[kfchimera]

Looks like a joyous occasion! One by one, they disembark, hugs and cheers, kisses and tears. But I fear heartbreak for Regina. Who will welcome her home with hugs and kisses. I think Regina will feel left out again.

Especially as Henry really isn’t Henry!  Well…sad to say it, but she is still the person who defined her happiness as others suffering, and so while I agree it will make her sad, it doesn’t make me feel sad for her.  She sort of needs to dig herself out of her own mess, and if she keeps telling herself everything is the Charming’s fault that they just get glory and she just gets blame, as if her actions had nothing to do with it, then she’s made no progress.
Tink and the boys have no one really (cause I think Blue will have the unwelcome mat for Tink out).   So I’d like to see Regina show some growth and be there for them instead of worrying about herself.   Instead, she’ll probably be off to the side glowering at the Charmings, but I can hope that’s not the case for more than a moment.  Her mansion would be an awesome big house for the boys (if she’s truly grown enough to have compassion for others).

[kfchimera]

I read that post and found it made a false distinction between Regret and Remorse.  Its an interesting concept but the two emotions are NOT mutually exclusive as implied.

Here is the Dictionary.com on it:

What is the difference between regret and remorse?

Regret describes emotions ranging from being disappointed to intense sorrow due mainly to an external circumstance or event. An example is: She regrets that the television show has been canceled. One can also regret a wrong done, as in: He regrets his mistakes. Remorse describes deep regret, involving anguish or guilt and self-reproach or repentance. Remorse is felt by someone for a sin or wrong they have committed. So: He felt remorse for lying to the teacher. Remorse is from the Latin remordere ‘to bite again’ – as remorse is a gnawing feeling of guilt from a past wrong. Regret is from the French regreter/regrater and originally was a synonym for regrate meaning ‘complaint, lament’.

The way I see it, Remorse expands upon regret to encompass personal guilt for what one might regret.   So it is not that Regina has no regrets, because she has matured beyond it, to the point of feeling only remorse.  That seemed to be what the person was implying I thought.

I look at how Regina felt to be that Henry was worth whatever pain she suffered, so she doesn’t regret any of it.  Sort of like Grumpy, or if you’ve ever seen Cars II, Tow Mater likes his dents.  All that pain also meant good experiences so no, he has no regrets.

So I don’t think Regina lacking regrets means she has moved on to remorse and accepted her personal guilt for her actions.  I doubt she even feels it about Henry Sr., but maybe.  It was a bit ambiguous.  The fact is,   her speech in the caves at the fail safe  may have indicated some conscience stirring,  but she also was concerned with how others saw her.  So I think she is still very much motivated by her own concerns.  After all the last time we saw her asked to speak of regrets it was that she did not cause more pain.

At Henry Sr.’s grave, Regina thanks him but he is dead.  So I don’t think appreciation of his sacrifice constitutes remorse that she took his life.  There’s no I’m sorry said, no wish expressed that he could be there in her life and that she’d listened and found another way.  She’s appreciative because now she has what she wants (she thinks).  She thinks she’s “won”.  Despite this sort of being about doing what was best for Henry, keeping him despite knowing the risk that the savior would come to find her child, I see it as Regina refusing to back down.   She’d bonded with Henry and he’s her child, and no one is taking that from her.   She keeps up with that line of thought, protecting what is hers.

Yet at the same time, what happens when it comes to sharing Henry’s love with others? We see years later she struggles greatly with this.  She has learned a lot in NL, but we’ll have to see if it is enough long-term to share Henry with Emma and the Charmings, the Stilskins.

She did not change her mind because she knew Pan was out there, because she knew she had to save Henry from a bad fate.   If they’d written it that way, well she would have looked very heroic but that isn’t what they did.

So it came off a bit ambiguous to me.  She knew she felt conflicted about who Henry really was, and so she took a potion to forget it rather than accept and let go her anger at Snow.  She held onto her vendettas, so it could come off like she was not wanting to back down to Rumple’s game.  She would play it and beat him at it.  That’s not to say she didn’t try to love Henry too, but as we saw with Owen (so glad they name checked that rather than sweeping under rug completely), Regina is capable of forming a genuine attachment that is very unhealthy for the person she feels warmly towards.

So one last set of thoughts about that linked post.  The writer brought up Snow being selfish with her Echo Cave confession.  First, Snow  had to say something she would never otherwise reveal.  So let’s not forget the context of Snow expressing this very private emotion.

Snow was not “selfish” in the way of being someone who never thinks of others (like Regina often is).  Snow listened with great empathy to Emma when Emma talked of her experience having no mother.  Snow probably does have remorse over that, except to the extent, it really wasn’t something within her control.  Why should she regret saving her child’s life? This episode clarified it was either wardrobe or death pretty much as the Queen’s guards were there to kill the Savior.   Regina confirms she’ll try to kill the savior on her to do list in the scene this episode with Rumple.  After the curse is cast, of course, that is when killing the savior would break the curse but Gold didn’t tell Regina that until later on.  That was why Regina needed Jefferson to get the curse-sleep apple, if you recall.

So anyway, Snow and Emma have things they regret, but it doesn’t mean they are selfish and not quite to the point of feeling guilt and empathy over the pain they caused (however inadvertently) from the choices they made.    They were both in a rock and a hard place, something Regina actually was not when she decided to cast the curse.  She felt as though she were, but everyone from her own father, to Maleficient told her that was not a real solution.   Then she found out they were right, and that was what motivated her to get a child, and it is every bit as “selfish” in the same sense as MM speaking to wanting another child to raise to have that experience.  Except MM isn’t trying to just fill a void in her life, to get an experience she wants to have–she also has a lot of love to give like most normal people, she could easily love another child AND Emma.  She’s not just wanting the child to fulfill her needs, as we’ve seen with Emma, she is the type of mother who would put her child first and has for Emma before.

What happened in NL though is Emma pushed Snow away as a mother.  So no one really goes into how that might have hurt Snow.  We’re all waxing on about Emma, even though these ladies are the same age!  Snow has to be more mature as she’s the mother, and she tries.  She doesn’t tell her sob story to Emma.  She could have, but she doesn’t. She just listens and tries to reassure Emma.  Yet her confidence weakens as she realizes she doesn’t know how to comfort Emma.

So by the time they get to the cave, Snow’s secret is being said from a place of honesty. Emma doesn’t see her as a mother, and she didn’t get to be one, and she wants to be one.  So let’s not act like that’s Snow suddenly discarding Emma at all because she wasn’t.  Let’s not forget  the first time she was in a rock /hard place to choose Charming or Emma, she was going to pick daughter.  She would have gone in the cabinet to the new world, pregnant and alone.  She was willing to do that, but Emma came early and forced the decision we saw.   Yes, Snow insisted the put the baby in, but she believed if they didn’t it would be worse (and she was right).

Anyway, Snow did what she could and what she feels regret is that it turned out that way, just as is true for Emma.  That they have regrets doesn’t make them selfish, doesn’t mean they don’t feel remorse for some things (Emma might for stealing).   These are not mutually exclusive concepts.

All we really know is, Regina’s regrets/remorse, whatever you want to term it, mattered very little to her versus the love she has for Henry.  I do think she loves him, and with all she has, but what we have yet to see is whether she has yet refined that concept of love to something less possessive and more truly in line with what is best for him.  (Because raising him in that town was not it!).

 

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Cute pictures!

RG, I don’t think it is necessarily back sliding, for Hook to be sarcastic, but when he wants, we have seen him outright  demean someone.  So  I feel he did not go that far in his remarks to Neal.

He didn’t understand the coconut in a shadow thing, and frankly, its not like Neal explained it (and who would have thought, Shadow-stretched to sail-size!).  So I took it more as Hook being a bit peeved he had no clue of exactly how this was going to work and being asked to just fall in line, trust his ship and life to someone else.  People used to being in charge like a Captain would find that a bit unnerving, and then there’s the question of why Neal didn’t tell him the details.  Is it because Neal didn’t have time or did not want to trust him with the details?  Whatever is true, Hook might still have thought he was not being trusted and felt annoyed about that too, even though that lack of trust, if that was what it was rather than time, were justified, especially after the lighter incident.

All the same, I do think Hook felt unhappy about Emma and Neal talking and working well.  That doesn’t mean he’s all the way ready to bust out the pirate tricks and regress, but he’s human and he gets annoyed, jealous and snarky.   He’s still helping the team and he did look genuinely happy about Henry being saved.  Of course, maybe a Pan deal might look better now but I still think Hook sticks around so won’t sell them out so badly they would King George him.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Pasta probably on the wall –think you’re right it is the loft.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Is it the honeymoon after the big wedding, or maybe one after the secret one ? They got married twice.

Medusa sounds good too –perhaps it will parallel how they plan to stop Pan this time around maybe.

So it fails on Regina, but it’ll be their pocket convenient way of gaining an advantage this time maybe?

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

I agree Ranisha!  Whether or not Hook questions if being good makes him happy yet or not, his idea of how to treat people is still shaped by his underlying personality that we saw a glimpse of when he was Killian Jones, dressing down the men.

Unless we see him betray the group outright again, I will assume he’s just operating as he’s said, sight set on Emma, mode set on impress her.  For all his claims of friendship for Neal, we have yet to see much evidence of it and neither has Emma, other than that he told the secret (but then, Neal did know the way off the island!).

I thought of something shippy too–when Charming says “In case your good looks fail you”–is that a sign Charming thinks that might happen to Hook, or Hook’s sudden downcast look a sign that Hook is thinking that very well might happen? It is a scene that happens shortly after Emma looked impressed that Neal would get in his father’s face to demand Gold do the favor of saving Charming’s life because it is the right thing to do.   So perhaps Charming is thinking Neal’s character speaks volumes, and while Hook may be handsome, that doesn’t go all that far with Emma.  I know shippy reasoning at its silliest, but that is what a ship thread is meant for doing right?

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Slurpeez, that’s excellent! I do think though that its a tash harsh on Hook as he did try to get along with the Charmings, so I am not sure Hook has tried to separate her or undermine her relation with anyone but Neal ( but that was a one step back after a step forward by sharing the secret with the Charmings that Neal was alive thing).

Hook is complicated, but those complications do mean he’s not all sweetness nor all selfishness and spite.  What happens is some fans overpraise his good moments with the low bar of expectations for a pirate, but he is not a gentleman just for not  being a cad.  He can still be a jerk who is only nice to those who have something he wants, even if he is genuinely nice or mostly nice to them.  The test of his change is how does he treat people when Emma is not there to see ?

 

 

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

What if this is how they first met blue fairy for real?

We know as a girl that Snow thought she met her, but actually did not. Then later on of course she is “air support” because grumpy is owed a favor, and is actively involved in their campaign council pre-curse, helping them trap Rumple etc.

Unless they’re trying to get squid ink too.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

My guess is that for some reason Emma and that lot want to question the Pan in the box and in order to prevent him from using any magic they free him from the box on the town border only to discover the switch. I wonder if Emma will be able to take a leap of faith and believe that the switch happened.

The “Leap of Faith” theme I think is played out already.  Emma’s dive off the boat marked the start of getting people to work together under her leadership, then her conversation with Charming was the evaluation of what she had accomplished.

I’m not saying she won’t be tested again because of course that’s the substance of such a story! I just think that particular motif may be done, though of course things do recur.   I am just not sure it is going to apply exactly to her scene with Henry in Pan’s body.   I think Henry is going to have to tell her something only Henry would know, and that it will convince her.    So it is no longer about being willing to believe and take risks, but rather, in this particular instance, how well does she know her son?

On another thing you said Storyteller, about whether Rumpel underestimates Regina? I think Pan definitely did, but Rumple looked proud of her.  I think they all underestimate each other at times. That is why it is an ensemble story, where the focus might shift from one character to another depending on the particular episode.

 

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

angiebelle wrote: I thought Pandora’s box was a fate worse than death! Rumple did not seem to be affected by it at all. He was even in the same pose. What happened to all the world’s evils?

Agreed. I thought it would affect him somehow. And while I loved the whole scene with him and Neal, I expected the box to have done SOMETHING to him, else what exactly was the point of having Pan in there?

It was not a fate worse than death, but rather a fate that did not involve death, so that Rumple would not have to die as for some unexplained reason neither can die while the other lives shades of Harry Potter.  I think it may be that the Dark One powers come from NL.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

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