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Lovely thoughts Heather! I agree they’ve built many moments of these two showing they care about each other. There’s lots of little pats on the shoulder and stuff. There’s a closeness there that hasn’t faded despite her anger and hurt, and a consideration that goes BOTH ways. That’s what makes me ship it is that Emma shows she loves Neal too.
I agree, the why he’s there is obvious. Her family is in danger, and why he would be willing to undertake the task is because he feels he loves her. Yet how he got there, and when he got there (relative to the danger) is a good question. I think we’ve already assumed the curse is already cast, but a lot of fans would be surprised that they’re going to SB not to the EF. So Hook comes from SB to NYC. I think he’s one of a few people who weren’t in the original curse and therefore can escape it. That might be what the fight on the horse scene is about. Rapzunel’s hair might be able to protect the memories of someone from the new curse, but Hook takes it so that he’s the one that can escape, promising to help everyone. Neal’s being held back by Charming who’s telling him that it’ll be ok because while Hook might be piratey, he will keep his word about getting Emma to help. Neal just has to trust that Emma will realize what went on and it isn’t worth fighting about that when they have bigger problems. Then the curse hits or something. So no idea if Neal is on the gurney or not–but could be he has no memories of Emma either! I’m just going to hope that whatever the reason Neal isn’t in NYC it’s not going to be something about lack of desire to go but something practically speaking it wasn’t going to make sense.
[adrotate group="5"]“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Well WR–I know you’re anxious to see OQ kiss but…if not Regina–wouldn’t you rather its Marian in the past? I mean, you kind of already figure with Roland being there…you know. So its water under the bridge 😛
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I think the “not possible” thing would suggest something that might help convince her to believe something about magic potions as opposed to thinking “Danger danger, I live in NY and its just another drug-drunk-addled stranger!” So an ordinary object anyone could have or even that Neal might have had left over from their thief days wouldn’t I think do it.
I also suggested the idea that Neal had a photo that he printed out that day in Manhattan from the camera. These days you can get 1 hour photos or just print yourself one on a computer. If there was at least one night between the scene where Neal encounters Rumple and out for pizza and museum (looked like Emma changed clothes slightly), he definitely might have been so proud-papa that he took a quick snap with Henry on the fireescape (selfie!) and printed it and stuck it in a frame he already had. Maybe a frame that had the Tallahassee map in it too, I do like that idea, but it also feels a bit of a plot breadloaf as they didn’t show us before that day other than mentioning the camera. It would have been better to show us Neal picking up photos as they walk down the street or something but then again, Rumple’s doll just dropped out of nowhere too. We found out later on its huge significance.
It is possible that Hook’s words alone convince Emma to take the potion and the scene of her holding something is just Regina’s place. Only thing I could be more sure of is that it is not stylistically Emma’s or MM’s Lofts as lofts don’t tend to have crown molding details as they’re more modern style. Neal’s apartment was a bit more detailed as Phee showed (though pretty grungy seeming still!) so it could be Regina’s mansion as well or some totally other different location. The apartment of Gorham’s character? A hotel room that Hook has rented? Agent Coulson’s office? Ok probably not that, but we have no idea of the context so all speculations within very limited bounds are free game.
The Dream Catcher scene is definitely not the one from before last season as there’s a hole in the dreamcatcher now, lower left corner–but it does otherwise look the same. What it means, and which dreamcatcher this is–could be the one in Gold’s shop that Emma used on Pongo for doggie-eyewitness, who knows. I do think its unlikely Emma takes her red peacoat to SB if she’s seen getting in the bug with her red jacket on–but again, she could pack bags.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Could it be marian? Flashback to who cursed her (WWW!)
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I’m curious how it will do, because NBC isn’t the top dog network right now but it always changes. That’s a good pedigree for a show but I’ve heard people say Meghan’s show isn’t doing well but then other places say it did better than OUAT. I don’t know where to look for hard numbers so there’s always a lot of distortion in the fandoms when it comes to stuff like that.
I liked Mulan’s character but don’t feel she’s necessary for the story to continue. Maybe she’s the rumored “death”–I could see Mulan having a noble end sacrificing herself to save the baby Philora.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Nicely done Slureez.
I think its interesting though that Eric and Ariel didn’t exactly feel all that time passing. We don’t know how NL time works still (or does it work….my theory is no time means..no time passing for you relative to the rest of the world where it still moves on) but Eric spent a year without Ariel after the curse broke. Neal and Emma had 11 years of normal, nonmagic separation, no shortcuts like forgetting potions or curses. That’s bound to create a problem of feeling less sure of each other in itself even if you parted on essentially good terms, which Neal and Emma, and Ariel and Eric did not (he thought she stood him up!)! That’s what Neal probably thinks now, that Emma chose not to go rather than was about to go and was prevented by fate more or less and her fears.
They’re both going to have nerves about it, and I hope we see some of the angsty stuff fade and more of the cute sort of butterflies stuff happening. There were hints of that right after their collision in Manhattan but then Tamara showed up and Emma slammed down a wall.
Ariel and Eric didn’t have to put up with that kind of scenario! And now there’s another interloper so to speak in their midst, with Hook and his relentless pursuit of Emma. Neal and Emma have such a unique relationship that even when it does “parallel” another –it’s still fresh and different and keeps me guessing where it will go (yet still hoping they work it out!).
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Jo, that’s so true. I can just picture Emma going everywhere, and feeling he’s there.
There’s a couple of gifsets manips on tumblr showing Neal sort of photo-shopped into scenes with Emma and Henry in NY, kind of a “presence” thing. I would love it if after Hook encounters Emma in the park talking about the potion and all that, and she has him arrested, Emma goes back to her apartment rattled. She then starts to look for the Swan Pendant, realizes it isn’t there in her stuff, then starts tearing through her things. She comes across the blanket, and a picture of herself and MM. She’s confused. She then finds an address in her phone she doesn’t remember but it is in NY. So she goes there. It’s Neal’s old place and she picks the lock and goes in . There’s dust everywhere. She grabs the dreamcatcher and a flood of memories startle her, memories she doesn’t remember having about Neal, her and a man she doesn’t know shouting. Then she goes to the police office and drops the charges. She waits for Hook, and he gives her the potion. She drinks it and then she remembers. He’s relieved she remembers. He starts to try to kiss her, and she stops and asks about Neal. He says then you love him? And she says yes, I’m sorry Hook. Then she gives him the pity hug because she does feel bad for Hook because she doesn’t feel the same way, but she doesn’t hate him either, still appreciates his help. That’s what I hope is going to go down….I know they’ll probably drag all this out more than that but I’d kind of like it if Emma ends Hook’s ambitions towards her before really working things out with Neal. I dont want it going in a direction where Hook thinks if Neal were out of the picture he’d still have a shot–want it more, no, not going to happen, whatever happens with Neal. That’s not a prediction of course–just my hope, but just like I hoped they wouldn’t go for “torn between two lovers” triangle well, who knows.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I think Snow sort of feels the way J.MO did in season 1, when she said about Nealfire that she knew something terrible happened but was more surprised that it was somewhat justified. So I’m hesitant to infer knowledge about an event to a character when its not shown on screen, especially if the event is something itself not fully depicted on screen either. Still, Snow knows it wasn’t all…rainbow kisses and unicorns for Emma and Neal.
We tend to on this thread get very curious about how Snow and Emma would react to the knowledge that Milah was Hook’s ex-girlfriend AND Neal’s mother. Maybe neither of them would care much or maybe they already know and don’t care much. We have no way to really know for sure, and just as we were debating whether Regina knew that Neal was Henry’s father in Miller’s Daughter or what he thought of Regina–some of that was not shown onscreen until after it was kind of awkward for the characters to NOT have known. Yet Regina didn’t know at the well why Neal was so concerned. So I found it funny, that Regina must have been at the well thinking “Gold’s son certainly inherited his father’s talent for meddling in things that don’t concern him!” but safe to say by now they figured it all out, even if Neal never reacted on screen to the fact Regina adopted Henry. We also didn’t get much of a reaction from Belle or Neal to Rumple killing Milah, or Emma to Regina for Graham’s death (aside from the deleted scene where it was definitely addressed).
What that says to me is that the cutting room floor probably has all the small character moment that we want to see, so for the writers unless they make an effort to go back to show us something, odds are they think the characters are past that point and the fans are too. If they ever felt pressured to write a scene about it though, while I wouldn’t expect Emma to have zero reaction to Milah being who she was to Neal and Hook, I don’t expect a big reaction either Sometimes the reaction is just J.Mo making a face and saying “Seriously?” or “Really?”
I feel Emma would have a huge filter for weird, and Snow would have a filter for dark pasts, and likely the fans expecting some huge reversal based on the “hidden information ” expect too much given how significant the more recent experiences everyone’s had together. Neal wasn’t trying to hide some nefarious plan to ruin Emma’s life and while Hook did downplay his true relationship with Neal, it is possible still that there was more to their story than just that moment on the boat. Maybe it was fair to say they were friends by the end of their time 100’s of years later on NL, close in a way despite opposite feelings about Rumple and Hook’s need for revenge.
The writing on that was a let-down, but its not ONLY the triangle where the writers have dropped the character development ball but it is a very visible example and magnifies a problem already existing in the writing. J.Mo and GG complained I think that they wanted more scenes of their characters reacting to things, building their relationship and they were probably satisfied that NL at least let them have scenes about their character’s relationship. So maybe some of these things will get better but it felt that the writers had to contrive things to get their characters to just talk. Here’s this map, here’s this cave…..and I know it is a fantasy and we need action, mystical doodads and things but at some point in S1 I also liked the “real world” aspect where we’d see Snow and Emma just having coffee to chat, not realizing anything life threatening was going on.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
This is part of a GIFset about Snow supporting Emma’s happiness. SOURCE
I want to talk about Snow’s character and how it relates to her reactions to Neal in relation to Emma.
Some people think Snow is just this unrealistic fairytale princess and in some ways, sure that’s how she grew up until her father married Regina. Then she faced a series of challenges that unrealistic as they are to ordinary people, toughened her, but did not destroy her faith that doing the right thing, choosing to hope rather than hate, would eventually bring her happiness. She did not instantly have that attitude. There were moments when she felt doubt or despair or longed to feel nothing at all.
She doubted herself when Regina challenged her for the kingdom. She felt despair when George threatened her to leave Charming. She longed to feel nothing when she went to Rumple and took a potion to forget him.
As MM, she didn’t have Eva’s legacy in her mind. She didn’t feel the pressure of conforming to an ideal of being a noble princess. She still was mainly a good person who didn’t want to hurt Katherine just because (she thought) she and Katherine both loved David. She still expected David to break up with Katherine properly, tell her what it was about. I don’t know if Katherine would have been happier with the truth than the “pack of lies about not connecting” but it would at least have been the truth about his feelings. MM being of modern society didn’t have the idea that a marriage is forever but only as long as the parties both want it. She still had the idea that when two people love each other, they can find a way to be together. She was just expressing the counter-idea about Katherine and David–when they don’t love each other, they don’t have to stay together.
Snow has never once said to Emma anything like “Neal’s your true love because he was your first love!” She has not said she has to be with Neal because that’s better for Henry. Snow saw Emma have feelings for Graham. She saw the banter with August. She’s not blind to Hook’s pursuit of Emma or Emma’s confused responses. Yet she knows love when she sees it.
So did Katherine. That’s one of the things that “fairytale” mentality has over cynical real world thinking. Katherine saw Snow look at David, and realized she wanted that for herself. That was her fairytale self peeping through the curse, because actually, she had a true love of her own but had been cursed and forgotten him. According to the writers, they’re together in SB still.
Snow has been written as recognizing love in others for others as she did with Ariel. If the writers say “well Snow’s just selfish and clueless, and projecting her own feelings onto Emma, without realizing that Neal is not Charming…” it shows no growth from little Snow who did do that when thinking about Cora and Regina. Cora however was abnormal and that was the point. Most people have a heart to temper their ambition, and Cora very much wanted not just material power gained through Regina, but also revenge against Eva through Snow. That was not a normal situation basically.
Neal’s not a “mini-dark-one” or a coward, which Snow recognizes. She’s fought side by side with him now (or Charming or Emma have) and she knows he doesn’t approve of Rumple’s dark nature. She knows that even though he was angry at Rumple, that he risked his life to save him, plus ensure that someone like Cora wouldn’t get the dagger. He’s tried to be a father to Henry even when he wanted to marry another woman–and at that time Emma was still insisting she didn’t want him romantically either. Snow saw all of the choices he made and that doesn’t just vanish if she finds out some new, less positive information.
Yet that history between Neal and Emma ought to also include WHY he left her, how he and she met (she stole a stolen car), ( how she convinced him to let her steal the watches to help him get away with stealing the watches!) I don’t expect to see the whole thing on screen but presumably, Snow and Charming would be talking to Neal and he’d say that without her memories, he’s not so sure Emma would want to see him. That’s what Neal felt right when August rode into SB, and it was accurate.
That’s true, Emma felt that way when she had only real world explanations to account for his behavior. Snow on the other hand will hear the story in the context of knowing about the curse, knowing her own sacrifices, both with Emma and with leaving Charming. She knows August too, and while she doesn’t know all the bad things he did either, ultimately, Snow’s been forgiving of people who do harmful things. She’s had that attitude with so many characters like Red, Anton, Graham and partly, it was her experience as a thief that maybe gave her compassion for others making a wrong choice in bad circumstances but being able to get themselves back on a better path. Similar to Emma, really. I don’t see why Snow (or Emma) should be so harsh on Neal alone out of everyone they’ve ever met, to the point they refuse to consider what he knew or could have known, and his intentions but do that with so many other characters.
They wouldn’t. They wouldn’t with Hook either, but its besides the point. I’m not upset that they’re making ground on forgiving and getting along with Hook and Regina now–that’s character development. NL changed things for everyone and a large part of it was that they were placed in a circumstance of having no choice but to trust each other (well that or die…) and Regina and Hook didn’t stab them in the back. That meant a LOT–but having lower expectations for some people doesn’t mean you aren’t impressed by someone you expect to do the right thing following through and you know, doing it.
They may not know everything Neal went through to get to them in NL. Maybe they think he dropped through the portal. Maybe he’s told them the whole story by now. Even if not, they saw him come out of that cage and risk his life to help get them all to safety and save Henry. He stood up to his father, he rowed that boat out to challenge Pan. He wasn’t cowering in fear or running. Sometimes in a story, the spotlight will be on one character or another and they save the day, while the others wait. It doesn’t make David or Neal cowardly that Hook threw himself at the shadow. It doesn’t make Hook or David cowardly that they didn’t go to Skull rock and face down Pan, or have the pull to get in Rumple’s face to challenge his motives. The story has to rotate who is acting bravely at various points.
So for the characters in the story, they see these good sides of Neal and as the audience we see very little evidence of selfish motivations from Neal in the “use and abuse” or self-preservation sense. We do see him acting out of self-doubt, out of pride or at times, hurt and anger against Rumple. Yet he’s been very much a good guy that Snow would have seen him around Emma, and even knowing he once made some mistakes, I don’t think it takes away the positive knowledge and experiences she has had with him.
More importantly than that though is this concept that Snow knows Emma never stopped loving him. Despite whatever horrible thing Neal had done in the past that made her the type of person who arrived in SB with huge emotional walls, who denied she had any feelings for him at all, that love was there. Plus Snow (unlike some fans) knows some of emotional walls were the result of all those years of bad foster homes, not just what Neal did. Snow knows she’s to “blame” in the sense she wasn’t there for Emma as a mother. She might be unsure of how to make up for it, or even doubt whether she really can, but I don’t think her interest in Emma being happy is out of guilt.
She LOVES Emma, and we’ve seen Snow willing to die for Emma. Her behavior in NL might have made it seem like Snow was shrugging her shoulders and saying “Oh well, let’s replace her” but it wasn’t that at all. Emma told Snow she was “too late” and Snow still feels its her job to change that feeling, but at the same time, she can’t just jump in and be “mom” with Emma. All she can do is give her love and support, and when she thought it was either Charming or Emma–she made the opposite choice she would have when Emma was a baby. She was going to go with Emma in the cabinet pregnant and alone (and I think would have gone with Emma after the birth if she’d known about Gepetto’s lie). She did that because Emma wasn’t a baby.
It’s not an easy line to support without controlling, and that’s how parenting changes when dealing with adult children. My parents struggle with it with me, and one day I’ll struggle with my kids I’m sure. Snow and David are trying to get it right, but I think they’ve done well in terms of not laying down the law to Emma. They want her to make HER choices, but because they love her, they want to share their wisdom because they do have some, especially about love, hope and forgiveness. They have it because they lived it, not because its some pie-in-the-sky idea for them but their own experiences in a not-so-Disney-perfect fairytale that they’ve lived.So “TLDR” Snow is intuitive about love, wants to help and isn’t trying to tell Emma who to love, but just expressing a positive opinion about Neal based on positive experiences with him. Whatever his past, Snow’s forgiven others with complicated or bad choices, so he’d be no different so long as he is NOW motivated to be good to Emma (and he is). If Emma has more anger and reasons to hate Neal than she’s revealed to Snow, then these are things not revealed to the audience either. What we saw on screen painted Neal in much the same light as other basically good characters forced to make sacrifices or tough choices that had some bad effects on others.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
There’s so much we don’t know at this point but was nice to have a few things new to mull over.
I don’t know about the potion/talismans/gurney business but I know it sounds like Wicked is going to be an antagonist to Regina, and guessing our other main characters will likely be on Regina’s side or caught in crossfire. I don’t think Wicked is shaping up to be “misunderstood” any more than Pan or Cora. Pan’s ambitions were kind of narrow when you think about it, despite the scale of his operation. All he wanted was to live forever and fly. He wasn’t exactly planning world domination or something.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
