[Captain Eala]

I don’t defend Neal very often but he does realize from the premiere that he did hurt Emma. The thing that always got me, whenever Emma tried to express to him how hurt she was, he laughed at it or brushed it off like her feelings didn’t mean anything. That’s why I loved Emma’s epiphany speech from Nasty Habits because it’s the first time, she’s able to openly acknowledge how much Neal’s leaving hurt her. And girl, she didn’t hold anything back.

Oh yes, I think he realises he hurt her, but I don’t think he realises the depths to which he did. He abandoned her, left her thinking she was unloveable for over a decade, she gave up her son because he wasn’t around to look after him and she was in jail. After he gave her the keys to the bug, he gave her hope that he was going to be waiting for her in Tallahassee, their dream. He doesn’t know all of the consequences his actions had on Emma yet. But I have hope that he will soon, since we know that “truths about Hook and Neal will be made public”. I cannot wait for that, because he never really considered her feelings beyond how he “broke her heart” but it was a HECK of a lot more than just that.

One thing I would be really disappointed with is if the writers don’t deal with the effect Tamara’s betrayal had on him. A+E have said that he was in love with her, fake persona or not, and that he had moved on from Emma. A common theme with SF is that they gave up on each other – Emma in Tallahassee and Neal with Tamara. They didn’t fully move on – but they did give up. That is not TL. Anyway, the fact that Neal hasn’t dealt with the whole Tamara thing and is running around professing his love for Emma irks me a lot. I don’t think Tamara has been laid to rest – Tink has her watch after all. To me that means that Neal will soon find out that his ex-fiancé is dead.

He also seems to be attempting to fool himself with his reasons for letting Emma go. When he was telling Mulan in 3×01 he phrased it in the best possible way for himself – that he let her go to fulfil her destiny. No mention of abandoning her. No mention of the fact that he was also trying to run from his father.

In 3×03 he was saying he wanted another chance. But he had more than one chance to go back to her – 2 that I can think of, and he had several chances while he was in SB to tell her his real feelings. Do you think Charming would have passed up on those chances to make it up to Snow? Do you think Killian would have? Because I don’t think they would have. Once they had their second chance they would have taken it.

But if only one of them can break it doesn’t that kind of say that she is choosing to love one over the other? For the kiss to work the feeling has to be mutual right? That’s why I like it because both Neal and Hook care about Emma but for the kiss to work only the one she loves can save her.

I can see how people would think that but I don’t see it that way. I want her to make a conscious choice. I want her to struggle over letting him in, letting down her walls completely to him. I want to see both of them come to depend on each other emotionally, and in all other ways.

I don’t want to see Emma’s “choice” being made in the form of TLK. I really don’t, because the writers have emphasised to us so much Emma’s choice has been taken away from her so many times, and that she hates that. And TLK would be another way of taking away her conscious choice. Ugh, the thought of Neal and Killian queuing up over her cursed body to kiss her – just ugh. UGH. I don’t like it. Sorry, that’s just my opinion….

Anyway choice is a CS theme – “I’d pick you” “You chose her”. To solve her TL dilemma via curse would be completely taking away from that theme, which I don’t believe the writers will do.

Yes, they have- However, they do consider changing things up depending on how it’s received (ie changing who Neal was & Mulan- I forget the couple of other things now). It might not be for major plot stuff (well ok Neal’s story is),but it is still to service the fans. Logically you also have to consider that we haven’t got to the end of the season yet, none of us know what they have in store for Neal in the back half- for all we know Emma & Neal could end up trapped somewhere together in the 2nd half *shudders*- who knows lol.

But that’s the thingggggggggggggggggg. Neal’s story ISN’T major plot stuff in my opinion. Neal is NOT A MAIN CHARACTER. He’s a supporting character. That’s it. The fact that A+E said that they don’t do fan service for their OVERALL storyline means that their integral parts to the story aren’t all that expendable. Whereas, they considered making Baelfire and Neal two different people – that’s HUGE. Neal is expendable. His story is not congruent to the overall arc. He didn’t even get a proper poster, we don’t know what his NL arc is, apart from some vague “second chance” thing. But second chance at what? With Emma or with Rumple? I’m leaning towards Rumple. Because that’s the relationship that Pan attacked. The media are all talking about CS, the kiss got over two weeks promotion for goodness sake. Whenever Swanfire is mentioned it’s “the fans should be worried”. We’re getting a SF reunion this week, but the focus is all on Killian, what Killian is going to do, how Killian is going to handle it. In a real romantic triangle, both of the men vying for the woman, or vice versa get equal media and episode time. Compared to CS, we have heard SQUAT about SF. And this is done on purpose. As to the fact that we don’t know what’s coming for Neal is the second half? Well to my mind that doesn’t matter. They are trying to establish a “triangle” in this half of the season. I don’t give a hoot about what they give us about Neal in the next half. The fact that they are very clearly promoting Killian first and foremost says it all to me.

Ugh, this triangle thing is so exhausting…. sorry if I got overly vehement….

[Captain Eala]

But for someone who was always criticizing his father for making the wrong choices (power over family and love) he certainly never learned how to take his own advice and he never learned how to learn from his own mistakes. He may have left NL and physically grown older but I don’t think he ever grew up. The other characters may all struggle with doing the right thing and may falter back and forth but they ALL seem to learn from their mistakes and want to improve. With Neal I feel like he thinks he is just fine the way he is and doesn’t need to change. I don’t think he even recognizes that he has issues – I think he only sees other people’s issues – primarily his father’s. He may say he loves Emma and Henry but he doesn’t seem motivated enough by either of them to want to make changes.

YES. Myself and MysteryKat were discussing Neal’s hypocrisy after “Nasty Habits” and how Neal does immoral things and yet holds his father up to some lofty standard that he doesn’t really have. Sure he doesn’t kill people. But he has done things that have hurt people.

And YES Neal thinks he doesn’t need to change, he’s “Neal” now, not “Baelfire”. It really disturbed me when he didn’t even think to question his choice when he decided that Roland was the best way to get to NL.

Neal hasn’t even considered trying to JOIN the rest of the group to help, even when he knows that they think he is dead!!! He doesn’t seem to even care that Emma would be heartbroken thinking he is dead. He doesn’t even seem to consider himself part of Henry’s “family” – he is just doing everything on his own.

I personally feel you’re being a bit hard on him here, but that’s just me. I think Nasty Habits was actually the only episode I reasonably liked him in (except for taking away his fathers choice). And I’m sure he was on the way to the rest of the group when he met Rumple.

I have an awful feeling he’s going to expect Emma to run into his arms and they’ll be a couple again straight away. I could be wrong here. But i feel like he’s hanging on to his and Emma’s relationship (he never fully got closure either) because he doesn’t want to deal with the fact that Tamara, the woman he moved on with and was genuinely in love with, betrayed him and never loved him. The way he had his hands over their campfire and was like “Emma” in this happy eager voice – he seems to be forgetting or not acknowledging all the hurt he caused her. Even on the beach when he apologised to her last season – the apology was all about him, his regrets, and not the extreme pain and anguish he caused Emma. He wanted to feel better about himself.

Then you have Hook who isn’t Henry’s father but wants to help save Henry because of Emma. He also WANTS to grow as a person and has learned from his mistakes. He is mature enough to have learned from the past and because of that he can make decisions that help save David and Henry, and he is being supportive or what Emma needs. Everything he does he does for Emma, yet because they are so well suited for each other as he does things to help her he also ends up growing and learning himself and becoming a better man, which in turn makes Emma more impressed with him which gives him more confidence.

Lalalalalala. There’s the whole “partnership”, “TL makes you a better person” and “TL changes you” things again. And it applies to both Killian and Emma.

Keeper of Captain Swan's first kiss

[Captain Eala]

@ Captain Eala – WOW, was that really the stats of the FB page for Good Form & the Kiss! (I have kept off of all but 2 or 3 trusted sites/pages since there was so much Hook bashing going on before the season started & I got sick of it all). That is amazing & pretty much shows what most the fans/viewers want, so that to me is even more of an indicator than anything else- they’d risk loosing a massive chuck of the fandom by resolving Hook/Killian with a side character & phasing him out (my worst nightmare for the show- I LOVE Hook/Killian lol).

But you see this is the beauty of it. A+E have made it more than clear that they don’t do fan service i.e. they’re not going to change their original story just because it’s something the fans want. SO logically you can follow up on this by saying that they’re going to write characters and stories in such a way to have people rooting for a certain character over another eg. Hook over Neal. They have made Killian into a fully rounded character, with a story and experiences. Whereas with Neal? Nada.

If their intention has been (and i doubt it very much) to make us love both Killian AND Neal and root for them equally, well they’ve been doing it wrong, and are continuing to do so. I’m not completely certain but i’m nearly sure that “Good Form” had the highest viewership of the season so far, because of Killian and the CS kiss. And “Nasty Habits” has had the worst viewership so far, because of Neal.

I do feel Hook/Killian should be there for her in the best friend role, if they don’t further the CS plot this season, at least then no one could say it’s just a ‘fling’ for Hook…. Or Emma.

No I wouldn’t like them to be best friends… not at all. But it’s redundant anyway because it isn’t the direction they’re going for with Emma and Killian. Charming and Killian yes.

Lol – they are going to further the CS plot this season, don’t worry. Emma could not have been more transparent with her “one-time thing” (lololololol yeah right Emma). Killian said “as you wish” – you do not say that without the connotation of love, i’m sorry, you don’t.

I guess I REALLY want Emma to have love like Snowing has (not the same as Snowing- although now I actually think about it CS & Snowing situations & even characters to a certain extent, are VERY similar lol), but the same depth & loyalty from her eventual partner as Snow has from Charming. I just really feel she deserves it & Killian fits that bill exactly!

I love the way you used partner there, because Killian and only Killian fits that bill for her. Over and over this season the writers and directors have paired them up with each other, emphasising that they are a team, just like Snowing. Again, intentional. Although, the body language when Neal comes back into the picture will be interesting to analyse…..

Aw! Maybe we should consider starting a new thread soon? Volume 2 of Captain Swan! Perhaps the next thread could be located under the character section since that’s where most of the ‘shipper threads are located?

I don’t mind, whatever everyone wants to do. But either way it’s going to jump back to page 1 after 100 pages, so unless we keep starting new threads, we’re going to have a lot of them (since you know, we talk a lot – lol!). Actually i’d probably prefer to have just the one, so there’s no confusion and so old threads don’t get buried. But that’s just me!

Keeper of Captain Swan's first kiss

[Captain Eala]

I had this interesting thought I wanted to run by my fellow shipmates. What if Pan forces Emma into a sleeping curse which as we know requires true love’s kiss to break. So then at that point either Hook or Neal’s kiss will be what saves her?!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. This is not what I want for her. I want her to make the choice. Maybe that’s just me?? I’ve seen this thought floating around before and i really dislike it.

Now, AFTER she makes the choice i’d be happy for a curse to be broken via TLK, because we know who’ll break it hehe. But not before she chooses.

I also agree all the clues point to CaptainSwan as end game (but not in a SwanQueen/its just us CS fans seeing what we want to see- if that makes sense?!), it’s just hard sometimes because it is disney we are dealing with (as a platform) & I’m hoping Adam & Eddy dont go all ‘bio family’ only = happy ever after, for main character Emma.

No it’s not just us seeing what we want to see haha! There are a lot of normal fans out there rooting for CS (I have a friend who likes them, but she rolls her eyes at my obsession, they’re not like us crazy shippers hehe), but most people just don’t enter the actual fandom. For instance on the OUAT facebook page, the “Good Form” post got 120,000+ likes and the CS kiss got 60,000+ likes! This is compared to “Nasty Habits” post which got 30/40k likes. I think we know what the fans want! Lol. Anyway, ultimately, most people are interpreting Emma’s HE to be Killian rather than Neal. It’s clear from the numbers.

No way are A+E going to go with the whole cliche “happy family” trope. No way. And people forget, that even if SF IS endgame (lol) then Regina is left out. I don’t think that’s fair. Anyway, look at Mulan’s current storyline – her character at the moment is FAR outside Disney norms. So no, they won’t necessarily go with the traditional route.

The biggest thing for me, which makes me very hopeful of CS as endgame, is Neal just isnt that likable most the time (IMO)- I just cant connect or sympathize with him as a character, which has to be done on purpose surely?!

Oh definitely. As far as i’m concerned, if they can make me like Rumple then they can make me like Neal if they want to. But they don’t. He’s little more than a plot device (see previous page for a link to an essay discussing this) to create angst and be an obstacle to Captain Swan. Honestly, we haven’t even had ONE backstory episode for him, where it just focuses on him, the father of Henry, and we’re supposed to think he and Emma are TL? No. It would take a heck of a lot of character development for Neal for me to accept a SF endgame, which I don’t believe the current plot allows for.

To be honest, i’ve said it before, but this “triangle” to me is nothing more than a big, thick black line between Emma and Killian, and broken lines connecting both of them to Neal. I don’t think they’re going to drag it out, it’s not The Vampire Diaries or anything where the storyline relies on a triangle. It would drag the whole plot down if it goes on too long. So i think it’s going to be dealt with fully this season, and Emma will choose Killian.

Maybe it’s just because I really dont feel someone carrying the amount of emotional scaring/damage that Emma has been shown as having, from what happened between her relationship with Neal (no matter what Neal’s intentions- I’m simply talking about what Emma FELT, Thought & lived for over a decade), should have it all magically swept away enough, that they can then go live ‘happily ever after’- there are simply some wounds that are just to deep/ have done too much damage, for to long, for one to ever ‘get over it’ with that person, in order to have the level of trust & vulnerability that TL &/or “happy ever after” requires IMO.

YES.

I will point out that I think forgiving her parents for sending her through the wardrobe, is very different to what Neal did- I dont see them as being the same at all, other than both causing her emotional damage- her parents had no idea what the out come of her growing up would be, it wasnt something they foresaw or could control, they just knew she would live & come to save them all (so I think her forgiving them for doing that is a given- it’s something she might do too, if it meant saving Henry & thousands of lives), however Neal knew what he was doing, knew how damaged she was from feeling unloved & abandoned, yet still did what he did anyway, despite how it would affect Emma (that’s not something I can see Emma choosing to do to someone when there are other options).

YES. Completely agree that they’re two different situations.

However,I do believe that Emma will forgive Neal, but that doesn’t mean that trust is INSTANTLY restored, or ever will be. If it was me, no way.

Lol- yes Neal coming back will = a massive “stuff storm” , I’m actually fine with that (I wont like it, but I’m fine with it)- as I say Emma needs to thrash things out with Neal & either try again or not with him, in order for her to lay that part of her life to rest, accept it & move on with more healthy relationships

I actually can’t wait for the “triangle”. It’s going to hurt, sure. But in the end, in Emma’s eyes, only one of them will be found wanting, and it won’t be Killian 🙂

I will try to have more confidence in the writers & creators- so far they are pushing CS as a good thing for Hook & I hope soon for Emma too, I think when I see Emma starting to open up & trust more around Hook/Killian, I will be 100% confident about the creators & writers doing our CS as endgame.

To be honest the fact that Emma kissed Killian at all is proof that he is good for her. It’s been so long since she kissed someone she had feelings for, let someone in. And Killian is the one who inspired Emma to trust again. So it’s already a good thing for her in my eyes!

INFINITY%  CONFIDENCE 😉 if they’re not endgame I will cut off my right hand, lol.

Keeper of Captain Swan's first kiss

[Captain Eala]

I was surprised we got a kiss so soon into S3- I was worried at 1st (like this was our ‘treat’ before going all out SwanFire, but that doesnt seem to be the case & I’m still hoping for a Captain Swan endgame.

Hello! To be honest after 3×02 I fully expected the kiss. Once I watched 3×02 again with my “analysis” goggles on and combined with things JMo had said in an interview I was pretty sure we were to expect it. And I wasn’t disappointed!

It’s so funny, because we’re told over and over again that we overanalyse everything and yet we’ve been right nearly all of the time. I wasn’t officially part of the fandom in season 2 but I did predict that Hook would act like a hero in 2×22, ESPECIALLY after fighting Malificent in “The Evil Queen” because fighting dragons (she wasn’t technically a dragon but whatever) is ALWAYS the mark of a hero. ALWAYS.

*whispers* Captain Swan is definitely endgame and you don’t need to worry because from week to week all the clues/signs point that way 😉 and even though Neal is coming back and there will be a drama stuffstorm that doesn’t make it any less true!!!

Keeper of Captain Swan's first kiss

[Captain Eala]

@karlsjr – welcome to the thread!!!! *passes over rum*

karlsjr wrote: Emma agreed to let Regina rip out the lost boys heart. Killian had to watch Milah’s heart be ripped out in front of him, so I can’t imagine that he approves of the practice. How is he going to feel towards Emma for her part in the heart ripping out?

That is a very good question. I’d imagine that Hook would be angry with her for letting Regina do that, but hopefully he’d understand that it wasn’t done with evil intentions behind it. It was so they could get word to Henry that they were coming for him.

I for one DON’T hold it against Emma that she ripped out Devin’s heart. She has always walked in moral shades of grey, and she means Devin no harm. She’s just doing what she said she would do – stomaching the use of a villains skills in order to save Henry.

Since Killian ripped out Aurora’s heart to achieve his own ends, he can hardly be angry Emma for doing the same thing, as it was for far purer motives. And he knows better than anyone the lengths she’ll go to for her son – she left him chained up at the top of a beanstalk after all. And that was because she was going against her own instincts.

And we have to remember that even Snow approved of the heart-ripping plan in the end (but that scene was soooo intense it was crazy) and she is the epitomy of goodness (despite the Cora blip lol).

karlsjr wrote: But back to my Milah theories, she came into his life when he was at the high point to pirating. It seems to me that she was better for his bad side. Like the Rumple/Cora/Belle relationships. Cora/Milah brought out the bad, and Belle/Emma bring out the good.

OMG, I love this analysis. Another beautiful parallel with Rumbelle. It’s true with CS. Emma makes Hook want to be a better person. Everything he’s done since the finale when he came back, all of it has been for Emma. Even Charming acknowledged in this past episode that Hook is there because for her.

I have to say I love this analysis too! BUT it has been assumed that Killian was truly in love with Milah so it doesn’t parallel Cora/Rumple directly. Although i’m finding it harder and harder to believe that Killian and Milah were TL.

On the drinking thing, I’m finding it so interesting. I think Pan has actually caused Killian’s drinking problem (weird, I know) but the line

Have a drink. You know it always helps you think.

seriously creeped me out. I’m wondering if Pan isn’t somehow keeping Killian’s rum flask filled somehow using the magic of Neverland. Or maybe Killian BELIEVES (as we know belief is a big thing this season) he needs the drink and thus the flask is refilling itself. I don’t know. It may never be resolved.

Keeper of Captain Swan's first kiss

[Captain Eala]

I know!!!! I saw this! Could Colin be any MORE adorable? Seriously. My poor heart can’t take it.

Keeper of Captain Swan's first kiss

[Captain Eala]

Hi fellow shippers! I haven’t written in the forums for a while, but I have been checking out this thread and there are always some great points you all make! I shipped Swanfire most of last season, but the season 2 finale really got me thinking about Hook in a new way. I saw the capacity he has to really care for someone (he was willing to give up everything for Bae) and that he was more than just a flirty pirate. Underneath that flirtatious exterior is a true heart that loves deeply. After season 2 ended, I started to think that he could be a true contender for Emma’s heart.

That’s awesome!!! Welcome to the ship! 😉 *passes over rum*

I’m not against Neal. (I think he’s a good character….although I do agree with a lot of that essay about Neal being a plot device. It would be nice if we could connect with that character a bit more. MRJ’s acting is fantastic! So, it’s definitely just the storyline.)

I’m not against Neal, but I definitely don’t care about him much, and get quite annoyed at him sometimes. I hope he gets his happy ending in much the same way I hope that Grumpy for example does. I like Grumpy more than Neal actually, he’s had development of his character haha.

It is definitely just the storyline, but I also feel like it’s on purpose. I’ve said it a few times before, but it feels like the writers are creating the personality disconnect between Neal and Baelfire on purpose, because they’re such skilled writers, ESPECIALLY when it comes to characterisation.

However, past mistakes aside, I don’t think Neal challenges Emma quite like Hook does.

I don’t think Neal LOVES Emma quite like Hook does, but that’s just my opinion hahaha.

One thing that makes me sad for Hook is that he has no one that loves him.

MY POOR BABY

So, I’d like to see him have someone truly love him and help bring him back to the man he was before.

Yep, and that’s Emma 😉

Thinking back to when Cora tried to rip Emma’s heart out and told her that love is weakness, Emma replied that love is strength. Thus proving just how much Emma can love and just how powerful it is.

Lol, when I think of that scene all I can remember is how Killian was conveniently unconscious and didn’t see that Emma couldn’t have her heart ripped out….

I think Hook and Emma are a great match, but who knows where the writers will go! I hope they end up together eventually. Guess we’ll have to wait and see.

LOL – I know where the writers are going. But I think myself and obisgirl are the only ones here who are truly convinced that they’re endgame.

@Stelio Kontos – I’m not convinced they are, BUT I’M MORE THAN HAPPY TO BE PROVED WRONG haha

Keeper of Captain Swan's first kiss

[Captain Eala]

pretty good points actually

Yeah, because I’ve always wondered why I could never really bond or empathise with Neal as a character – Bae for sure, but never Neal. Now I know why!

Keeper of Captain Swan's first kiss

[Captain Eala]

Hm, this is very interesting to say the least….

http://nenny89.tumblr.com/post/65530608660/nealfire-the-plot-device

Keeper of Captain Swan's first kiss

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