[kfchimera]

I need a lot more to go on for this one but I’m not sure what you mean by Neal like, Keb.  Do you think Hook left Tink for her own good in some way, maybe like pre-Milah?  If that were Tink’s “first mistake” (getting involved with a man), then maybe I could ship this.    I’m just hesitant to climb fully on board something like this other than sort of “what if” or in the past,  when I feel like the character’s hearts are in different directions (Tink to be a fairy and Hook wanting Emma) in the present day canon, without more about what draws them together.  Given that Emma’s true love is Henry, it doesn’t bother me too much if her “suitors” pair with someone else, because she has happiness now.  I don’t think “romantic love” is the be-all and end all for all characters, but I’m romantic–I’d be Teal fairy I think.   Like Blue, I would think sometimes its not a good idea, but like Tink I’d want characters to go for it anyway.    I’ll keep reading people’s thoughts though about this because it could sneak up on me !  In Disney canon I always felt bad for Tink with her crush on Peter, but I never really put her with Hook.

[kfchimera]

I just saw the same thing!  I don’t get why they didn’t show Blue and Tink ‘s showdown in the diner, especially given Blue’s shadowy death.

I’m surprised they put up a moment that horrible for CS, especially one that looks even worse out of context.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Source, and you have to see the whole set of pictures there!

This set of pictures, only copying two, makes a very good point.  Neal’s request for a date with Emma paralleled perfectly with how Eric asked Ariel to come sail away with him.  Neal of course was not asking for a commitment or anything huge, just a bit of time to talk with just the two of them, but still in a public place, in the middle of the day, where she could feel comfortable.   Maybe it is not the sweeping romantic gestures that Emma craves or that fans might in a story, but it feels more  heartfelt for all that.   Emma said she only had time for Henry, but on some level, she didn’t seem perfectly content with it.  She wants more, but she is afraid she’s not allowed to have it, not with this duty to be the savior hung on her.   She wont’ let that touch her duty as a mother to Henry but a personal romantic life?  She is thinking she cannot have it all.   So between her work, her child, and her parents, there just is not room (she thinks) to endure any pain and heartbreak that might lower her edge to protect and be there.

Ariel saved the day, but it did cost her (she thought) her chance with Eric but she then got a second one.  Emma might have thought saving (well not quite, RIP Blue! ) the day is  costing her the shot with Neal.   Yet if the parallel is something intentional on the part of the writers, perhaps it might be a small hint that Emma’s “second chance” is going to come?

I still feel that the writers would want to parallel any real SF reunion with Manhattan so I don’t expect much to happen until then.   At the same time, I really wonder if they’d leave the whole triangle thing open quite that way over the break?  I guess they would, they want to make sure people have incentive to watch after the break and get invested in another story (like Regina /Robin maybe?) before ending anything against fan expectations in this triangle.

 

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Phee wrote: Would it be too cliche to make an Oz character, (ie: a “friend of Dorothy”), a gay man? Tin Man, Scarecrow, and the Cowardly Lion could all potentially need some guidance from someone like Archie, which could potentially lead to more.

I don’t think it’s anymore cliche than having Archie be gay since he sorta fits the mold of the “token gay character.” If anyone was gonna turn out to be gay, and they were stereotyping, then it’d be the sweet sensitive bachelor. I want ONCE to subvert that trope though. I’d love for some big strong he-man to be the gay character. Like if they ever did Hercules, instead of having women fawn over him, his true love could be his trainer Phil (take out the half human/half goat thing).

I kind of agree with that.  They want to avoid being insensitive so if they do it, they need to really put the same care they put into other stories, but of course there’s a range as you go from 2 episode relationships like Ariel/Eric to something that played out a little bit more like Aurora/Mulan/Phillip.  I did like the idea of the Tin Man though since we are going to Oz and the whole thing is he doesn’t have a heart and it would just fit from there.  If it is with Archie though, the Tin Man has to have Perdita….

 

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

I love that one! Neal does have a lot of great qualities.   I’d add to it–can rock a cross bow, a staff or a sea-shell to summon a giant squid.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

What if it is another body switch, and the one saying “won’t I ever be free” is Rumple stuck in Pan’s body?  Rumple has two people he loves intensely, Belle and Neal, and that would give Pan lots of options for a heart to take.

The only thing is the hints that Rumple cannot kill Pan without dying himself.  I think we will get an explanation that the DO curse originated with the shadow in NL when it bound itself to Pan.  So to kill Pan somehow destroys the DO too.  Rumple defeats Pan by being willing to stab Pan ending his own life, he thinks.  I think however Rumple’s soul will go to where Phillips did, because of some loophole and that leads into that weird AU thing.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Word to that LunaTiger post–but for the part about Tink.  Tink’s brand of straight up no-nonsense might be good for Hook but I did not see why he would be good for her.  Especially if fairies truly cannot do their calling and have romantic love, given the SB curse analog pictured fairies as nuns.

Of course, maybe that was just how Blue saw it.  Funny side story, my now sister-in-law picked a historic Cathedral for her wedding to my husband’s brother, and I did not realize it was Episcopalian until talking to the priest and he mentioned his daughter.  I had a moment of “say what” since I was thinking of Catholic priests.  If Tink does take over as “head fairy” and has a different approach that fairies can balance their personal happiness with the duty to serve others, then that works for me.  I just want to know she gets to be a fairy again.

So a bit of another tangent, but I had a few SF thoughts seeing Frozen so I’m going to spoiler this out if you have not seen the movie.  It is an awesome movie, with funny scenes and beautiful visuals and music.

One of the plots is how Princess Ana gets engaged to someone she doesn’t really know and how that’s not true love. It isn’t even an issue in the least that she breaks up with that guy (well not in so many words  as he reveals to her he doesn’t love her so can’t kiss away the cursed ice magic, and then later on tries to kill her sister) and turns around and connects with  Christoph who supported her all along.  There’s a scene too where Olaf is saying to Ana too bad she doesn’t have anyone else who loves her like Christoph who loved her enough to leave her, then he sees him returning and says “Guess he didn’t love you enough to leave you.”

These are standard fairy-tale plot twists, the false fiance and having to leave the one you love to prove you love them or step aside.   Even if it makes one or  both unhappy, you don’t want the one you love to suffer because you’re together from some outside force.  Now that could be seen as what Hook meant to do with “backing off”, the way he did.   It also applies to Neal leaving originally, and how Emma and Neal might not give much thought to his feelings for Tamara. 

Why I don’t think Hook’s “backing off” had anything to do with what was best for Emma or Henry is the way Hook mentions that Neal left Emma once, and that he isn’t sure she’d let him back in.  The way he suggests he’s in it for the “long haul” and then turns around to proposition Tink and make Emma jealous with the “perhaps”.   If Hook only let Emma think he was pursuing Tink in order to help Neal out that would be one thing, but it did not come off that way.  He seemed to pursue Tink without knowing if Emma would see it rather than only pretending to do that to make sure she knew he was not interested in her to help out Neal.

The writers could have  had Hook say to Tink, no I am not alright.  He could have asked for her help as he truly loves Emma, but also genuinely values Neal as a friend, and he wants to help Neal have a fair shot with Emma. For that to happen, for him to feel he’s sort of taken his offer to pursue Emma off the table, he needs to convince Emma he’s interested in someone else.  Then Tink and Hook together would put on an act for a moment, and we’d all see that Hook was really trying sincerely to help get SF together even as it breaks his own heart.

That is NOT what we got.  If Tink fell for Hook because she could see how much he cared, both for Emma and Neal, then I could get on board with CaptainFairy even if it were the case Hook starts off in love with another woman, even if it might get in the way of her goal to be a fairy and get wings. It might even have swayed me to CS, because now it truly would not be Hook “stealing” Neal’s family and not caring.  He would care but it is just a cruel twist of fate for Neal (just like Snow seeing her greatest enemy raising her grandson when she and her daughter miss out on being a parent/having a parent for so long).  Messed up stuff happens in this show.

Regina really does love Henry now, but more important, he loves her. So whether or not she “deserves” to be a mother–she is one.  Emma and Snow will always have to make peace with it, and it may be that Neal has to do the same in regards to Hook being in Emma and Henry’s life.

The thing is,  Emma’s reaction to the “perhaps” did not come off to me as really jealous or heartbroken but more like “Seriously?”  Her kiss with Hook she called out as meaningless, and the dialog felt that way too.  “You couldn’t handle it”.  That is the same phrase Rumple used when baiting Cinderella to make a deal.

Rumpelstiltskin: Then change it. You can’t handle this.

(Rumpelstiltskin turns to leave.)

Cinderella: Wait. Please, wait. I can handle it. Please. I will do anything to get out of here. Anything.

This was Rumple manipulating a desperate soul for his own ends.  I don’t agree that Hook manipulated Emma so openly here, as she did not have much to gain out of kissing him in quite that way.  He did hide the fact that her father wasn’t really “saved” and did hint for more than just a handshake and heartfelt thanks.  Yet he didn’t force her to the extent of saying he would not continue helping them or anything like that.  So one can argue he was just being flirty, not expecting she’d take him up on it, perhaps even doing it so she would stop asking questions to protect the secret as David asked.  I don’t think so, as I thought Hook had that exact scenario in mind when he set out to save David.

In any case, she isn’t even sure why she did it, she says, because she says she didn’t know, and was feeling good and had been awhile.  Hook on the other hand, wanted to kiss her because he wanted to kiss her, then he realized just how deeply that affected him.

So I don’t think he was being as crassly piratey with Emma as he was in the scene with Tink.  I do think however there is something to Hook sometimes pretending to feel something, then actually ending up feeling it as a character trait.

He did that with Bae.  He pretended to care for the boy in order to manipulate his emotions into revealing the secret to killing the Dark One.  Then he sort of “fell” for Bae as a son-figure.  He genuinely wanted to be a family with him, up until Bae rejected him for having lied and generally being the one who (in Bae’s opinion) “tore his family apart”.  I do think Rumple and Milah’s situation was a bit more complicated than it being entirely Hook’s fault, but all the same, Hook responded to Bae’s rejection horribly.  So it belies whatever genuine emotion he might have felt a bit earlier and is why I feel so let down by the writing.

Does Hook want revenge on Bae or is he really just conflicted about how this is all playing out, in a situation he would never have wanted? The way Hook acted at the Echo Cave made me think that a little.  After all, if his secret was that that the kiss revealed to him he could move on from Milah because of Emma, that would mean he never wanted to tell that to Emma.  He didn’t want to have that be true.  So that’s genuine internal conflict, not nasty pirate who doesn’t care if he’s hurting the boy he once cared about or even deliberately setting out to hurt him.

Then we go to pirate lurking on their conversation, so it seems more like nasty pirate, then coupled with his words about a “dalliance”.  Again, maybe Neal overreacted, assuming that Hook was needling him when Hook was trying to be serious (but perhaps putting it the wrong way).

I’m just doubtful with all the “Hook the Hero” theme that the writers actually intended Hook to seem manipulative, even though that is how I’m inclined to interpret his scenes with Neal.  Instead, maybe they think they’re writing Hook as believably showing a pirate’s version of honor, stepping back, saving his friend, but conflicted out of a genuine romantic connection to Emma.  Meanwhile she’s conflicted as she doesn’t want to hurt Neal but she just doesn’t want him because she’s fallen for Hook.

It could be the story, but it is not one that appeals to me right now as I do not have as much sympathy for Hook or conviction that he will make Emma happy when he acts so juvenile and sullen about not getting her attention. Emma needs someone who can understand her walls and the pressure on her,even if she were not the savior, she’d still be a mother with a very difficult co-parenting situation.    I’m just not sure they’ve written Hook as the kind of guy to “get” that given his history with Milah.

Even if it came from Milah to run off that way, the fact is, he is the one who told Rumple to tell his son his father was a coward.  That is how little Hook cared about the effect on Milah’s son.  Now backing for Henry’s sake could show growth but as Phee said , saying in the same scene that he’s stepping back for Henry but then implying Neal doesn’t really have a chance, just rubbed me the wrong way.

 

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

I agree with that Phee, and RG. Snow and David are not trying to push Emma toward Neal because of any dislike or misunderstanding of Hook’s nature. They were willing to praise Regina so we can see Charmings are “credit where it is due” kind of good people (despite all the people so ready to lambast them all the time!). They just happen to think Emma herself is still in love with Neal, but too afraid to let her guard down and be happy. Maybe they are really fairy-tale clueless about what would really make Emma happy or maybe they’re reading her better than she’s reading herself right now. I tend to think the latter because the show took the time to create sympathy for Neal by showing him alone in the booth. We didn’t just cut to Hook’s reactions about the “date”. This was not a scene that played out to drive how Hook feels about Emma, and his jealousy. Nor was the one with Tink that way, or we would have just scene Tink and Hook standing together with him saying “perhaps” with nothing really having happened. Instead we saw Hook seriously proposition Tink. Tink is being friendly and sympathetic with Hook and turn to leave, and he puts his Hook on her shoulder to draw her back. The whole thing really had the Season 2 Hook vibe to it, as if the minute Emma’s back is turned his normal pirate self pops right back out.

About that promo, Emma looks emotional but not especially happy. So who knows, the way they’ve spoiled anything and all things CS this season I wonder if it was so fast because that’s all they had to work with for the promo before it is obvious Emma’s expression is not melting and declaring that she has feelings for Hook. .

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

I wonder if Smee fits in with Dr. and Nurse, but I really don’t see how as Smee was caught up in the curse.  Smee could have been a plant by Pan though all those years ago, with his tale of wanting to turn back the clock (wow, how that must have bothered Rumple to hear of a guy wanting to do what his father had done, further putting him a bad mood when he notices the man who ran off with his wife).

So maybe they just run into Smee?    I agree he could get transformed back to human, perhaps Rumple thinks he might be useful in some way to find the shadow?

I don’t know!

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

I think Pan wants to use the curse to make his new NL as some have suggested, because he gets his “ageless” effect that way.   I agree he thinks he can take Felix’s heart and enact the curse, but it won’t work.  Then I think Pan will swap places with Rumple’s body and try to take Rumple’s heart to kill him for the curse, when he realizes that Rumple is the one he loves most.  It doesn’t say you have to love them well, just of all the things Peter loves other than himself, Rumple does have some kind of place in his heart.  Of course, with Rumple’s status as the Dark One and his shadow missing, I think there will be a loop hole that lets Rumple live despite having had his heart be taken and Pan trying to cast the curse from Rumple’s body.

Of course, doing something with this curse triggers something that sets up the next big threat to come in…

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

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