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Surayya
Lololol I think we are stuck in a timeloop SUR, we keep going back and forth over the same things. I guess it is also a matter of belief. You have to be able to believe that Emma is the same Emma in both AR and OR but split in two different personalities and two different timelines. OR Emma has no memory of AR Emma because OR Emma is living on the Original Timeline (Cool OR works both for Old Reality and Original Reality) AR Emma HAS the memories of OR Emma embedded in her because AR Emma WAS OR Emma and she lived that life before the one she is living now. And when AR Emma makes things right on Twister Day, she seizes to exist in that timeline, because now the Original timeline starts back up again, and she is not born yet here, but at the same time AR Emma will become part of OR Emma on the day in the future, when things are set right. Yes this acquires belief and most likely magic and can not be explained scientificly, not yet anyway ;).
Let me just say that Ive highlighted your comments that Ive quoted from your posts, because I always screw up with the quoting system.
SUR_So if Cora doesnt give up baby Z, she doesnt become royalty.
It was Wiz Walsh that told Z, Cora gave her up, because Z could not make her a royal. He could have been lying or not understand what he saw in his mirror. In this theory Cora never gives up Z, Emma steals Z from Cora and puts Regina in Z’s place disguised as Z. Cora never knows she has a different daughter.SUR_For the timeline to function as it has in OR, Cora needs to marry Henry, but she couldnt marry Henry IF she already had another child (Z) in tow
Ofcouse he could still marry her?? lots of people marry even if they have children. And Henry was a kind man.. if he started out loving Cora or maybe wanting to “save” her from a life as a cast out single mother, he would marry her.
SUR_See, my understanding here is you’ve just created a whole new reality, rather than staying true to the ‘actual’/OR timeline we already have & this is where you loose & confuse me on your “one timeline/loop theory” & “one Emma thing” lol- we either have to have 1 timeline, that gets course corrected back to normal by someone time traveling back & stopping Z from actually achieving altering whatever it is she wants to alter in the 1st place – so the altered event NEVER happens & our timeline stays in tact, but the characters whom travel back are developed more & plot are moved forward by their experience
Think of the AR as a side road. Now imagine all our characters walking down the main road together, the main road is the OR. They meet Z, Who tells them to go back a part of the road and take a left turn, they do so and when they have walked down that side road for a while Emma notices that it’s a dead end , so she tells them all they have to go back to the main road again. Now imagine that cross in the road splitting the two roads is magic and as soon as they all start walking down the side road, non but Emma has any memory of ever being on the main road, but they still all were, they just don’t remember.Now the cool paradoxy thing begins, when we imagine that the main road can not actually be walked without them having walked on the side road ones before. Because in order for Z to have become Z and Regina to have become Regina they would have had to already been both versions of themselves. Z had to have lived in Oz but to have been send there, Emma had to have already remembered the Original Reality-Or the main Road. So Which was the first raod? Non of them were right? So they sort of have to have happened in the same time and because of eachother.
This is a paradox yes. And not one allowed by scientists in our world. Scientists would laugh and dismiss it and say “hrmpfh well that’s just not possible.” But hey, what do they know 😉 this is where belief again comes in the picture. We have to believe it is somehow possible for Emma to be both at the same time- Well Einstein said it was possible 😉
SUR_Or we get a different timeline, because a slightly altered version of events does actually take place when Z is successful (AR or grandfather paradox are at work here- not loop)- ie. Z isnt Regina, so Z will not make all the exact same decisions as Regina made in her life & even if by some plot device, Z did make exactly the same choices/decisions as Regina did & events proceeded EXACTLY as they do in OR (but Z just replaces Regina), how would Emma remember something that happened before she even came into existence? Because she (or anyone) shouldnt be able to remember stuff that hasn’t actually happened to them personally- It’s that whole cause before effect thing again.
Z wont have to make all the same choices as Regina. But Cora will have to make the same choice of sending Z to be married to Leo. Z only have to choose to drive Snow away from the castle. Actually she doesn’t even need to do that but Snow needs to end up in the forest somehow so she can meet Charming and have Emma. Emma remembering is addressed above.SUR_You are saying Z goes back & changes things so she takes Regina’s place. Therefore Z as we know her now, no longer exists- Rumple, Snowing, Emma, Henry etc no longer are the ‘same’ people we know & love, since they have now lead altered lives (because Z took Regina’s place). I’m with you here! (BUT this is NOT loop theory/paradox- it is grandfather paradox).
Yes, I realize now I might not be using the correct terms for all the different paradoxes. But I think what Im proposing is a sort of mash up of the time loop and the grandfather paradox. Because first Z changes the past and makes a different reality according to the grandfather paradox, but then because of Emma we take a u-turn straight back to the original reality. The loop starts with Z’s action changing time and the loop ends in Emma correcting it, so it’s a grandfather paradox within a timeloop.
But Ive found a big problem with this loop which I will address in a later post (How do we ever get further then to the day where Z starts the loop? Wont we always be stuck there going back everytime? And first go by the main road only to be redirected by Z, then go down the side road only to be redirected by Emma?? Lol funny :D)
I did a bit of research, and from what I read, it seems that science will dismiss it as soon as we call it a paradox, because according to science the universe will not allow for a paradox. So we cant really make this thing fit into scientific knowledge.
(I guess Im writing a novel here :O Im sorry for taking up all this space but this convo is so interesting I can not stop myself.)
SUR_This point here is where you loose me: Emma (who has been altered, as Z’s plans have been carried out, so this is a different version of events playing out to the actual version of events that should have happened in S1, S2 & S3a), somehow ‘magically” remembers a completely different version of events playing out-
Emma living in the AR has lived as Emma in the OR, because the OR happened. Think of a paper with words written on it. You can erase the words and write something different instead, but an imprint will be left underneath from the previous words.Sur_The only way time travel will make sense IMO- is if Z’s planed changes/alterations are not actually successful, thanks to the intervention of our hero/s stopping her- then if nothing else, those that stop her have their character/s developed further & that development in turn, could help drive the plot forward.
So it would look some like this:….
That could also happen. But it is not the only way.SUR_For the time loop theory you propose your theory is based on to work- Zelena can NEVER be successful in actually changing the time line (because loop theory/paradox = the past cant be changed from what it was, as it always happened that way), because if she is successful, she IS actually altering the timeline AWAY from what OR actually is, so the past as it should have happened, wouldn’t have happened & the characters are altered from their OR state as a result of that- if that makes sense? This is what confuses me most with your version of events, as how you have worded it, you are indeed creating a ‘different’ reality away from the one that actually happened.
Again it is also a matter of believe. If you don’t want to believe two versions of Emma is actually the same- and that a timeline which is erased indeed still happened- and that Z can succeed in changing the timeline, but also have to have failed the same attempt once before- Then Its not going to work. And I understand if you don’t want to believe in these possibilities, because science after all tells us differently.What I am saying is “Science don’t have all the correct answers yet, so lets explore the possibility” and this is a fantasy story, as you said, it is not a science PHD. We have to make it work, only within the context and rules of the story. But that said, I have found it very enjoyable and thoughtprovokingly-mindbending, to have this long discussion on the workings of time with you :)so thanks for it.
[adrotate group="5"]Wow I’m so confused by this discussion.
But from what I did understand- My headcanon is that Zelena never succeeds to do the spell, but if she does than it makes sense that whatever changes she does were already changed in her own past. I remember I read a few days ago a discussion here about the fact that the tornado that took baby Zelena to Oz was green, just like her own magic. It makes perfect sense that she creates that tornado to take baby Regina to Oz instead of her but the tornado ends up taking baby Zelena and causing all the events that we see now.
Yes thats exactly it!
That part about Regina being the Snowing baby… I don’t like it. I think Henry’s family tree is complicated enough…
True very complicated indeed. I know lots of people wouldnt like Regina being Snowflake. But IMO it makes perfect sence and I loves it 🙂
It is possible for Emma to exist in this AR- Snowing is true love and I believe they will meet and fall in love even if Snow doesn’t escape from Regina (this reminds me of Alice’s speech to Jafar for those who saw OUATIW). And if the creators need her to remember this reality than they will find some excuse for that so that’s not a problem.
Lol… 🙂 yep writers will make it Work.
Sur- I’ll reply to the rest tomorrow- long wonderful day, I have to be up early for more horsing & I have to read before going to bed (Im too ocd not to read lol :p ) & it’s almost 10pm already!
Looking forward to it 🙂
But that theory I pointed out, is the ‘actual’ working scientific understanding of timelines/parallel realities/AR- it isnt actually fan made mumbo jumbo
I was using it to point out just having a reality pop into existence or having someone simply cease to exist wasnt really going to work logically & since time travel is based in SciFi & not fantasy, it needs to based in science to ‘work/function’ plausibly IMO, other wise it’s not really time travel, it’s more a convenient plot device to flop out when needed & borderline jumping the shark for a fantasy drama. Using the actual Scientific understanding of multible universes is alright, but I dont think its neccesary in trying to understand timetravel in Once’s universe. Since Once is a faitytale in which people are able to make giant cupcakes appear in their hand out of thin air.. I mean actual real World science dont really aply here 😉
By making timetravel (or timeloopy glitches) logical in a fantasy story, doesnt mean it has to Work under our real World natural Laws. We only need to make it Work within the stories logic Laws. And so Im asking what about the time-loop doesnt Work under the stories natural logic and law?
Time-loop wouldnt be possible under the multible universe theory you point out. But what about the theory I propose is unlogical under the Once universe Laws?
What do you mean by saying that because Once is a fantasy show they cant do timetravel, because that belongs in SciFi ? Thats like saying a Romantic movie may never involve any action because that belongs in Action movies!!! people/writers/movie makers merge these Things all the time and why shouldnt they?
I think that Emma’s price could be many things 1. i definitely agree with the saviour archetype theory they have only called ehr that 50 times. 2. However, we have seen many grow addicted to magic because it is power, our saviour who through much of her life has been a victim of others’ designs would sense this ultimate control she has and become more addicted to it, I could see her being warned by Snow and David but Regina and Rumple don’t recognize the early signs until its too late.
Yes I can see that happening. That would be awsome.
The price for the magic of the blue fairy is never havinga proper backstory,.
LOL LOL!!!!! 😀
Can I just say Again how much I love this convo the 3 of us are having here 🙂 very interesting, fun, strange and mindbending.. love love love !! Come join us lurkers!
RG- What we need is “Action X”
Action X = the action that Zelena wants to undo. We’re assuming it’s Regina’s birth but things can still play out as they did even if Regina isn’t born (fate, destiny, whatever you wanna call it).
So Action X has to be something that drastically alters EVERYTHING.
This is one reason Why Regina being the Snowflake would Work perfectly. If Regina is the baby send to Oz she wont get in the way of Z and Cora being mother daughter. Z doesnt know that Regina is the Snowflake, which is why she want to steal her Heart in present day Storybrook, so she can curse her out of existence in her AR, but that wont Work because Regina is never born in AR 🙂
Action X The action Z want undone. Okay, So we must also consider how much does she know? how much of her knowledge of the past is correct? And if some of it is incorrect, how does that then effect her AR and is that some of the reason her AR ends up not working so well for her???
phew! this is so hard to explain. I wish I could Draw it on a piece of paper for you, sometimes Visuals is an easier way for me to explain.
Hey I wanna go with to that Beach too!!
The problem you propose with Emmas birth in the AR, I dont understand. Because sure, if it happens the way you propose “Cora is fond of her daughter Z and never marries her of to Leo, because Z is enough for her” etc. Then yes, Emma wouldnt be born. But thats assuming it happens that way.
What I am doing, to make the time-loop theory Work, is assume that Cora’s actions was still the same concerning her daughter, even if her daughter was Z. And it IS very posible for Cora to act the same way she did when Regina was the daughter.
Grimmsistr wrote: Because OR Emma tricked Z and kept her magic, AR Emma will remember life as her OR self- Thus being able to, by magic Means, travel back in time to the day of the Twister and make the reverse baby switch.Sur- My problem with this is you have 2 different, distinct & separate timelines/realities- ie. ‘Bob1′ from OR & ‘Bob2′ from AR are 2 Different people (who simply happen to look the same), they had different, separate & distinct experiences in their respective timelines. So Bob2 can not ‘experience’ Bob1′s life history- you can not ‘recall’ lives you have not lived yourself.
No Emma is still Emma, and she has the memories of OR Emma imbedded in her, because she has her strong magic she will remeber. Think of it as like a reincarnation or like people saying they remember their past lives- same thing in a way. It would be possible for Emma to remember, because she has already lived the life in the OR only to be taken back by Z’s curse to start life over and live it in a different way.
You can not completely seperate the two timelines. Z’s AR World is a timeline that starts and ends WITHIN the normal Worlds timeline, like a glitch. Think of an old music LP record, sometimes that needle thing playing the music would get stuck and jump back a bit, now imagine the music playing differently this time, singer singing different Words, until the needle was back at the point of the glitch, it jumps alittle and then plays on with the original tune. this would all have happened on the same LP record. Okay I know that analogy doesnt explain a time-loop in Once, but it was just a nice Little image to Draw the timeline-loop, since I dont have paper to Draw and explain.
sur- IF you have different timeline you HAVE to HAVE different Versions of the same people within those timelines- remember you cant create a “new” reality that only starts from the moment something different happens- it has to have a history of events with-in it leading up to that moment,
you keep talking about there being two different realities. And I keep saying there is only one reality. If Z goes back in time to her baby-Hood (in the one and only reality) alteres what happened on that particular day, she changes the history of that reality- ergo Altered Reality or AR. She doesnt create a new distinct reality seperate from the one she lives in, because yes that would not mean anything to her own self and just be useless. She alteres her own reality-
After that, events take place, we have to assume that events take place in an order that makes Emmas birth possible- and that is not impossible. We could also think up all kinds of different orders of events which doesnt make Emmas birth possible, but that would be useless, so why do it if we are trying to make the Time-loop Work?
Z lives her life as Regina Up until the day that Emma, having remembered OR because she has magic and this Emma is like a new reincarnation of OR Emma, not a different version, but old Emma taken back in time by Z’s time-curse. So Emma remembers, and sets in motion the events that will stop the time-loop.
Sur- I think I need to point out here that the working theory for time travel is that there are multiple realities, all co-existing at the same time, each once different & distinct from the others due to the millions of different combinations of sequences of events that alter each individuals lives for the better or worse. Therefore every individual has their “own” set of AR timelines made up of the different choices they & others make during their life time/s,
Thats a Whole different way of seing it and I guess if you set your mind on this being the only possible way for a story on time travel to be told, then, yes Z’s actions would be useless, because she would just be creating a different Little Z and not changing her own past. But Again that is not what happens in my version of it.
But if she knows that, then she would also know that the contract was broken when they rewrote it.
But she needs Rumple to not be dimless because AR Zelena still needs a teacher.
Well thats true…hmmm problems problems :/
But in other news OMG!! RG! that Screwball Ninja essay you posted on the sneak thread http://screwballninja.tumblr.com/post/62363283978/the-one-ouat-essay-you-have-to-read-ready-for
fits with this theory. Quote essay-“Everyone compulsively re-enacts their greatest trauma, each time trying to change the outcome or turn it into a source of ‘strength.” Thats what Z is doing trying to change her past, but ending up reenacting it over and over in the time-loop :O
No doubt in my mind anymore this has to happen in some form or another, either with Regina as the snowflake or not.
When in doubt, quote Screwball
OH LOL and ROFL and everything inbetween!!!! That was awsome and brilliant, funny and insightfull 😀 I had never seen that essay. Great thing you put it here RG!! Thank you <3
