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The writing on CaptainFire has been beyond horrible. It does not help either that there are so many unknowns there–does Neal want to be friends with Hook, the thing with Emma aside? Did Hook ever try to save him from Pan? Does Neal feel Hook was genuine before about being sentimental and it is just this unfortunate coincidence that Hook fell in love with the woman Neal loves?
Yes, Neal left Emma 10 years before, got engaged to another, and was thought dead for all of an hour before Hook decided to put the full court press on Emma. The thing for me though is Hook did not put Emma before revenge until he learned Bae was dead. Even then, he had to think about it long enough that his return almost was pointless. Did Hook even have any qualms about going for Milah’s grandson’s mother? It is not biologically incest of course but it is a bit of a crossed line, especially once Hook knows Nealfire is alive and wants to reunite with Emma. If Hook cares nothing for Bae, if their friendship that he claimed is so meaningless, then sure talk about neither “owing” each other. Hook was the one who tried to say it though (mainly to get headway with Emma it seems now, rather than genuine concern for Neal).
The way their scene went down, it felt more like Hook manipulating Neal than not. We see Hook staring at Emma, she turns and does not even notice him. It is not that she is avoiding him–they show her eye movements as sort of sweeping past in a general way. Then Hook turns around for more drinks. Then Neal swoops in with almost genuine friendless towards Hook–are they all just so elated to be home and safe? DId they have a conversation on the boat, that was a deleted scene with the robe?
I don’t know as it all does not add up because on the one hand, we have Colin in interviews saying Hook is genuine and then on screen we see a lot of passive agressive behavior, snarky and sassy comments, and things that in context might be attempts to undermine Neal’s self-confidence. Those who love Hook, and want to defend him at all costs will say no, from Hook’s POV he is just trying to make the best of a bad situation, caught between wanting to be fair to Neal but really irretrievably heartbroken and in love with Emma. It just doesn’t come off that way to me, because we have had so few CaptainFire moments that were NOT about Emma.
If I’m to buy this concern for Neal, then I need to see Hook genuinely trying to connect with Neal about something other than Emma and how Neal reacts to Emma. When they talk about anything else, what we have is action sequences of them going to get the coconut and it happens off-screen. So it makes me feel like the concern isn’t genuine, that there is no internal conflict in Hook but it is really just his inner wheels turning on how to get an advantage with Emma one way or the other.
[adrotate group="5"]“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
The doctor and nurse from Henry’s birth are back….
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Hi all, I’m Ems. I’ve been lurking reading all your wonderful thoughts and decided to post and join in the Swanfire discussion.
Welcome! Always awesome to get another point of view and perspective and you said a lot of things that I definitely think are worth repeating.
But the reality of how things actually happened wasn’t as bad for SF as I had been anticipating. I knew the second that Neal approached Emma that it could be seeing as him being too full on. But Neal came just asking to talk, it was Emma that jokingly brought up the date part. And really who can say Emma and Neal don’t need to talk. A lot of stuff about their feelings and past came up in Neverland and even if they never moved forward again romantically, conversations need to be had so they can move forward them a way that allows them to get along and be co-parents to Henry. I liked how casual Neal was about it and didn’t pressure Emma into it. Emma’s smile was adorable too, like she didn’t want to smile but couldn’t help herself.
I bolded the part that especially struck me, as I did not catch that before. You are right! She did the same with August actually back when she was giving him flirty looks. Whatever the writers want to say about how August and Emma felt like siblings, that is not the way it came off on their well “date”. Neal really is in a tough spot. Emma wants to feel wanted of course but at the same time, she protects herself and puts up walls. They do need to talk, even if it is just about mundane things like his moving to SB and being in her life more, or even how he survived and met Aurora and Mulan and they say “hi”.
Neal gets a lot of hate for leaving Emma/not fighting for her etc etc. But as a certain point he can’t continue to force his romantic feelings on to Emma. …Right now Emma doesn’t believe she’ll ever have happiness without something lurking to ruin it all but when she accepts the idea of enjoying the moment, I think she will have to take the lead with Neal.
I think that is fitting really with the strong female character who is not the damsel or prize to be won–she should fight for her man just as much as he is willing to fight for her. If the audience is to buy the love story, then it has to bewant Emma wants. It cannot be Hook or Neal “winning” her heart–it has to be Emma discovering what she wants and going for it, taking the chance for happiness.I really do not feel her scenes with Hook have been about Emma taking that chance for happiness but rather, returning to her roots of one night unhealthy relationships not based on mutual trust but just physical attraction. Hook may want more, may think he does anyway with his long haul statements, but he is not emotionally mature enough to offer that to Emma. The truth is, Hook is very juvenile in his approach as shown by his claims of friendship to Bae but inability to express that. Even when Hook appears to be doing a decent thing like “backing off” he says it is for the boy, implying the only reason Neal and Emma should get a chance is they have a child, then further implying that Neal does not have much of a chance since he left Emma once. That is very similar to what Pan said to Emma about Henry–and we saw that real Henry did not have doubts, still knew that the reason Emma could connect to him was when he could understand why she gave him up.I feel that is foreshadowing what has to happen with Neal and Emma. They can only really reconnect when Emma can understand fully what happened in the past, when Neal left (and the audience needs to see it too). That he really was trying to give her the best chance he could–and while he did not come back the instant the curse broke, he did that frm a very human place of doubting himself more than lack of faith or love for her. Emma is going through that now, with her doubt that she can be allowed to be happy, that it is not her fate.I agree RIP captainfire, and also I think CaptainFairy–I was not on board it but it is harder for me at this time to see Hook with anyone. Even Regina does not work in the “they are both villains” way because her emotional growth, while still far from over, is leaps and bounds ahead of his. She still puts up walls and assumes the worst of others but we saw her have a moment of real friendship for Tink–something Hook did not. Hook treated Tink like something to use to make himself feel better. Tink wants to be a fairy again. She cares about believing in herself but also the good opinion of Blue and others and Hook cared more about his own romance than consideration for her. Whether that was making Emma jealous or even if you spin his words outside the Inn as his way of showing Emma he had backed off, the fact is he did not consider Tink. I hope Emma picked up on that. It was Jello part two, but worse since he actually knew Tink considered a tryst with him beneath her dignity.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I could see it going either way.
Yes, killing an iconic good character like Blue gives more moral weight to kill Pan to our heroes. Yet they already had reason to judge him for trying to kill them (dreamshade tipped poison, threats, ripping out Henry’s heart) and kidnapping. He did also kill Greg (same way) and Tamara (she was shot with the poison arrow, though Rumple actually killed her) and give the orders for them to activate the fail-safe–so attempted genocide. Plus he apparently kept children prisoner for hundreds of years. Do they really need a final straw here? I do not think so.
Cora did not kill any of their “friends” other than newly introduced JoHanna and they killed off Cora. Regina killed Graham and is on redemption road. I do not think therefore that they need to approach it like Star Trek to establish danger there must be death–there are worse fates as they said on Wonderland.
Maguffin usually means a contrived prize that motivates the characters,like the golden compass to go find it and achieve some end. Blue has not been developed well but she is rarely the reason the way Henry is written, or how Bae was written in season 1/2. She has never been a goal herself.
Instead she is in that odd space of being described as powerful and sometimes actually having power but then other times being ineffectual. I think in a lot of ways her part of the story is done, so she is an easy character for them to eliminate to create the heightened danger/moral authority but not so dear as to lose fans who only watch or mainly watch for that character.
Ratings need improvement. Shock deaths are no good if they ruin the feel of the show to where it is too dark as this is NOT the dark fantasy to horror genre. Yes it has had moments teasing along the line but it settled on the Disney feel good not disturbed side (for the most part).
So Blue dying is disturbing but not so hard to take as they made her less sympathetic with Tink, and made Tink very sympathetic.
Still PP’s story traditionally does have a fairy die in the play version, but she revives with belief. In the book it is implied she dies anyway as fairies have short life spans.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
They missed a comedy opportunity, with all those things Pan and Felix and all the other lost boys don’t know about the modern world. Door knobs? Light switches? Faucets? Maybe someone who thought about it would figure out what a toilet is for, and how it works, but he wouldn’t be expecting it to roar like a lion when flushed. Who wouldn’t be startled in a situation like that?
lol–they should have done some of that instead of the flashbacks.
LIKES:
Pan/Henry swap–both actors did good with it
Snow giving Regina credit
Daddy Charming
Neal trying to walk the line between pushing Emma too fast or coming off as not interested enough. Emma says she’s a magnet for bad things, but Neal can definitely commiserate with her on that.
Tinkerbell shutting down Hook’s attempts to treat her like his flask of rum.
Regina standing up for Tink against Blue.
Regina immediately assuming Emma was trying to make stuff up–because that was in character for Regina . I also liked seeing how she handled finding out she WAS wrong and Emma was right–it showed character growth. Finally, progression done right. She realized she’d been desperate for Henry’s love and therefore, believed what she wanted and ignored Emma’s warnings.
Rumbelle reunion…swoon and melt.
The Snowing honeymoon was cute, aside from CGI.
Dislike:
Blue dying! Nooooo, that was a shocker.
Hook implying that something happened anyway between him and Tink–so much for respecting a lady’s dignity and reputation. Tink already TOLD Hook that was how she felt, so put aside what Emma might or might not think and why Hook did it in terms of his feelings for Emma.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I guess it was too hard for either actor to mimic a natural sounding accent of the other guy, too bad, it would have helped sell it much more. I think they did ok too (but still wanted an eyebrow raise out of Gilmore….I think Kay did good NOT raising his eyebrows).
As to the CGI–uncanny valley, what are you going to do? All CGI has that problem with humanoids so on their budget it is not bad what they get I suppose.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I hope she isn’t dead, but I fear she may be. Poor Keegan! Greg was “rotting,dead….” as Adam tweeted. The only saving grace is that maybe there’s a miracle for a fairy who was the original power ?
On the other hand, maybe they are killing Blue in order to make room for Green aka Tinkerbelle to sort of become the head plot device …er fairy. Since she’d be “new” they could excuse all kinds of things.
I hope she is not dead because I feel like we needed Sneaky Fairy!
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I too have many scattered thoughts now.
First–did I miss something or was there no explanation for Wendy having the robe? SOmetimes my DVR eats the first few minutes but it felt like suddenly Hook and Neal were sort-of getting along. Was it just the “I’ll back off” speech in the diner?
Now I could see someone trying to argue that Hook being in pain, trying to hook up with Tink, making Emma think he was with Tink was his way of trying to back off–but that is a huge stretch for me. A more fair way of “backing off” and no mind games and being in it for the “long haul” would be to go to Emma, tell her she needs to deal with Neal, and he’ll be waiting. If Hook truly had love for Emma, that is what he would do–talk WITH her, not at her. Hook’s been talking at Emma a lot, telling her what he feels, what he wants to know, but he really hasn’t picked up on her hesitancy and fears. I think Neal might if Emma would give him a bit more time, but she is scared to let her guard down, and in some ways, Neal breaks through her defenses.
So it is hard for Emma to be around him and just be “Emma” when she thinks she has to be “Savior.” I loved how you put that Ranisha. The show paralleled Snow and David remembering a time when she was scared to relax and enjoy happiness, and outright, Snow and David made the comparison to Emma with Neal.
David didn’t even really say much about Hook. It’s not pushing away Hook because they misunderstand him, or think he’s awful in a “Papa don’t Preach” –or Mo French sort of way. He didn’t even dignify Emma’s question about keeping her away from Hook with more than a joke. If Emma wants to waste her time on Hook, David knows she’s a grown woman and will have to figure it out herself.
It may take a frustrating amount of time, but then, that’s TV drama. We see so many things Emma does not see, and obviously some of it is frustrating as there are things she sees/hears apparently that we don’t!
Hook didn’t seem in “whitewash” Hero Mode anymore today though. Pointing out that Neal walked out on Emma once (and really what does he know about it?) was not really a “friendly” thing to say. I’ve seen a lot of shows where two friends want the same girl, and it’s more of a “I love her, so don’t break her heart,” not, “Well she probably won’t want you since you messed it up once, and when she figures that out, well what woman wouldn’t want me?” It’s a shade in the “Did you honestly think she’d want someone like you, when she could have someone like me?” speech Gaston makes to the beast.
Then there was the moment with Tink. Asking for a little “dalliance” is one thing, both adults and Hook isn’t with Emma (but so much for the chaste pirate pining for his love). What really bothered me is the scene outside the Inn when Emma arrived. Let’s put aside the childishness of trying to make someone jealous but consider it was rude to Tink especially after what she’d said, first that she knew he was hung up on Emma, and second it was a matter of dignity to her. It shows one thing I was wondering about–how does Hook treat people other than Emma? Has he really changed? It would seem, not so much. He puts on an act for Emma.Finally, Neal was NOT pushy. There’s a certain amount of wooing and pursuit Neal has to do because the truth is, Emma will respond to being wanted and pursued. Hook does it, so if Neal is way too passive it makes him look like he doesn’t care, especially in comparison. Now I feel Hook came on WAY too strong, and if his “backing off” meant anything, it was probably more a realization that he better do that or Emma would push Hook further away. I don’t know if Hook genuinely said to Neal what he did because of Neal. All the same, Neal really didn’t push too hard.He started off asking to talk, and the “lunch” was really no pressure. It wasn’t choose me or I’m done, but it was I’ll understand and stop putting pressure on you romantically if you do not come. Of course, maybe Neal set it up that way, in part because of doubt planted by Hook that Emma doesn’t want to let him back in. Neal wouldn’t want to push Emma if that truly is how she feels–he already told her if all they have from their former relationship is Henry, then they did alright. I have a feeling Emma is going to get stuck somehow with Hook, and things will progress a little more, until she realizes “What am I doing?” Then she will have to go after Neal. Neal will just assume she’s chosen to be with Hook, and he’ll accept it because he loves her and wants her to be happy. He won’t make a big fuss, even though it is an extra twist of the knife of fate right in his gut.Small steps I suppose, but tonight, we saw again the theme that Emma is scared to open herself to happiness and that’s really why she resists Neal, because she is scared something else will happen and she’d lose that happiness again (not because he would leave her or do something, but because fate).
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
At that point Cora had only gone from EF to Wl and back, so it sort of implied she’d been through other places but I suppose not necessarily. She had not yet come to “our” world.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
So what if she came to town because she used the shoes to get away from her world ,and wasn’t affected by the curse,but was stuck outside SB & her world, wanting to get revenge on Regina for the curse?
We haven’t really explored that yet, because so far all the evil’s we’ve seen had other goals, and we haven’t seen some really equally powerful baddie say “TIME FOR PAYBACK,” which you totally know someone like the WWW would.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
