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I kind of want to say something about the show but honestly its either just too long of a rant, or it winds up with me realizing that nothing means anything in this show. It’s just so upside down, and the writers appear to be completely clueless of that. Sure, they know Rumple lying to Belle is bad. They think that’s fun. I get that. You need to introduce conflict always to keep a story moving. That stuff doesn’t bother me at all.
What bothers me are the moments they think are “ok” but really are disturbing. Such as for example, our “heroes” shooting Winged Monkeys despite knowing they are unfortunate victims of a curse of the WW. That could have been played up and make Zelena seem more interesting and threatening as a villain, more psychological really. We could have had the Charmings at least create a moment of “oh no what can we do!?” before Regina just says “I got this” and turns them all into their human selves again. WOW–wouldn’t that have been a “way to hero” move right? It would have helped sell Regina suddenly having white magic at the end of the arc much better too–and would have shown a moment of compassion from her for those who were victimized by WW. They could have suggested something along the lines of, because she knows so well how to hurt with magic, she also knows (if she puts her mind to it) how to help and heal. But no, that would require giving twenty seconds to world-building, wouldn’t it? Easier to say “its magic, dont’ question it!”.
And another moment of sheer “what the what!? I can’t even” was when they had Henry and Snow cheerleading that Marian is frozen. I know it wasn’t so much that she was frozen as they were happy Regina had someone who loves her and True Love conquers all but it comes across that way. Also odd, Emma begging Rumple not to change her past by altering Neal’s heroic death but she’s totally down for changing Mystery woman’s fate (and potentially heroic death)–that is changing Robin’s past. No wonder Regina is so annoyed, not that she’s justified in feeling persecuted or as if Emma intentionally set out to hurt her. Then again, considering Emma saw Regina fireball her mother and thought for a good few minutes Snow died….if Emma acted like Regina, that’s exactly how Regina would have felt –must have revenge! But the writers seem to be saying Regina doesn’t have to see things from Emma’s point of view at all, only her own or her own notions of what she’d do in such a situation–which of course, explains why she feels so many are out to get her because well, its what she would have done. It’s like when they described Henry dying in S1 as “an accident”–he wasn’t the intended target, but it was no accident he at the apple. He knew it was poisoned and it was his hero moment to step up and save the day–and A&E reduced it to “accident”. No wonder they wrote Henry manipulating Rumple by playing with Rumple’s emotions, but failing to suggest Henry had any real emotions over Neal himself.
Hm…that turned into a rant anyway. See, I shouldn’t start or it is hard to stop. So I guess its nice they included a moment recognizing that Neal existed, but with such a fast beat and no dialog, its just so open to interpretation what they meant by it that I feel like –whatever. If they do another scene like the carousel scene–or the breaking out of Rumple’s body to send a memory potion and message one–those are interesting and worth discussing, but now I’ve said I like those scenes, my conspiracy theory says Sally the intern will make sure they never happen again.
[adrotate group="5"]“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Ranisha…GRIMM last night! It’s so good to have a show I look forward to seeing.
Anyway about OUAT…
Just like Regina’s enslavement of Sydney will likely end in a remix of the Greg story (oh look he turns on her and deserves what painful end he gets, or so the main characters will all conclude), I suspect Rumple’s dark turn is just a remix of his slide during Belle’s Lacey days. He came THISCLOSE to killing Henry! So is it out of the realm for him to come thatclose to sucking Emma into a hat? I don’t think so, aside from some feeling that maybe he was supposed to have had some character growth in there. Apparently not, but no matter. Somehow, a new big bad will rise, and they’ll all be thrown into a huge adventure that forces them to overcome any resentment or differences, for Emma to forgive any bad behavior Hook, Rumple and Regina do, because these writers are convinced that’s what Heroes do. They forgive the villains and if they don’t, then it is their fault the villains do more bad stuff. In fact in a very subtle way, the writers seem to be trying to imply no good deed goes unpunished more or less, that meddling heroes cause suffering to the villains, and therefore, the heroes are the real villains. If only they would just roll over and let the villains do what they want, when they want it! There’d be peace. There’d be happy endings, even for the heroes who surely don’t deserve it, because they would redefine happiness around seeing a villain content (for the moment because ultimately, the villains are the ones who are never satisfied, are they? But its that drive and ambition, that passion that makes them so much more interesting to the audience, so “rooted for” and well, as long as that’s how the writers view the fans, and the fans view the story being told, that’s what it will be).
I have some more conspiracy theory about the People’s choice. The producer changed to Mark Burnett this year–the guy who is famous for the reality show Survivor. What some don’t know about him though is he’s had a religious awakening of sorts when he married Roma Downey (star of Touched by an Angel)–and together they are producing Biblical Blockbusters, because they feel this segment of the heartland’s point of view and appreciation for the Bible isn’t reflected in a lot of modern entertainment (paraphrasing some interview they gave). Now here’s the conspiracy part–its funny how the category changes came with Country Music, favorite duos instead of hot chemistry and a bunch of other things. It’s like they designed the contest for a different set of “people” than the jaded, anti-hero idolizing, hot scene craving group. I’m not saying they entirely changed the flavor of the show, because they didn’t, but its like they widened some of its focus. Either way, the person running the ABC twitter for OUAT probably had her head explode.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Rainbow, good luck and you know what they say, Fake it until you make it: http://www.ted.com/speakers/amy_cuddy Strike a power pose and go do that thing!
Just a note on my earlier cynical comment about the People’s Choice. Of course there are many reasons for people to love Neal, and Snow and Charming too! It just felt that over the last season and a half the voices of those who adored all those characters were being drowned out by folks who despised them, or just found them boring. I’ve always just been someone who rooted for the good characters who tried to do good things, so I’m out of place in a fandom that’s predominantly Dearies, Hookers and Regals. I could get on board rooting for those three to become good people doing good things, and enjoying them being scheming, feuding types who constantly trip each other up–but its like we’re in this nowhere land of driving around in circles to keep the story going.
The way the writers do certain things also continues to puzzle me because just as I’m won over to Regina changing and bonding with Henry, they show Henry spouting some really odd things like its good Marian’s frozen and Regina is off in the corner imprisoning Sydney. I’m fairly sure he’s going to get the Greg Mendel treatment, poor Sydney. They have Emma finally being a sheriff again, but mostly because some guy ruined her date night !?. Way to take a S1 Mayor Mills power trip there Emma. Snow gets more screen time cheerleading Emma’s date than reacting to Emma almost dying? Charming…well I’m still confused by his telling Emma she’s right not to trust Hook, then insisting she take him along to a dangerous fight. As long as the writers continue to feel the heart of this story is villains getting a happy ending through romance, it will require distorting quite a bit how characters react to various things and what stories the writers feel should be on screen, and what only gets implied as off-screen. I just want “my show” back but if that happened, well many of those who couldn’t stand S1 and never watched it would probably lose “their” show. So while I want to be more positive and Rah Rah show, its just hard to be that way when so many things stand out as just off and no one (outside this thread far as I’ve glimpsed, but I’m not up on the latest threads I admit) really feels safe enough to talk about it without coming off as totally anti-something that others just adore. I’m not looking to rain on anyone’s parade, so its just easier to pop in here when the mood strikes because sometimes its just nice to know others have similar thoughts and frustrations–but also similar things they hope will once again be part of the fabric of this show, somehow, someway.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
What’s the opposite of throwing shade? Catching sunshine? Well I hope you all catch some sunshine, but I’m unfortunately as ever stuck in the tent of doom and gloom when it comes to this show, the writers and most of all the fandom.
The Neal nomination doesn’t shock me as controversy inspires people to react, so I think a lot of “media” journalists probably do miss “Neil” in the sense that using his name was sure to get a bunch of passionate replies about how awful and worthless he was, and maybe a few voices in dissent, the few who actually liked Neal as a character and felt motivated enough to say so despite the negative commentary sure to ensue in response.
That said, at this point with this show I feel I’ll never stop if I start to explain the many things I think so its best to keep my remarks more on the short side. At times I’m also convinced, wacky as it is, that there truly is a Sally the Intern, and her job is to read this thread and instruct her bosses on all we like, so they can retcon/undermine/do less/say it was your interpretation about it, and conversely, anything we dislike, she needs to urge them to do more, confirm as true, and more or less make the show all about it.As I said, there’s more, so much more to say, but I’ll shorten it to a lot of PREACH, and THIS to certain things said here.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Lol yes, Ranisha.
GG when asked about her character’s storyline, talks about the guilt the Charming’s have from not raising Emma–and of course how “Emma has a remarkable story with Hook”. So I’m guessing this translates to the Charmings will be written as if they’re heavy-handed parents of a teenager, creating lots of problems for Emma to be with Hook, so people can “root” for these two because what else says romance like disapproving parental figures? See songs like “Rude” by Magic! and “Romeo and Juliet” by Taylor Swift…of course, when you’re not a teenager, and you have kids of your own and you think a bit more about the world, well, it feels different. [url=”http://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/dads-hilarious-response-hit-song-rude-viral/story?id=24581342″%5D Rude Response [/url] It makes me realize, how many people hated that Snow and Charming approved of Neal, were encouraging her to try to give him a chance. There were of course those who hated they had a positive opinion of him “after what he did to Emma”, never mind Snow and Charming are the poster children for giving people second chances. Never mind the complicated original circumstances of that, that he’d apologized and he’d already risked his life for Emma by then (pre Going Home ) and stood up for Henry as his father and maybe had worked hard to try to prove himself as a brave, morally sound, trustworthy sort of guy. Even beyond those people, there were probably people who subconsciously think if “the parents like the guy, then girl shouldn’t”. Something like that. I mean, its common enough for CW teen soap shows that people expect it to play out that way right? The parents/friends NEVER like the guy the heroine’s supposed to be “with” so if they do, that’s a big strike against..Ah, teen soap drama.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Text, it is the right thing to do. I took a break and spend less time but more than that I just tried to find a new fictional world to enjoy. I found several and am really looking forward to quite a few shows, but obviously I miss the camaraderie and discussion of this place. Yet I hesitate to find forums for these other shows (some are just books). Enjoy school, life and everything you can and ultimately, remember that out of disappointment with one story, a new one can be born or discovered. Today it may be only in our hands as fanfics, but who knows where and how our thoughts influence new generations of writers, TV show producers and filmmakers. Who knows what this experience might inspire you to discover that already exists such as those who plan to watch Sons of Liberty or already discovered Terriers, or perhaps to read books people mention when drawing on literature to make comparisons. We may have varied thoughts on why we feel let down by this show, and maybe just maybe a new story will be created somewhere that surpasses our expectations or we try some show we might not otherwise but for discussion here ever considered watching. In the end, our general attitude to the potential of Neal and Emma as a couple but more so Neal as a character did not come from some vaccuum, there are other storytellers who see such potential in similar situations and dynamics, even if these writers no longer do.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Let’ s just copy Watcher’s GIF over and over–oh gee, there’s a big surprise about those spoilers. Funny Regina feels she has to find the book’s authors to rewrite herself a happy ending –wonder if Adam and Eddy are planning some actual self-insertion cameos? The story already WAS rewritten Regina, its just a temporary story setback to keep tension and suspense for the season, don’t worry! Evil…I mean, former evil that’s now good, but somehow lacking in empathy and compassion and concern for anyone else beyond one’s own happy ending, always wins! I also fully predict some Regina/Emma TLK as a surface parallel to Elsa and Anna, but chock-full of subtext for SQers, just what they did with Mulan/Aurora, but then just before CSers flip tables –Jones will propose to Emma and she will say yes. Then SQers can rant a but then repeat its TRUE LOVE, TRUE LOVE! Meanwhile, the rest of SF shippers will ….change nothing, because it’s already so far down the drain what’s the point? BUT….if there’s a big enough hue and cry, if the writers see the ratings slip, in their back pocket they can have Rumple being sneaky, and magic, whatever, bring back Neal, Graham, and Hatter and end with a big question mark LOST style bloodbath leading to wish fulfillment where everyone dies, but everyone’s been reborn in different versions of the stories, in different combinations –a very meta take on fanfiction reinventing stories as they happen.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I thought Frozen was good, but I agree, it’s kind of funny how it became such a hit. It’s like the hula-hoop, its a fun toy, but why it became a national obsession for a time and now is just one more toy in the aisle, who knows? Some things are just fads, its not that they are any better or worse than other things but maybe its a matter of timing or hitting a nerve in the culture at the right time–not that the thing that starts the fad is always totally useless or horrible. A hula hoop after all is still good exercise and fun!
In many ways, Frozen just did things other Disney/Pixar films did. Spunky, active heroine? Yes, look at Tangled and Princess and the Frog, and the Pixar Brave. Romance isn’t the love story? Yes, I mentioned Brave already, all about the mother and daughter relationship. What it did though was combine things so there was the music and beautiful 3D visuals, the romance and the strong family story about sisters. Little girls didn’t want to dress up as Queen Elinor–but Queen Elsa? They like her much more, want to identify and be her more than Anna even. I was at a little kids library program where they sung that “When I grow up to be…” song, and almost every little girl said she wanted to be Elsa. ( Go figure. I was proud of mine (6) for saying she wanted to be an architect, but then for Halloween guess who even she wants to be? Yes, Elsa. ) She loves her for building the ice palace…but there’s something powerful about Elsa in a way that other Disney princess heroines I suppose have never been. Of course, she’s not a Disney princess, she’s a Queen. She doesn’t revel that she has these powers and can do whatever she want regardless of how it hurts others–it actually horrifies her. She runs away to protect everyone from her, but also to give her a measure of freedom to be who she is, tired of repressing her power for the greater good. So she is in many ways, not the villain from whom everyone needs to be saved, but the one who needs to be saved as well.
I can see why A&E loved Frozen. The problem though is what they set out to write was much worse. Regina, Jones, and Rumple all were actually selfish people who at times have reveled in that. Regina laughing as Marian pleas for mercy? That’s a horrible image, and Elsa never seemed amused by the pain she caused people, unlike I would say, Regina, Jones and Rumple at times. They found it funny or amusing when they hurt people sometimes. I think the writers did intend to originally write them as sociopaths, but the problem is, they’re the more appealing and interesting characters to the writers and a lot of the audience, and whatever their original intentions (shown by hiring Sbarge and Ory, planning arcs for them, for Bailey and the last straw for me as an enchanted rather than disenchanted fan, for MRJ.. )–this is where we are.
What I think interesting is that there is something intertwined between heroes and villains. This article is a very interesting read on it. Thin Line . So heroes and Villains are alike –its easy at times to confuse the two, or to imagine reasons they should get along, or that one could flip easily from one to the other. Of course we root for people to find the light rather than lose it.
I’m all for seeing that sort of story, if indeed it IS that. This is where OUAT fails though, because the redemption is achieved by shortcuts aplenty. Victims have zero voice in this story to talk about their pain. Anything bad the villains do is, since Season 3, gets dismissed as “in the past”–yet the past is what happens to the present after a commercial break. It drives me nuts that there’s no real moral confrontation in this story about the attitude and choices the villains have. So the villains can have evil ambitions that get thwarted or they change their mind last second, so no lasting harm done, and even if lasting harm is done (like with Graham or Johanna), no one talks about it to those responsible. King George gets locked up in the mines for trying to frame Ruby and killing Gus–the last sort of attempt at justice on the show. Apparently everyone’s been just content with Mirror sitting in jail for a crime that Regina orchestrated then framed him for all of it –and she’s never felt on her own hey, I should let that guy out because HE doesn’t deserve to be there for MY crime. Or maybe I should try to return some of these hearts.
From what I hear, its all about her quest for happiness. Instead of Regina telling Robin she understands and wants him to be happy even if not with her (aww, heartbreak), we apparently will have him telling her he loves her still but he’s got the ball and chain, so what are you going to do? She’ll decide to be a hero and save Marian, showing growth–but meanwhile she’s also secretly plotting to break up Marian’s marriage to Robin essentially by finding the author of the books to rewrite her fate. Spoiler Regina, they already rewrote it, stop worrying! You’ll be fine. Marian? Not so much–one way or another, whether she pulls a Katherine/Abigail “I want to find someone who loves me as much as you love her….” or gets hit by a truck, Marian’s not getting her happy ending with Robin. Everyone else has to settle for a new definition of happiness (August? Reversion to child of course. Neal? Heroic Death. Marian? If she’s lucky, she can live to cheer her ex-husband marrying the woman who in a now alternate timeline killed her, and still in this timeline cursed everyone for decades and slaughtered hundreds of others and then redeemed in the sense, she’s found less selfish and damaging ways of seeking her happiness without needing to feel compassion and a desire to restore happiness to those she stole it from. Yes, this show is ALL about hope).
Remember when Regina thought Henry would be enough? Kind of what Cora told Regina as she died–but apparently that’s not enough for Regina anymore. She still wants it all–and what’s changed is that the writers are determined (because fans are) to see she gets it. Not right away, of course, but it is the clearly marked destination for this story now–Emma bringing back Happy Endings isn’t about restoring the wrongs Regina and Rumple created anymore–it is to make sure Regina, Rumple and Jones all get their happy endings and that everyone else redefines their happiness to fit within that, or dies or otherwise is put out of the way.
There’s a quote from Jane Austen that fits the writing and fan view of this story very well. “With a perversity of judgement, which must be attributed to his not having by Nature a very strong head, the Graces, the Spirit, the Sagacity, and the Perseverance, of the Villain of the Story outweighed all his absurdities and all his Atrocities with Sir Edward. With him, such Conduct was Genius, Fire and Feeling. It interested and inflamed him; and he was always more anxious for its Success and mourned over its Discomfitures with more Tenderness than could ever have been contemplated by the Authors.”
― Jane AustenExcept these authors not only contemplated and endorsed such tenderness, they encourage it, and it has become the lynchpin of their story. We shouldn’t for example cringe that Rumple covers up his lie to Belle and his murder of Zelena. No we should root that no one catches him in that lie or discovers what he’s done, because it was just in the past, and he wouldn’t do that again! Good thing all it takes is visiting Neal’s grave, for Bae to inspire him to be better, no need to waste screen time on or pay on an actor to say nothing in response to all that, right? If he were alive, maybe he could call Rumple out but then Neal would be raged at by the fanbase, so really, its best its just Rumple talking and chastising himself. Its not ok for anyone else to say he’s done wrong and needs to do better, perhaps not even Belle, for we all think he’s perfect, unless he himself thinks otherwise, and even then, we must disagree with him.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I think I was talking about this in the Ranch recently with people, but I figure they’re pushing for enough episodes for syndication, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it backfires on them. Once isn’t one of those shows where you can just jump into an episode and catch on right away. If someone catches an episode in the the middle of season 2, and has no previous framework of the characters and the story, what is the probability of them being interested enough to either stick around, or wait until the syndication cycle starts from the beginning again? And the plot holes that are easy enough for the GA to either ignore or miss when episodes are airing every week, or several weeks apart? To me I think those things would be glaringly obvious if watched in a 5 day/week cycle. I’ve been told that Lost hasn’t done very well in syndication and I wouldn’t be surprised if Once is headed for the same outcome.
I definitely think they are pulling for syndication. Very few show runners dream of putting story first and ratings and employment second. Why would they? They might hedge admitting this is a choice because of ego, but Stephen
king said as much about Under The Dome, that to fill a network order means stretching the story. I think the writers have now embraced anything goes as their motto, in particular plot/world building does not matter at all. Some fans embrace it too, noting the camp factor, and not expecting realistic behavior from the characters.
In that, I think Neal was too gritty with too many serious drama vibes to work for the ironic campy comedic tone the series prefers. Maybe MRJ felt uncomfortable and ridiculous with some things and tried to talk with the writers to fix it, you know this does not make sense etc. but they got annoyed at how seriously he took the role, questioning their writing. Something about the line about comparing a ship going through a portal versus a candle trapping a shadow stuck me as very meta. Yet I disagree that one is as ridiculous as the other. They introduced magic beans as portal devices that were rare and powerful, but why and how could Bae find a candle and know he could trap a shadow? It came out of nowhere, with no explanation. A line like it is a magic candle that Tink had or a mermaid gave him, some hint of story to set it up would work wonders more than ugh, stop asking questions just listen to what happens next. That is lazy writing. Explanations for fantastic elements do not have to be exposition heavy, but there should be something to build the story and keep characters at consistent levels of power and ability.
it strikes me that A&E have previous teen soap type writing credits, and while Jane does do soft scifi fantasy, she is more a relationship person. They may not have anyone with significant voice in the writers room who understands the importance of world building, so magic as metaphor changes from plot to plot, character to character leaving giant plot holes, coupons and tumors in the wake. At the same time, they love the crack-wacky twists, actively seek it out. One of their fave phrases is just because this does not mean that thing it usually would. Another is, it is one thing for this but another that–more fine distinctions and hair splitting.
I did some surfing of that forum associated with Previously TV and of course I see a familiar tone of villain glorification and shipping, hero bashing but also several more sensible takes, looking at storytelling choices and lots of posts I feel say things I would say. It is not Neal friendly territory but there are enough voices talking about flawed storytelling choices and lost potential rather than ascribing a “he deserved to die so it was good story” attitude. There are one or two posts like that and they annoy me but people seem to ignore pointing out the obvious maybe in favor of peace, I do not know. I do not want to register there to argue with anyone but there are some posts that are different to what gets said here and are thought provoking.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Yes, being GA would be nice but then again, I might find it more frustrating and hard to understand when plot twists hit. Neal, Graham and August are all bounced from the story for whatever reason. If Stan or Doran wanted back, well they would no doubt be written in a heartbeat but I think both have better offers on the table. I can only hope for more plot twists really to shake it up even more, change the landscape that is getting boring and repetitive, side effect of having to ignore previous development to write ships that leash the antagonist characters, and put blinders on the protagonists.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
