[kfchimera]

I agree with that Demi. Though I had the impression this series only starts, but is not generally taking place, in Storebrooke.

[kfchimera]

That is true–I would love to see Seb. I think Grumpy being a recurring character would mean he would not be lost to OUAT for a 1 time appearance in the pilot or something.

The other “mad” character is the March Hare.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Yeah wetpaint is kind of a supermarket tabloid of online entertainment news.

My thought was angry=grumpy. Lee was more likely available for low budget shooting of a speculative spin off.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Welcome back Sarah! The most significant thing is probably Adam’s tweet in response to a question about a Hook-Emma-Neal triangle that it would be more like a rhombus. I don’t know how to embed tweets, but it’s been posted somewhere. I’m not sure if there’s been anything new since then, and with it being hiatus–it may be quiet for a bit unfortunately unless there’s another stray tweet.

@Surayya wrote:

I tend to take almost everything with a grain of salt when it comes to interpretations (as a couple of times, even in this thread, I haven’t totally agreed with certain hard core statements & I’ve even made some myself in the heat of the moment),

It’s a shipping thread–fair enough.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Now that I’ve read Obigirl’s analysis on Fighting for Love, I still am puzzling about the test–failed or not? Neal honestly believed he had no shot with Emma, THAT is why he moved on. That is why he did not seek her out. Like Charming, willing to risk DYING to reunite Katherine with her love, he’s thinking “I can’t fight for what doesn’t exist.” Unlike Charming though, he’s struggling with Tamara-Siren and along comes Emma and QuackAttack Body Slams her. So we don’t get that proof positive that he would have figured it out, would have found that certainty of true love without Emma intervening. Emma’s magic also did not save or heal him–so those were choices the writers made that leave a very open door for CS.

So as I said, fighting isn’t the only theme I saw. I also saw sacrificing for love. I’ll explain this and combine it with a response to something Suraya said.

@Surayya wrote:

However that hate/bashing doesn’t drive me deeper into CS- I let my own interpretation of the story/show do that & nothing else.

What I meant was, when I see one sided things like that poster a few pages back implying Hook is the only one who’s “come back” for Emma, it just triggers me to start thinking of all the things that are misleading about this statement as well as other statements that are too one-sided. Leaving aside Hook’s motivations and the bits on August and Neal–how could anyone fault Snowing for putting Baby Emma in the wardrobe when the choice was do that or let her be killed by the Queen’s men? Their original plan was for Snow to go with Emma. We aren’t supposed to infer lack of love for Emma by their actions–we are supposed to infer they loved her very much and had a very hard choice to make. Season 1 hammers this home a lot–sometimes people who love you have to leave you to give you your best shot at a better life. It isn’t that they didn’t fight hard enough for you–but some fights are too stacked to win (without some miracle plot armor or something).

Whatever pain Emma faced as an abandoned child in horrible foster systems, it is something she works through over the course of Season 2. It’s not an instant forgiveness and trust, but it is something that takes time to build, but Emma understands intellectually their sacrifice long before she does so emotionally. Snow didn’t “come back” for Emma–but she was willing to sacrifice being with Charming for her (though the plan fell through), and did sacrifice that when she came after Emma when she jumped into a portal when Emma was falling through. So in my mind, while I might sometimes find Snow to be a bit dramatic/sanctimonious, there ought to be no doubt that Emma loves them and they love her at the end of the finale. Emma isn’t that abandoned loner anymore, just waiting for someone to choose her, to fight for her. She knows her parents would die for her.

So when someone tries to imply Hook is the only one in Emma’s life who has fought for her, it sort of undermines the huge sacrifices Snowing were willing and did make for Emma. Fighting for love is not the only way to show true love. Sacrifice counts too in this story. Sacrifice, like Henry eating the apple he knew was poisoned to prevent Emma from doing so and to prove to her, that what he said was true. You could, if you wanted, rail on Henry for putting Emma through such a scare when he could have just tossed the turnover out. If he had though, he wouldn’t have had the hero moment, and Emma might not have ever believed enough to break the curse. Henry didn’t eat the turnover TO scare her to make her sad or out of a death wish of his own, but to convince her and save her.

Now when it comes to Hook–he has sacrificed his chance of revenge in order to find Henry without any hesitation. That to me is much more touching than this “he came back!” after he ran away in the first place by stealing what he thought was everyone’s only hope of survival. It is huge character growth for Hook.

What would it say about Hook if he were unwilling to make a sacrifice like Snowing? It’s one thing to say the romantic hero won’t have to make the sacrifice, that the plot will resolve before the price is paid, but he has to be shown as unselfishness enough to be willing to pay it. Preferably without some huge scaring cost to Emma of course, that to me is the biggest hurdle for what Neal did. Snowing pretty clearly were out of options, but the plot does not make it quite as clear that the same was true for Neal.

@MysteryKat25 wrote:

KFChimera thank you for your posts. I know I’ve been extremely guilty of ranting more about the anti-SF things as of late than pouring over the same details for CS because I needed to get it out to people who understand what I’m feeling (aka, the CS people in the CS thread).

That’s perfectly understandable–having a safe place to feel like you can just post your opinion without having to worry about defending every word choice /comparison, being able to preach to the choir as it were, is of course the positive point of shipper threads. No, it can’t always be just pro-this, as in order to explain fully how you feel, sometimes you do need to just rant/vent and point out all the flaws you kept to yourself at other times. I do understand that–but of course what I was saying is that sometimes that leads to the impression that you HAVE to preach identically or you should keep quiet or you are “raining on people’s parades” even if all you are trying to do is say no, I can’t quite agree with you on this piece here, but I do here. It starts to feel very “you’re either with us on every point, or you’re against us.” Which given the shipper wars posts seems rather contradictory to what I would think would be the attitude people would want to promote. I absolutely agree, it is far worse to have people actively ripping you personally as a poster to shreds, calling names etc. Yes, it can be aggravating to be in the minority and feel like your voice is lost.

@Mysterykat wrote:

KFChimera – I’ll agree to a degree on your point about the testing of characters. I’m sure SF people will say that Neal’s test is ongoing but not all CS people are so narrowed in on Hook that we all think Neal has “failed” already – I’ve said many times in many places that he’s got a LONG way to go for me. Is it impossible? No. Do I think people are too quick to sweep the issues with him under the rug and forget about them and want Emma to just get over them super fast too? Yes.

I agree with that, too. Of course not everyone has the exact same opinion on every point! It just gets back to how sometimes it can feel like there’s a consensus to something when its really only one or two posters actually saying similar things and maybe there’s many more who haven’t logged in or read it, or the thread shoots past so no one else ever responds. Live chat of course, well even rudeness aside, it wouldn’t be my thing –too fast not enough time to reflect and think.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

@obisgirl wrote:

I’ve ‘shipped couples for a long time, and usually, there are pretty valid reasons to root for one ‘ship over the other. But to ship Hook with Regina just so make your OTP possible is a horrible reason.

My first impression was exactly what you say, plus I thought they would just drag each other down. I feel the same way about Neal/Mulan or Neal/Regina suggestions. Then I came across a blog that had me change my mind on Hook and Regina a little. It’s the wrong thread to lay it all out, but here is a sketch of it.

I’ve seen people say they want Hook with Emma rather than a character like Ariel, since Hook is their favorite character, and a guest or recurring character for a romantic partner won’t cut it, especially one they haven’t even seen. So for some people, Regina is THEIR favorite, and the same logic applies. While Regina and Hook do not have strong romantic /flirty vibes to me, others say they see chemistry, plus there’s an undercurrent of respect (she calls him Captain, he calls her Queen, not Evil Queen) despite their willingness to betray each other. A turning point was Hook’s reaction in SSTR to Regina’s goodbye speech to Henry. He is watching her and he then says that line to Charming in that sad, emotional way about the things we do for our children. Plus, Lana who plays Regina thought (before actually seeing how Hook would be portrayed in OUAT specifically) that Hook could be interesting for Regina. So the actress was thinking another villain type might be fun for Regina at least in concept (but to be clear, again, it was not her saying how she had been directed to act, or script based or anything). It’s kind of a far in the future thing about making Regina happy by pairing her with someone who can understand her pain and darkness without judging her (like Snow does) for it.

There will always have to be some drama in any relationship of course, so if someone wants to pick apart a pairing, there will always be material to do so, because writers want to create tension, characters need to grow and change and scenes can be ambiguous. All you can do in figuring out whether someone really thinks a ship is interesting is ask what is it you see here? You still may not see it or like it, but you might see enough to see why someone else could like it even if you do not or adamantly opposed to liking it.

All that Glitters–good points. They did invite comparison so it is hard to avoid–but there’s a difference between comparing and contrasting fairly and as I said, trying to shut down anything that isn’t 100% supportive of one’s ship and going overboard with statements to undermine the competing ship. This forum is good about not doing that for the most part–but out on Tumblr land it is the wild wild west of people doing exactly that.

I’ll try to read the Fighting for Love thing later, sounds interesting. I’d already been puzzling over Charming’s statement in What Happened to Frederick that you can’t fight for what doesn’t exist, as well as Belle’s attitude in the bar after being kicked out. They get wrapped up pretty quick in an episode though–they pass their tests and learn to fight. Sf view would be that Neal’s test is ongoing–that he is going to have his realization, but CS point of view is Neal failed his test already. S3 should be interesting to see what they do to bear out one idea or the other. When I have time (was mid in this post when it said a new post was up with the analysis) I’ll read it.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

@MysteryKat25 wrote:

If this is the set-up for true love on this show and CaptainSwan isn’t…then everything we ever knew is a lie and it’s all meaningless. Cause I just don’t understand…at all.

This is the CS thread, and with the mood having been a bit low since the finale, I think it is best not to discuss in detail here, but if you really want to try to understand it, I’d discuss it. Some points you raise are things I have responses far as how I see it differently, and there are some issues I see as “yes, there is that, but future storyline will work around resolving this.” These concepts also apply to how I see Hook and Emma, of course, which is why I’ve said before that the anti-Neal, anti-SF stuff usually ends up undermining (to me anyway) the logic/purpose of putting Hook and Emma together.

I feel this thread is getting bogged down with almost propaganda style reasoning about what makes SF bad, rather than what everyone likes and hopes for in a CS pairing. I half expect to see a poster like “Neal: Wrong about Tamara. Wrong for Emma.” straight out of a manipulative political add tactic. Such things cut out a lot of the subtle things that happened in the show, the tough choices characters had to face in the plot. When the plot unfolds one way, only the writers know what might have happened–we fans are just writing or sometimes re-writing the story when we do a well if they’d just done THIS, then that would have happened. (Like when I imagine what might have happened if Hook had tried to challenge Cora when Emma, Snow, Mulan and Aurora were in Rumpel’s cell and concluded there was nothing he could have done).

I would rather see the best case for both possibilities, so I can choose to root for the one I find more interesting/likely. I don’t mean “straw man” best cases–but the best cases as put forth as passionately and completely as possible. That’s why I like to go to different shipper threads.

Suraya’s list is quite something–as is a post that SaraTN linked long ago about what made CS so tantalizing as a story line. Those kinds of posts move me to think CS has potential. I want to see both sides. That way, I’m also not surprised or misled and let down–and never frustrated to the point of feeling like I wasted my time rooting for something that the writers actually intended as a romantic red herring–whether that is SF or CS.

Now with that out of the way–I also don’t like the trope of “stay together for the child”, but I think there’s a difference between that and something more Jerry Maguireish, more romantic. I do think though both Neal and Hook could have that quality of being “good father material” though we only glimpsed the early stages and attempts at being fatherly. Characters need to start off at a lower point in order to grow in the story, so I don’t think Hook has been shown to be bad with kids. I’m really hoping there’s more to the story with Bae, but if not, then there’ll be stuff with Henry and the rescue.

It’s quite exciting for CS to know that Hook and Emma have this common goal, that she isn’t thinking Neal is alive/sensing a connection to him, and of course, Hook’s growth in putting aside his revenge to save Henry.

I don’t know that Hook is “done” being Hook–feels too early in the story for him to be completely redeemed. I expect some sneaky twists–just like Rumpel wasn’t ready to be Grandpastilskin back in Manhattan.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

What made Charming and Snow’s love so “true” I think were the struggles, temptations and separations. So I agree–I don’t think Neal and Emma ought to be getting together so early in the show’s overall life, even if in the story it has been a long time for them to have met and first fallen in love with each other.

That said–that tweet is definitely NOT confirmation of anything. H&K are quite clever with how they answer tweets or questions, and I think the earlier this month tweet that there is a “rhombus” not just a triangle definitely hints at quite a bit of complicated emotional drama to come.

I’m still split a bit on how it could play out–which is why I like this storyline more than Snowing or Rumbelle. It is more wide open as Emma is on a journey still, as is Neal to understand what true love, specifically romantic true love, means. The writers could have chosen to have Emma “just know” that Neal was alive, rather than almost fatalistically accept his death (just like Rumpel did of course). They did a few other things too that could be the writers pitching a curve ball for Emma. I like the idea of Emma and Neal having a chance though to work through the issues that brought them together and tore them apart, but this separation suggests that might not happen until after she could fall for someone else.

In a way, I saw the Tamara storyline as Neal and Emma’s version of the Abigail/Katherine & Siren storylines. The difference is, Neal did not get that blinding realization moment that he doesn’t love the “Temptress” until after she shot him and Emma came to his rescue. So I’m wondering, does that mean he failed, or does it mean the plot kept him from being able to pass the test, because it is not over yet. If you want SF as endgame, you see it the latter way. Charming’s ordeals were over relatively quickly–in a matter of episodes anyway. There’s always the possibility that the writers mean something with the differences.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

😆 Thanks. I do think Rumplesgirl was right though, the picture is too spot on for Henry. Henry needs something to do after all, some reason to be rescued.

Those are also good points Shandlich that we need a villain who is bad for the sake of it, rather than sympathetic. The Blind Witch was the last one like that.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

It is funny how quickly an assumption can get perceived as fact. There are some things in the show that I was sure went one way, then when I look up the dialog, I realize it isn’t what I thought. Guess the future isn’t the only thing that isn’t what it seems!

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[Author]

Posts