’s obvious and none of these lingering issues remain and I think that will be the case. I truly do see the appeal of both sides, I just have a preference that is somewhat unpopular around here.

Yes, and it is with respect that I take the time to answer your post and read every single word, and try to answer as best I can rather then dismiss what you are saying. It just is really long so I may have lost a few things.

You have seen some things in the scenes and interviews that puts CS in a different category than other spec ships, and as I said, some of these things I agree and see too as possibilities. I do see a story that could form between Hook and Emma that is far more than eye candy, more about redemption through Love. I see how Hook’s dedication to Milah makes it likely he would be loyal and dedicated to his next love (and don’t believe he couldn’t ever love again), which Emma deserves. He can be brave, and he is resourceful. Emma could provide the moral conscience he kind of lacks, and a home and purpose. I even think he would be good with Henry. What I’m not sure about though, is Neal. I’d be more open to CS if SF happens first, and its written really believably that they can’t work it out without Hook being an issue at all until after SF is clearly over—but right now, I’m rooting for them to work it out. As I said, before Neal and Emma admitted anything, when he was with Tamara, I felt she was “free” to be with Hook but the ILYs sort of changed things for me, even though it wasn’t future intention ILYs.

The Snowing/Abigail triangle was obvious, the MAP triangle *should* be obvious as a TLK woke Aurora up etc.

We don’t know, but as I said, there are a lot of people who totally miss that Hook is an option for Emma, because after Tallahassee, there wasn’t a lot of pairing of the two. So it seemed like that quote from long ago, “fun in Vegas” where Vegas = Beanstalk. It was a moment that passed, and the purpose it served was to distract you during the episode into thinking that Emma was falling for him and that he would betray her. I was saying “No Emma, don’t fall for it!” and then she didn’t trust him, but the twist was–he was being sincere! So it takes a lot of explanation of his motivations and actions too, to understand that there could be something romantic between them given that he aligned himself with Cora and has generally been out for himself. The reason isn’t “Neal is alive!” it is that they still love each other and always have but other things have come between them, like the curse and this PP/HO thing.

Emma’s is the one love story that we can see play out and not officially know who it will be because we haven’t grown up knowing her story.

I agree with this. That there is a good deal of interpretation required to see some of the aspects of both ships does not make anyone delusional.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

David screwed up but got his Charming memories back right before leaving town.

When the curse broke and Snow and David were standing together, so it wasn’t really a matter of choice to say Snow would never forgive him—they started kissing right away, didn’t they? Yes, Emma has seen her parents story play out, and it may play out in influencing her somewhat—but at the same time, she’s not a little girl, she’s a grown woman. They may be her parents, but her personality, her wants, her needs are her own. True love is different for everyone in some ways, because people are different. Yes, Emma says the choice is important—but up until the portal she was adamant she was not a choice he could have. So I think we have to wait and see how the rest of it is written. You can’t stop the story in the middle and compare it to a story that finished that romance arc with the wedding.

She’s had her moments of weakness and almost leaving (just like Charming and Hook and Neal) but the difference is that Charming got to the edge of town and Emma got to the edge of town and Hook had his ship almost out of sight but they all came back and fought for Snow and Henry and Hook came back to help save a town full of people who hated and betrayed him (on behalf of Emma and Bae). Neal knew when he could come back and fight for it when Emma would have her family back and everything would be alright and he chose not to – that is a stark difference for me.

Hook only had to “come back” because he helped make the mess that put those lives in danger, and ran away with their only way out in the first place. THAT is a stark difference to me. I give him loads of credit for turning around. I even agree Emma’s words affected him. The thing is, it was too late by the time he did it. If Henry had not been kidnapped, then his turning around wouldn’t have even helped anyone. As I said, it wasn’t clear to me that Neal “knew” when he could come back and fight to be with Emma—since it wasn’t a question of fighting but respecting her wishes if she really did not want to have anything to do with him. I keep going back to Charming in What Happened to Frederick—“You can’t fight for what doesn’t exist.” Love is a two way street. Both sides have to want it, have to fight for it, and absent magic to bolster your own doubts and fears—it’s a little tougher in the real world to be sure.

Charming had no problem waiting 28 years, Hook’s been waiting centuries to avenge the woman he loved and was fine with waiting the 28 years in that dome thing Cora put up, and Neal had to wait what, 12? and chose not to try to make it work.

Time in those 28 years, as well as in NL isn’t the same as in the real world. Cora said time would be frozen there by the way. Yes, that means he lost faith, but as I said above—it happened to other couples too.

Emma’s been fighting for family her whole life and has finally found it and will now fight for them no matter what.

He didn’t know she went looking for him. Emma hasn’t fought for her family her whole life! She even choked when August tried to get her to believe—she said she didn’t ask for it, any of it. She didn’t want to be the savior. She wanted to find her family, she wondered yes—but we don’t see her searching or anything. I realize you want to tie Emma’s personality to that quote of Hook’s that you have to fight for what you want. Yet this quote of his doesn’t really fit what Emma has been about “her whole life”. She’s been about looking out for herself, then with Neal looking out for each other, then after that, not trusting people. She wasn’t receptive when Henry came to find her. She didn’t fight for him at first, until she realized something was off about Regina. Then yes, she dug in a little—but it wasn’t so easy, and part of it I think was just sheer stubbornness. Also remember, she planned to leave, and Henry had left something in the car so she turned back, then her car crashed. Then she tried to leave again at the end of season 1 when she realized the fight itself was causing harm to Henry. Sometimes, fighting isn’t a good idea—but then the turnover happened and she believed, and the curse broke.

Emma fought tooth and nail for Henry to save him.

See above paragraph. Emma is tough, but she has at times expressed doubt and wanted to quit various things—perhaps tied into her moving around so much too. I think she does understand those who feel forced to walk away—since she had to do it too and she has now seen what caused Snow and Charming to leave her. She also knows that some fights are too stacked to win or that too many people get hurt if you keep fighting.

In fact I think it hurts her more because one of the things that really tied her with Neal is the fact that they were both abandoned and wanted to save each other from being alone. To have someone who knows what it feels like do that to her was excruciating and the last straw before her walls went up. It seemed, (from the brief highlight reel that we got in Tallahassee) that she opened up to him fairly quickly and I’m sure that common bond was a huge part of it. That would have been a huge slap in the face, regardless of the reasons, but the reasons would have helped.

Exactly why Neal found it hard to imagine she would forgive him!

That quote to MM from back in S1 about wanting something vs choosing to do something about it speaks volumes to me about Emma’s character which is why I have trouble believing she’d be so OK with this so quickly *at this point.*

See above—those words of “I love you” were ripped out of her thinking she’d never get another chance. Yet they did have offscreen conversations, that perhaps were not dramatic enough or because of other plots and pacing were not shown to us. We have to infer, and when we do that, of course we all infer different things.

My point about being 2nd choice is that I agree on Neal’s side that Emma was his first choice, but he gave up on that first choice, moved on to choice #2 and choice #2 is what Emma is seeing in front of her.

She breaks into his room, and he’s like, ok fine, look. He goes with her to the beach even—he’s giving her leeway. If he were really fighting hard for Tamara, he’d have told her to get the obscenity out of his room and come back only with a warrant. Well, pointless in SB but we know Emma’s original plan wasn’t even to bring any of this up to Neal until she HAD proof. She didn’t intend for him to believe her just on her ability alone, no matter how much she may pride herself on it. I disagree that he was ignoring everything he knew of her, but as others have discussed, he didn’t want to believe what she was saying was true, it didn’t make logical sense, it didn’t make emotional sense to him. Again, this was not about “choosing” between the two of them, as Emma unlike MM and David was not trying to be in a relationship with Neal! She was doing the exact opposite, at every turn, she told him she was over him, told him he didn’t matter, didn’t care he was dating someone. So it was not put to him as a stark choice A or B, who do you believe, me or her? He was looking for other explanations for the things that Emma felt were wrong. Part of her reason for suspicion was the list, and of course, Neal had helped Tamara to write it, but by then, she’d already broken in to look for more evidence.

I realize there wasn’t a lot of time between finding out that Tamara was up to no good and the ILYs since the two events happened back to back thanks to the portal. I do however feel that it rushed everything and there wasn’t a lot of build up to that moment. There was obvious jealousy along the way, but as much as Emma waits til the last second to declare feelings, it still seemed VERY rushed to me for SF given that it was immediately after Neal’s relationship with Tamara ended (and very badly and not by Neal’s choice).

Yes, it was rushed. That is why I feel it was not speaking to intentions for the future or a complete acknowledgement that all was forgiven –and I think I’ve read enough SF posts to say in general people were surprised too.

I didn’t see that coming and felt a lack of build up to make that moment really payoff and seem legitimate for the people they are today and not just the idea of what they once were. If anything it felt more like closure than the start of something, especially since they both basically acknowledged the idea he was about to die. It felt like they were finally BOTH admitting that they felt something for each other once and this was their goodbye, without having to address any of the issues along the way because they did genuinely have feelings and it was nice to finally hear him say that he felt that way too.

There were clues that each still had feelings. She remembers that he hates mayo and points it out to Tamara! There’s all the people thinking they still have torches for each other. There’s the dreamcatcher in his room, and the fact she kept the bug and keychain (though those are ties to Henry, and the betrayal too, so we can discount them a little). There’s other little things too, like the way she seeks out his opinion on going “home” to FTL. Yet I do agree, the ILYs were not an expression of future intention to be together and did come rather fast.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

(Part II)Again, cutting off the paragraphs I’d want to quote to first sentence to cut length.

In not going after her because he was afraid, he didn’t take into account her feelings and wonder how much damage he had done to her.

Yes, they could have had closure, or it could have gone like his reunion with his father—just anger and more mess, because there’s nothing to say. Again, if Neal thought August would prep Emma on the backstory, it really puts what he did in a slightly different light. If Emma already knew why he left her, why seek her out for closure? The ball would have been in her court more or less. Maybe Neal should have trusted Pinnochio of all people less,and taken more responsibility to contact Emma, but again, Neal is hurt and damaged too.

The fact that it took her finding him I think is what bugs her the most.

He had centuries if he believed what Hook said about Milah—and I’m not sure Bae did believe Hook, or as I said earlier, that Neal believes the abandoned want to be found. At least he had a “good” reason, in that he was trying to help Emma, not to be selfish, but he wasn’t sure if she would understand that. I think that it took her finding him isn’t what bugs HER the most—it is what bugs you as a viewer the most. She went to Tallahassee for 2 years. She presumably went there to find him (on the official podcast, A&E say its probably safe to assume that). So I’m not sure she felt he had to come find her, and he may have expected her to get the story from August, and find him if she wanted to see him. When he finally confesses he wanted to look, but was afraid—she doesn’t say anything but that she is sorry too. She doesn’t say to him “I waited for you. What hurt the most wasn’t that you left, its that you never came back to at least tell me why.” This is of course, one of those things people can see differently—so there’s no wrong or right way to look at it unless we get more scenes.

Which is what brings me back to the conversation in Manhattan where he did tell her what happened with Pinocchio but still wanted her to go and quickly so that Rumple wouldn’t find him.

He seemed in such a hurry to get rid of her that he insisted they go sit down and he ordered beers? She was the one who rushed through that conversation. She is the one that says why he did stuff doesn’t matter as she is over it and him, and to come on as she has a deal to bring him to Rumpel.

I suppose at this point he had already made up his mind about not going to find her and had chosen to move on and I commend him for sticking to that even though Tamara is EVIL, but he didn’t even confirm that he loved her too back then but just felt that it was the right thing to do, even when she told him how much it hurt because she loved him so much (and she was so obviously hurt and pouring out her heart about her feelings from back then and he never backed that up).

A guy who isn’t smooth with expressing emotions? The horrors! You have just pointed out the very thing that gets Cosomo to have a column dedicated to what guys really mean when they say stuff.
They both said I love you in the past, and he told her he was not conning her. Yes it would have been nice if he said I loved you too outright—but the problem is I think he did not want to say it in the past tense and was not free to admit he still did love her in the present tense either.

Again, I do appreciate that he was in a bad place and didn’t think he had a shot but it’s that lack of faith in them as a couple that is so infuriating to me.

If you go and look at the other couples, you will notice that if you stopped the story in the middle, these couples show lack of faith at times too, until things change and something inspires them to go find the other. Belle meets Grumpy and Mulan, and decides to go fight for Rumpel. Snow drinks a potion to forget Charming—and he has a tough time getting her back. Charming decides to help Abigail and Fredrick or die trying in the Siren’s lake, because he lost hope. So just because Neal and Emma are not playing their story out in one season, does it mean he’s taking too long to show faith? I don’t think so. I think its just that the writers want to drag this out longer.

Emma has a hard time letting anyone in because she’s been abandoned and it took her a long time with Snowing but she got there so there’s definitely hope.

There’s sacrifice in her parents story too—and she has seen Neal’s willingness to put his life on the line for her at the portal, as well as to give up his own happiness for her. So while I see what you’re saying about wanting someone to fight for her—it’s not like Neal has done the opposite at all. He faced his father for her. He grabbed her, while shot, to prevent her falling in the portal. Now that he knows she does still love him, now he can begin to fight to be with her.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Again, was working on a long response offline and now there are other posts in between that sort of address what I’d typed out–but took me so long posting anyway even though it doesn’t take into account Phee, then MysteryKat’s then Rg’s lastest posts above. Due to length, I will only put the first part of the paragraphs from MysteryKat’s post, to which I am responding, and break it into two parts.

@MysteryKat wrote:

We are all Oncers and want our favorite characters to be happy! We just have different ideas of how to get them to that point, that’s all.

I agree 100%. We also have different ideas of what makes a good story, along the way to that ending.
I think there would be too much pain for Neal to see Hook and Emma together as the JR pulls up compared to how much pain I think Hook would feel if say, the JR pulls up and Neal is waving on the shore and Neal and Emma do the cheesy lovers reunited running down the beach thing. I fully expect that what the writers have in store may change what I see between Hook and Emma and how Neal might react. He’s accepted the possibility before, that he and Emma would co-parent, so its on the table and doesn’t necessarily have to be written as sad.
@MysteryKat wrote:

It doesn’t mean that any of us think couples we have seen on the show are not legitimate.

My two category approach really left out the obvious differences between the things I’d list as “speculative” and “full on confirmed by a curse break”.
@MysteryKat wrote:

I haven’t gotten to do my season rewatch yet and I’m hoping with all of these things in mind that I will see more of the positive stuff everyone seems to be enjoying about …

We are all limited by our own imaginations and that is where we can, if we can discuss politely as we are doing here, get the benefit of a different point of view.

“MysteryKat” wrote:

I am happy to hear that some are at least a little more open to Hook now …

See I’m not on the Hate the Goat boat and definitely do not hate Hook. I do think we have too many characters to keep GOAT around, and Greg lost me after the torture, but twists and turns await. I’ll keep my mind open. I’m trying to do that for Hook—and I do see he had huge character growth in the finale. I expected we’d see him do some big gesture putting his revenge aside, and he did.

”MysteryKat” wrote:

The only question I have about that declaration between them is how much of it is real and how much of it is the idea of it based on what it used to be.

It is a fair thing to wonder about. They have both changed a lot (what was up with that 3 pc suit of his in the open!?). I also agree that love has many meanings. They didn’t expect he would live—so it was not renewing their relationship and picking up where they left off.

“MysteryKat” wrote:

Regardless of his reasons or lack of confidence, he didn’t choose to go after Emma and he didn’t say he loved her until after Tamara was an option so I feel like from EMMA’s point of view after that, he chose Tamara over her – against his real feelings but in that case the situation was bad for all three of them.

Emma’s view and Neal’s view are likely to be different, that is true. The question is, how much does it matter to Emma? We’ve seen her say to MM that all you can do is ask that he choose you—but how long do you wait for that choice? Would she understand that Neal didn’t see her (Emma) as an option? I’m not sure how they work all that out. MM and David never resolved that, as the curse lifted. So we never really got Emma’s reactions to the sad fallout at the end of Season 1 over David’s reluctance to be truly honest with Katherine.

I get why he did it and that there are definitely a lot of emotions involved in all of it. I guess I’m mostly disappointed because he learned from Rumple’s mistakes but not Milah’s. He wants to be a better father to Henry because his wasn’t good, but he knew centuries ago that Milah regretted leaving him and never did anything about it. The fact that he did that to someone and chose not to do anything about it when he knows exactly how much it hurts grates me. He had the option, he was reminded of the option, and he chose to walk away.

I see it differently. What hurt Bae was that they left—not that they didn’t come back. He didn’t ask them to come back, he wasn’t waiting for them to come, and with Rumpel, he was avoiding him because he had too much anger to ever want to speak to him again. He thought Milah was dead until Hook told him, so that was more complicated. I’ll have to rewatch that scene, but I took out of it that Bae was more angry that Hook lied to him and “stole” his mother and wanted to kill his father, than he was hurt that Milah had never come back for him. Here on the forums, we the audience get pretty upset at her, but I’m not sure Bae was feeling additional pain that she had apparently had the option to come get him and chosen not to do it. When Gold and Henry talk, Henry thinks all that matters is that the person who left you returns to you—but that is NOT how Neal feels about it, and Gold suspected as much. All that mattered to Neal was that he had been abandoned and betrayed—and as he was not willing to forgive, he really did not believe Emma would either.
I’m basing most of that on what Neal says to August that he doesn’t think Emma would want to see him. He tells Emma he was afraid she could never forgive him. Those lines are much more consistent with thinking he didn’t have a real choice to find her. That then, leads to a good question here—why was he the one who had to find her, rather than the other way around? August KNEW why Neal left, and Neal probably thought that August talked to Emma, and at some point, revealed the whole thing to Emma, and that Emma chose not to come find him. He asked for the postcard, sure, but there was nothing but “broken” on it.
August was completely wooden, and too ashamed to go to Emma once she believed and reveal the past, that he had stolen the money, that Neal had made him promise to stay with Emma and he broke the promise, that he was the one who talked Neal into leaving her and why. That Neal really didn’t want his father to find him—all of which would probably make more sense that Emma would have to leave SB to find Neal, than Neal come there to find her. It would have helped Neal tremendously if that postcard had said something like “Broken, told Emma why you left, Emma believes and wants to see you.” August wasn’t much of a friend to either of them. Neal may have thought Emma knew the whole story and was still done with him.
So there’s that moment of hope on his face when he sees her in Manhattan, then it crashes down when he realizes—she doesn’t know! It’s interesting to see their conversation again, with the knowledge that August has not talked to either of them since the curse broke. He is confused why she tackled him on the street. He doesn’t know who Gold is. He’s angry she brought his father, as if he expected her to understand he has issues with Rumpel. He’s trying to process all of that, in the bar scene, and at the same time, Emma keeps making it clear she did not seek him out to renew their relationship. So he has to explain why he left, see the pain and hurt on her face, knowing there’s nothing he can do or say to get her to forgive. He finally gives her that choice—lie to my father, and never see me again. She takes that deal and seals in his mind that they are done. So after that point, he still wants to protect her, but he is not free then to be with her because of Tamara. From there, I agree with what Phee said. He can’t break Tamara’s heart unless he knows there’s a chance for him with Emma.
I’m still puzzling through what Neal knew, what August knew, and how much of what they knew was actually true, and when they knew it. The timeline of the curse being broken, versus when Neal got into a romantic serious relationship with Tamara. Was the serious part after he thought the curse was broken but Emma did not come find him? Remember, the curse breaks and several weeks go by while Snow and Emma are trapped in FTL. So we don’t know what Neal was doing in that period—perhaps he got the postcard and waited, and then just before Manhattan, he and Tamara get engaged. Tamara is the one who says how they met (and lies doing it—she was not late for work!), and sums it up that she called him to return his scarf, and then they were together ever since. Worst case, though, it is as Phee said—Neal took the easy path, because he was a damaged, hurt and hopeless guy.
So I agree, from Emma’s perspective, Neal didn’t work to win her love, but by the same token, that’s the thing about love, it is not one person’s fight, but both. He left her, but it cost him dearly to do it too, and he did it for her. So I’m not entirely sure who “had” to find the other in that situation, given that Neal was duped by August in some ways.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

I also don’t really want too soapy a triangle, where characters ping pong and its dragged out forever. Only good thing about Katherine/MM/David and Neal/Tamara/Greg was that the false relationship was revealed fairly fast. For Neal/Emma of course, that didn’t mean they exactly picked up where they left off, so I see where there’s room for some to hope for her and another suitor, like Hook. I just don’t like those everyone hurts storylines, where the hero/heroine is kind of fickle and can’t make up his/her mind for years.

So here is my question–where HAVE they confirmed they intend to do a triangle? Or is that another thing that someone interpreted that was not actually said or confirmed either? They never seem to confirm anything other than simple facts, and I thought they walk the fine line of avoiding promising a romantic relationship between Emma and whoever, but didn’t rule anything out. So would they confirm a triangle ? That itself seems inconsistent with “don’t want to spoil”.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

There are all kinds of relationships between major and minor characters, and those are of all stages of development.
So I would divide it into:

Speculative Romantic Relationships (things we haven’t seen in the show but fans would like to see) and

Confirmed Romantic Relationships of Major or Minor Characters That are Curse Breakingly True
Snowing, Rumbelle, SleepingPhil …zzz, sorry, (yawn)….Lost my train of thought. Anyway, of those, I prefer Snowing as they are at a “mature” state of their relationship–the day to day life together in a committed relationship with daily woes like, how to sneak in some “us” time before the family gets in. Tacos anyone? Yet it still has the fancifulness of fairy tale romance to make it sweeter than the average depiction on say, a comedy show. I feel like Rumbelle still has a few things to work through. SleepingPhil….I’m too tired to talk about them.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

I love that they love the speculating fans. Go us!

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Thank you WickedRegal–Your perspective is interesting, even though I disagree with some things, to me that is the the value of forums like these. Out on twitter, out on tumblr, there’s just a bunch of people each stating opinions but no chance to really fully discuss why. This leads to people settling into camps, thinking there is a “war” between groups when really there is not. More on that in a moment.

@Josephine wrote:

One of the first things you learn in any psychology class is that the biggest predictor of future behavior is past behavior. .

Josephine brings up psychology, but though it has been years since I studied it, it prompted me to remember something. Social psychology also tells us, that people can do bad things in certain circumstances, but absent those circumstances, they no longer have the frame of mind to make that same choice and may even be horrified that they did. (Milgrim experiments , used as an explanation for how soldiers can do certain things in war). I think this may apply to Greg and Tamara on some level, as well as to Regina’s soldiers, perhaps also, Regina’s reactions in some situations set up by Cora and Rumpel.

Perhaps it also applies to fan groups in discussing the characters. My favorite branch of psychology, was cognitive psychology and thinking and decisions. There are a good many concepts that I hazily remember that apply to fandom, “group think” and “ad hoc groups”, hostility to those perceived as being outside even hastily formed groups–all of these come into play. We should just remember that each of us are individuals just stating (and hopefully being polite about it) our opinions, so instead of having to shut down any discussion where there are likely to be very different opinions, we can have a good discussion.

Marty just wanted to talk about this subject because it seemed interesting–not to set up a war between the fans of one character than the other. I think we all just responded with our thoughts, none of us truly speaking on behalf of any fan group, for the purpose of antagonizing another fan group. I really love hearing the different sides of things on these forums. I already know what I think. I come here to see what everyone else thinks, and yes, to express what I think. Some people really do not like any disagreement–but not all disagreement needs to be unpleasant or put down to the work of trolling to create animosity. The only thing is, there was a similar thread, but I know some people don’t like the longer threads, and they also do get lost time to time, so yes, we will repeat our discussions sometimes. Sometimes, too, there are new things to add as new episodes go by and new elements of the story are revealed–so some things will come up even if it seem “settled” by some fans. There’s always new people who want to express and discuss too, and may have missed a previous conversation.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

I’m struggling to get some rest too, and my doctor suggested the rice cereal for my baby (5mos) and also putting him on a feeding schedule during the day. In the meantime, I have read a lot of sleep books, but there’s not a magic bullet out there, some kids are tougher than others. We have found room darkening shades work, and white noise cd and staggering our sleep times between me and hubby. That might be tough for you if both you and your husband have to get up equally early–but maybe one of you could sleep before the baby does and take turns getting up to rock/soothe.
The white noise cd is from the Happiest baby on the block series–good series, he has a lot of tips that seem to work. We’re still struggling though (but I’m nursing exclusively, so just starting to wean off nighttime feeding right now, and break the nurse-him-to-sleep while I surf the forums habit 😆 )

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

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