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Actually, speaking of his name, and planning, this was buried in the thread, but there’s a connection to the name Neal in Barrie’s life. Someone found excerpts from a literary analysis thing telling the story of a little boy named Neil who Barrie may have used as inspiration for Peter Pan.
The Blot on Peter Pan Anyway just a cute little aside.
[adrotate group="5"]“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I see what you mean Slurpeez that Emma being an embodiment of True Love might suggest she could break out of a curse despite it being a memory curse, despite being in the Land without (much) Magic, but at the same time–Rumple’s kiss didnt’ reach Belle and Charming could not wake Snow because of the technicality that the present persona did not remember the love. So there is that–but I feel as I said it is an argument that proves nothing either way, since if Grumpy kissed Emma. Belle or Snow, they wouldn’t have woken up either! So I still feel it was a dodge by the writers to make it seem like something happened when it was kind of a non-event. They did not establish that Emma felt love let alone true love for Hook prior to that moment so I think only CS fans would feel let down by it not working. Besides–Henry is canonically Emma’s true love–she has GOT to have given him a little peck or he her in an entire year! So I feel TLK wasn’t going to work on that particular type of curse–you have to remember that you love the person and they have to remember they love you.
I am doubtful Hook will win Emma over and have her fall in love with him, because I feel like he only got as far as he did with her because she was on an island that made her super-emotional, full of grief and seriously at a lack of options to avoid him as he knew things necessary for survival there. She did appreciate the help quite sincerely. It probably made him go from someone she could barely stand (all her eye rolls, hitting his broken ribs) to someone she has some friendly feelings mixed with attraction as he was very blatant that he desired her and that he wants love. She’s had a very lonely life so it was potent for her to feel so wanted, but at the same time she knows in the back of her mind he plays people and Emma hates that (see pilot, her treatment of Ryan,reaction to August lying, accusation she tossed at Neal), even if he is not playing her. Yet there is more to feeling loved than just feeling wanted, and it remains to be seen if they want the same things out of life in general. Hook’s getting a chance to woo her in NYC far as we can tell but that doesn’t mean the writers have decided to write Neal as moving on or some other thing like that. So we’ll just have to wait and see.
One more random thing…Double Standards is something Im tired of hearing about because look, characters on the show hold Hook accountable at times for the things he did to them, not Emma. Charming punched Hook in the face for hitting him with a lead pipe. Did Neal hit Charming? No. Snow rolled her eyes at Hook because he was making innuendo and holding out on them (and he ran away to go find Cora). I am all for Snow and Charming finding out what Neal did, but only if they hear the whole story of how Emma talked him into helping cover up a crime, how he did not want to let her but believed in her, how he was blindsided and ambushed by August and told he had to leave her, and how she was arrested for possession of a stolen watch. If the story gets condensed to “Neal set Emma for jail and left her because he was a coward that didn’t love her” –that isn’t what I inferred from those scenes, it wasn’t what MRJ thought he was acting out, and it makes no sense that August had to be involved in that either. If they wanted to make Neal just a bad guy who used her, they could have made it just about the watches, not complicate matters with the curse. I think they did that to make the situation seem one way to Emma, but another to Neal and that creates the tragedy of it, that for me at least, set me up to root for them to fix it.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I would welcome that idea Happy Endings! Mal’s story was full of potential but they killed her off, but bringing a sister to get revenger for the curse and that is a logical result of what went before. It would let then get back to Auror’s truncated tale, maybe get flashbacks with Mal’s frenemy story with Regina. So much richness of previously dropped breadcrumbs that it feels like a story they planned rather than some weird out of left field plot veer of a sister that was never mentioned or hinted at.
Sweetgrass–Cora explicitly said any child she had would not be Rumples. This was not about Xavier expecting Cora to be untouched but Cora was not going to fulfill her bargain with Rumple because he could only claim a child he fathered by her under the changed deal. If he were the father, she would have to give him the baby and we know that didn’t happen.
That’s not to say Mal, & WW could not have been cousins to Regina, give them excuse to bring Rose back as young Cora with three girls playing together in the background or something while she and Rumple spar about something, maybe the Globe she gives him later, that he eventually uses to find Bae. Maybe Cora did something and put the blame on Aurora’s mother, and that’s why Mal cursed her in the first place, then went after Aurora?
Anyway, If they do this thing of Mal & Wicked being sister, it would restore some faith for me in the storytelling if they pick up all these dropped things going all the way back to Season 1 with Mal and Regina, who made the curse, S2 about Aurora’s story, the wraith and all this.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
So many good posts, and I loved reading RG’s “The Heck?” post.
I do think the casual viewer doesn’t really remember the bad things a character does if it is not brought up on screen that much. I think about other shows where they have villains “reform” and really all they need is to show the good guys are ok with treating the villain like an old pal and then viewers mostly do too. Especially if the former villain is helpful in some way, to offset the previous harm done–but it can tank a show if not done right. It’s a trope really just as much as a false fiance. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelFaceTurn
So I’m thinking the casual viewer finds these two guys more of a toss up because they simplify it that “well both did bad things, and both love her, oh who is she going to choose! ” And right now, they’ve staged all the scenes to play up J.Mo’s chemistry with Colin. I think she has great chemistry with MRJ, but if every scene they have together is Emma looking upset, sad and emotional but not in a joyous way, that does sort of create the impression for someone not paying close attention to context, that she doesn’t want him around.
We see the little moments, where she was sitting next to him on a log, or smiling at his reconciliation, or overcome with reflected grief for him over his father’s death. Yet the writers chose not to have any extended dialog where she’s openly admitting she wants him in her life. We take it as “She’s so scared she’s pushing him away, because she’s afraid of having happiness” but I definitely see why others see it as “She just doesn’t want him.”
I think those little clues still being in the story as Phee talked about suggest the writers haven’t scrapped SF at all, but wanted to please the fans wanting to see some CS and let it play out in a way that didn’t come out of nowhere for Emma. So they made Neal “die”, and put Emma in NL relying on Hook as a guide. They created this most contrived situation of the Echo Cave in order to have Hook admit he finally is over Milah because of Emma, while Emma admits to Neal this very emotional but almost contradictory thing–I’ll always love you but I’m not happy to see that you’re alive. A lot of people took it as she wished he was dead, but that’s not what she said. It’s easy to forget context, but they were in NL, a dangerous place with horrible memories for Neal. His son was kidnapped. He wasn’t at an end of suffering, he was about to endure so much more, and she might have to see that and go through the pain of losing him again. She said she didn’t think she could handle that.
Of course, the finale makes her experience just that, and Neal is able to reassure her, and hug her, but these sneaky writers, the have Hook be the one to show up at her door. I feel that’s more of the “it’s not so easy yet for the Happy Ending” thing, and fan pleasing all at once. No CS fan is going to accept opinions or interpretations from other fans just like no SF fan would–so as RG’s said many times–it sort of has to play out if the writers aren’t going to tank their ratings.
They have to take time to set up why Emma chooses whoever she does, and to really do that, we need to see her really being given the opportunity to have all the information the audience kind of does about these guys. I feel that means there’s a lot of positive things about Neal she never knew, and conversely, a lot of negative things about Hook that she seemingly pushed out of her mind, and also a number of incidents she never knew. So we have to wait to see what the writers decided happened in the missing year and how these guys conducted themselves.
Hook is a pirate, and I wonder–what if the reason he is in NYC is similar to why August became the guardian angel–a bit of maneuvering? Geppetto had the BF lie about the wardrobe, and that’s why Snow didn’t raise Emma, and it fell to August who was too young for it. Yet Geppetto acted out of love, not a petty motive to hurt everyone, even if it does seem selfish from Snow and Emma’s perspective. So what if Hook refuses to help in the dangerous situation they’re in, unless he gets to be the one to go ? That might be why Charming is holding Neal back. I could see Hook saying “You had your shot mate, and it is my turn now, but I will bring her back, for I am a man of honor, and I love her too.” I could see him steal the memory potion they make to take to Emma. They might even tell him there’s no way to break the memory curse without it, for example, Belle or BF should know it, even with true love, especially with the limited magic in NY where Emma is. So that would make CS fans happy because it establishes why Hooks kiss did nothing (which all we noncasual fans already know a kiss failing means nothing, only matters if it works) but in general, I don’t think a lot of them would find Hook acting piratey that way as off-putting, because it would be to them “See, he’s fighting for her, and he loves her, and look how Neal gives up.” Then for SF fans, it would be ok, Neal couldn’t go because of Hook being Hook, but come on “the heck”. When is he going to catch a break, and hopefully that happens when Emma sees the dreamcatcher and we get a realization from Emma that she’s still in love with Neal. Now she just has to get him, and then Hook has a realization as well that he’s been going about his happy ending the wrong way. Like Rumple and Regina, he has to give up what he thought it was all season long to find what it really is.”
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Slurpeez–yes! I see that in this story and I hope it plays out that way. I agree with Phee that s3 had many moments to suggest they were not wrapping up things between these two as a neat and tidy, she wants to move on. “Its not over” Neal said and I hope we get to see the writers continue to unspool more of the story that ties these two together.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
That was poetic, I see why they cast him as August the writer, and it is such a shame they de-aged August !
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
RG– I agree, they wanted to erase GOAT–and another LOST reference, they were “Nikki & Paolo’d”. On Lost they tried to introduce some side characters but they weren’t well received and they ended up more or less with a quick end to their storyline just like GOAT, rarely mentioned again.
I know I talked before about LOST too, that sometimes the actors didn’t want to stay or didn’t work out, and they adjusted story arcs around those things too. This happens and much as they did plan many, many things out like those easter egg numbers and all–there were many story lines that were dropped or hacked that jarred with later ideas. I watched it one summer, so those things really stood out sometimes.
I am half-afraid here that the fan pressure is just going to drive the story in a direction they didn’t originally intend. How can anyone say “it is all planned” for years, when they’ve said it was both “we write for the fans” and they have their own story? We know they break into story camps each season. So if they say something is planned–from what point? Years back, in their minds, or when the series was greenlit? Or maybe some things are plotted out in those Season to Season story camps, after getting some fan feedback. I’m absolutely positive GOAT going that fast was a decision made AFTER the S2 ended, not at the start of planning and plotting S2. Ruby’s “Child of the Moon” story with that symbol of the moon also seemed to hint at something else we never saw, perhaps leading into more Camelot.
On a separate note–someone pointed out that Emma has on Graham’s shoelace still. I’m not sure what to make of that. I think it was on her wrist when the new memories hit, so there’s some story in her mind of who’s shoelace it is, but it isn’t like she looked down and just couldn’t take it off for some mysterious reason. I really dont’ think they were “true love” simply because she didn’t really know the real him, his huntsman personality at all. All she knew was the version Regina created, and the other had only barely started to break free. Plus Emma only admitted to being in love once, and we know she was in love with Neal. He was, according to Adam and Eddy, the love of her life, plus in that episode she says that line and we flash to Neal and Emma. So I know it’s just one of those things that’s out there in people’s minds, that Graham was the only guy Emma ever loved and was her “first love” because it helps set up a “parallel” with Hook losing Milah–but I don’t think that’s what the writers were necessarily going for with that.
Supposedly they authorized the graphic novel which says Graham was in true love with Red (hah, the huntsman raised by wolves and a lady who turns into one…) but that wasn’t reflected at all on the show.
Sometimes I feel like the various writers on this show just aren’t on the same page at all, and it ends up creating some of the moments that confuse the fandom about what is going on.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Molly–I love that speculation idea ! I was hoping maybe Henry had pictures on his camera, and although we didn’t see them load up her bug, maybe they had time to throw a few things in it. He mentions having a camera in Manhattan when they are about to go to the museum. What if there’s a photo of a Neal on there? Though your idea of Neal finally drawing again, as in a sign of him finally having hope after the second meeting with Emma is really lovely. I bet the whole time he was with Emma the first time he half-knew disaster would strike, the the crazy Shadow would appear or something–and he got a wooden robot telling him to leave the woman he loves and steer clear for 10 years so she can break a curse. After meeting Henry and his father though, part of him maybe started to get over it. At some point he realized he had to stop running from that past and stand his ground, and I’d like it that (though it isn’t SF & Emma so much) Henry is what gives him the strength. Emma more or less found the same feeling eventually too.
I also agree it’s just a bit exaggerated to complain about Neal’s relationship with Tamara –but it’s like there’s this varying level of realism or fantasy people sort of expect for the behavior here. It’s not realistic we’ll say for this or that to happen, but then it’s not realistic for some other things. The whole show is a fantasy–and when you have a pirate in leather spouting lines straight out of classic movies, it does sort of play back into the fairy-tale and fantasy side. So perhaps people just don’t feel it has to be realistic–but then Neal in his ordinary clothes, with no established classic character, having spent time in “the real world” –he just has to be more realistic people think. I say there’s fantasy either way.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
The whole Pan/Rumple thing was not explained well–maybe if they’d totally ripped off Harry potter and said the Dark One’s dagger was a horcrux and that sustained Peter’s immortality–but it just didn’t all come together for me.
Yes, Rumple had no magic and part of the beauty of his choice was he realized he didn’t need it–but at the same time using the shadow and dagger sort of was using magic. So it undercuts it, but I guess it is part of him as he was turned into a magical creature and it was one last act to call it back and stab.
This thread is long and I’ve lost track of the unanswered questions we have here so far, and we had an earlier “pot holes” thread too that tackled some of the wonky things we’ve wondered about.
Maybe at some point over the hiatus we can create a version of the really unanswered things, and the things that seem like there’s no way to explain it even within the logical rules of magic (like continuity errors and stuff) (actual plot hole mistake).
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
